English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

00:04

Yo yo.

tchrist

00:21

I give up. I have no idea what crawled up Edwin’s backside and died.

His latest peevery is completely confusing.

I don’t know whether to close it as unclear, or to have it sent off to meta, or closed as opinion based, or closed as too broad. Or what.

I have a suspicion, but I don’t like it.

All I know is that I have enough of his nugifrivolous Edwin-Ashworthizing of ELU through pointless quibbling.

He should just man up and post his own answers.

But no, it is always easier to bitch about the work other people are doing than to lift a finger to actually build something on your own.

-1

Q: Has the word productivity (as used in linguistics) different senses that can be confusingly conflated?

In a recent discussion about the legitimacy of coining new words, a comment was made along the lines of any noun may have -ize/-ise added as a suffix, to convert it into a verb; Wikipedia says that the process is productive: free, limitless. Is that not a confusing of the two senses of the ligui...

I wish Lawler were here. He could thank Edwin for all his nominations for consideration by the Academy.

Then we could move on while we wait for the Academy to get back to him.

By which I time I shall be happily dead.

I am anything but prone to blindly trust anybody who makes claims of illegitimacy with respect to a native speaker’s creativity with his own language.

Cerberus

Hmm.

tchrist

@TRiG Another way of looking at that is from the point of view that meself is nothing but a pronunciation spelling of an alternate pronunciation of myself. English has always had speakers who pronounce my and myself as though they were written me and meself. That doesn’t mean they weren’t still using the same word.

I honestly do not understand what he’s all hot and bothered by.

Yes, I believe that productive affixes like un-, non-, and -ize are freely applicable to create new derived words out of existing ones of the right class. Sure, there are a few places where such things are blocked, but that’s just quibbling.

I don’t know why this has upset him.

I do know that people speak of Kerberized applications without the batting of a single eyelash anywhere in the entire world.

And that one doesn’t need a permission slip from His Nugiloquence to do so.

But he is really mad about it.

Cerberus

I don't really understand the question, in the sense that the two definitions do not clash in any way that I can see, and the quotation that uses the term is perfectly clear to me. I don't understand the problem or what you want to know. — Cerberus 13 secs ago

tchrist

Non-native speakers do not need graduate research in diachronic linguistics and corpus analytics just to have simple questions answered.

Cerberus

@tchrist I don't know why you think he should be mad?

Frankly, I understand your comment no more than his question.

tchrist

00:36

I believe that he ought not be wroth with me.

Cerberus

I see nothing in the question to cause your anger.

I see no anger in his question towards you.

I think you should consider deleting that comment.

tchrist

Fine.

Cerberus

Thanks.

tchrist

This answer is biased because it is based on a selective (and I'd say unwarranted) underlying definition of the terms 'word' and 'productive'. — Edwin Ashworth 16 hours ago

Your views are not the only ones, though you rarely accept that others may be preferable, or acknowledge them only dismissively. Here is a fairer overview of the situation from about education: "Sometimes 'nonce-formation' is restricted to linguistically irrelevant, quirky stylistic 'novelties'; sometimes it is seen as fully representative of the system of word-formation defining 'possible words.'" (Pavol Štekauer and Rochelle Lieber, Handbook of Word-Formation. Springer, 2005) — Edwin Ashworth 6 hours ago

@EdwinAshworth I must be missing your point (which seems unnecessarily argumentative, and that may be the cause of my distraction). I don't see how your cited article conflicts with tchrist's inputs on the subject of nonce formation. It looks like unnecessary hair-splitting to me, but that could be a byproduct of trying to be concise. Maybe you can elaborate here in comments or in an answer also addressing the OP's question. What am I missing from your comment? — Jim 5 hours ago

@Jim I'm referring to the statement ' “productive” affixes, a word that means they can be used at will to create any which word the coiner desires.' I've placed a question addressing whether this statement is true, or whether the word 'productive' is being used here with a sense which is unlicensed. The use of 'highly productive affixes', 'slightly productive affixes', and 'no longer productive' affixes in say academic articles indicates, I'm convinced, that this is the case. — Edwin Ashworth 3 hours ago

He appears to have downvoted just about everything I have posted in the last few weeks.

Not everything.

But a lot.

How can that statement be wrong?

Productive affixes can be used to create new words at need.

Now he wants to quibble about whether some affixes are more or less productive than others.

Which of course, they are. But that is stupid.

Maybe it’s the -ize thing.

Maybe he hates versionize.

I don’t know.

And yes, it all seems unnecesssarily argumentative.

But that is nothing compared to a couple of other users, new ones, who write 5-page comment chains argying with people.

I need to find a new place to be.

Like look at this one:

Discussion on answer by Brillig: Exis…

Imported from a comment discussion on english.stackexchange.co...

Fortunately, mods are able to transplant entire rants to a chat room now.

And note that I am not even tangentially involved in any of that.

I have no stake in it.

But it is not conducive to comfort zones.

I spent about three hours tonight researching professional literature of affix productivity in English.

And I was an idiot to have bothered.

We had a serious hail storm here today.

Today I learned that just as each 1000 feet of elevation gain is like 3–5 degrees F cooler, it is also like being 600 miles further north.

So that is how to convert altitude to latitude.

Technically, it is 300 meters of altitude equates to 2 degrees C. Something like that.

It might well be that 300 meters of altitude therefore equals a megameter further north.

Wait, it that right?

Yeah, close enough:

macbook# units '600 miles' 'megameter'
	* 0.9656064
	/ 1.0356187

If 300 meters equates to 1000 kilometers, than each meter up is about 3 km north.

If 300 meters higher equates to 1000 kilometers more northwards, than each meter up is about 3 km north.

Oh strange. That was an edit.

Maybe I should use a different browser.

Things are moving but I cannot see anything.

Something is wedgied.

I can’t get the room to load.

I will be gone for a “long” time.

Oh there it is.

I am going away tomorrow.

If I’m not back in a week or so, I guess I got lost.

@iKlsR Hi, what’s up?

Mahnax

01:03

@tchrist Where to?

tchrist

A week orientation/training for the new job.

Mahnax

Right, that.

Hello, by the way.

My move-in is tomorrow.

tchrist

Hi.

I seem to be hypomanic.

Not liking it.

Seem to be being, I mean.

I can choose pain or craziness. I really hate that.

I wonder how things would change if all my parts were still tied together the way they are supposed to be.

Mahnax

Sorry to hear it. Feeling manic is not really my idea of a good time.

tchrist

Knees are a terrible thing to lose.

Cerberus

01:07

@tchrist Whither?

tchrist

No, it isn’t. I’m not one of those people who takes stimulants (legal or otherwise) to induce that condition, thinking it fun. Not fun.

Cerberus

Ah, a training.

We shall miss you.

tchrist

@Cerberus Pittsburgh, the only city in the nation to tell the feds to get stuffed when they demanded that all cities and towns ending in -burgh must change to -burg instead.

Mahnax

I like to feel calm and in control of myself, and when I feel different (whether because of anxiety or low blood sugar, or both) I don't like it at all.

tchrist

Oh.

Blood sugar.

Damn it.

I haven’t eaten since breakfast.

Mahnax

01:09

If I went a day without eating after breakfast, I'd be in the hospital.

You need some food, friend.

tchrist

Well, it was a late breakfast of heavy pizza.

I'm going to go feed and water myself and try herding the kitties inside since it will be dark in a while.

And pack.

Cerberus

@tchrist Huh, why did they tell them that?

tchrist

Because they didn’t like it.

It’s like how they made all towns remove the apostrophes from their names.

Only five resisted.

Mahnax

@tchrist Good idea. Have a good night.

tchrist

Of which Martha’s Vinyard was one.

Cerberus

01:10

Oh, I mean, why did they demand that?

tchrist

Because they thought it was dumb to have a silent letter at the end.

Cerberus

@Mahnax How about alcohol?

tchrist

So they told everybody to change it.

Cerberus

We did ditch our gh's.

tchrist

Nobody else stood up to them, and there was no enforcing power behind it.

Cerberus

01:12

If they have no power, then why do as they say?

Ok same here.

Mahnax

Yeah.

Are you still seeing that younger fellow?

Cerberus

I am!

He is sleeping now.

Mahnax

!! And living together?

tchrist

Well, there are no hamburghers.

Cerberus

Haha no.

Just little sleep-overs.

Mahnax

01:15

Ah, he's just over for now then. That's cute.

I'm happy for you two.

Cerberus

Yup.

Haha thanks.

Mahnax

I can't remember his name, but I know it was very Dutch.

Cerberus

How is your girl?

Yes, Rutger.

Mahnax

She's doing well. We're both just getting ready for university now.

Cerberus

Same university?

Mahnax

01:16

Yep.

Cerberus

Great!

Mahnax

Yeah! Very convenient.

Cerberus

Have you arranged a house for yourself yet?

Mahnax

Yes, I'm going to be living on-campus, in residence.

I move in tomorrow.

Cerberus

No apartment?

Will you have your own room?

Pretty exciting.

Mahnax

01:17

It's an apartment. Four rooms (with locks), two bathrooms, and a kitchen.

So we share the kitchen and bathrooms, but each get our own room.

Cerberus

Good!

Is the room-sharing only in America?

Mahnax

Pardon?

Room-sharing?

Oh, no. Some dorms are doubles, which means you sleep in the same room as someone.

Personally, I find the idea horrifying, but different strokes, I guess.

Cerberus

Yes, extremely horrifying.

Not to mention impractical.

Mahnax

Yeah. How are you supposed to lounge about in the nude 24/7 with someone watching you?

Cerberus

Exactly!

Not to mention pursuing other naked interests.

Mahnax

01:24

Yeah. Unless you and your dorm-mate are interested in each other. Then it's practical.

Push the beds together, and voilà.

Cerberus

~~Unless~~ only until you are no longer.

Mahnax

Ooh, that's true.

Imagine being forced to sleep in the same room as your ex.

Cerberus

Yeah.

Mahnax

That would make a hilarious movie.

Coming soon to theaters: Two Boys in a Dorm.

Cerberus

It happens to some couples who lived together at the time of the break-up. But with someone who has dumped you after two months, it's different.

Drama indeed.

Mahnax

01:29

Hmm. I should get back to packing. Bye!

Cerberus

Good luck!

Not that you'll need it.

Have fun!

user116848

How can I post my question from ELL to ELU or vice versa? Without duplicating it.

user116848

Do I delete it and ask again on the other site (e.g. ELL)?

tchrist

01:54

@Mahnax Probably it’s the lack of different strokes that makes it horrifying.

@Cerberus Remarkably common; scarily common.

@Mahnax You live in Canada; you are supposed to lounge around in parkas and igloo-dogs.

Cerberus

@tchrist Yeah I wonder what it would be like.

Some couple don't mind, apparently.

*couples

tchrist

02:10

I lived in a dorm my freshman year at college. It honestly wasn’t too bad.

Although we were two-to-a-room.

Cerberus

My mother lived in such a room for a few months too. But it was not in a dormitory: we do not have such things.

tchrist

I was on the tenth floor, boys’ wing. Turn left out of the vaders. Girls’ wing was turn right.

Cerberus

Just a student house where the inhabitants pick new ones when people leave.

tchrist

I had bunk-beds that my step-dad built for me and roomie.

Cerberus

She had to live in the worst room in the house before she could move up, and it was a shared room.

tchrist

02:12

Lots more room that way.

Cerberus

So little privacy!

tchrist

For what? Jerking off? The showers were not shared.

Unlike highschool. Ug.

I was paired with another small-town Scandihoovian valedictorian from elsewhere in the state, who was taking electrical engineering. I was taking Spanish and CompSci. Both of us were in the honors program. Tell me that was random, and I will sell you beachfront property in Cortez.

user116848

@Cerberus Is there a way i can move my post to ELU?

tchrist

@Arrowfar No.

You have to delete and repost.

user116848

okay. thanks

Cerberus

02:17

@Arrowfar You could flag it, maybe a mod would do it for you. Not sure. Deleting and reposting is probably faster.

tchrist

“Beach-front property in Cortez” is a Colorado-only expression. Well, or at least Four Corners. It’s in the 4C desert area.

Cerberus

Scandihoovian?

How about for protecting your naked self from a stranger's eyes?

tchrist

@Cerberus It means Scandiwhoever.

Cerberus

When you're sick or smelly or have to make noise?

When the other person has to be or do those things?

When you or the other person wants to invite someone else for indecent acts?

@tchrist And that means...

tchrist

Mine was the first generation after nude swimming was discontinued. We had all been indoctrinated with 8 years of group showers, nonetheless.

@Cerberus Well, basically, that your name ends in -son or -sen.

But really, that your forefathers originated in the Scandinavian Peninsula.

We had the same -sen surnames, same high-school graduating rank, same general area of interest (technology), same parental socio-economic background, same small-town provenance in semi-rural Wisconsin, etc.

I honestly don’t remember it being ever a problem. And I would think I would remember something like that.

Cerberus

02:23

Ah. Not Denmark?

tchrist

Denmark too, technically.

He was, however, not Danish but Norwegian.

Cerberus

Denmark is Scandinavian, but not on the "Scandinavian Paeninsula".

tchrist

You can’t know just from the -sen which it would be.

Cerberus

-sen can be Dutch.

tchrist

@Cerberus I don’t whether you meant that as a question or a statement.

But both apply.

Cerberus

02:24

The most common surname in Holland is Jansen.

tchrist

Hm.

Cerberus

@tchrist Notice the full stop.

tchrist

Now I am really bothered.

Cerberus

Janssen is also not uncommon.

tchrist

Because I cannot remember Paul’s surname, damn it.

Cerberus

02:25

You may know Andriessen.

Or is it Andriesen?

tchrist

He was tall and blond, thin but not too skinny. Had done track&field. Blue eyes. Full lips like in some German boys.

Cerberus

You have a strange idea of German boys...

It's not really possible to tell Dutchmen and Scandinavians and Germans apart if they are blond.

tchrist

Well, there is that.

Remember the thing about Danes being Germans pretending to be Englishmen.

But honestly, EVERYBODY was one of those where I grew up, so who could say?

More than half my class had surnames matching /s{1,2}[eo]n$/.

Albeit with odd Johnson, who were of course English.

There was a lot of German settlement in the south, and our family’s landlords were Dutch. But the north was very Scandinavian.

My paternal grandmother’s father was a German immigrant, as was my pattern grandfather’s father a Danish one.

Jasper Loy

I slept for 10 hours from 12 am to 10 am.

tchrist

The other side was half English (as far back as we can figure, which is a real long ways) — Halseys, and on the other half Storer (also English) and Teal (French&English).

My grandmothers’ families knew each other growing up.

But there were not related. I did not live in Appalachia.

My maternal grandmother’s Grandpa Storer, whom she had grown up with, came to Wisconsin in an actual covered wagon.

The Teal thing was troublesome.

Because it required conversion to the Roman rite.

But as Halseys were regular protestants, that got cleared up in a generation.

Then when my parents were to marry, because the Christiansens were (OF COURSE!) Lutheran, but the Halseys Congregationalists, it was the same old nonsense again. No Lutheran minister would perform the ceremony.

My Grandma Christiansen stopped talking to my dear Aunt Laurie for what seemed like eons when she went off and married an Irish Catholic. Good little Lutherans were not supposed to do that.

Cerberus

02:36

@JasperLoy Well done.

user116848

So I haven't got any good answer for this Qs. So I am thinking about posting it to ELu.

Cerberus

@tchrist Funny.

user116848

3

Q: "I thought she might have had a problem with alcohol" versus "I thought she might have a problem with alcohol"

Here in the following sentences why are we using "I thought she might have had" with 'had', why not simply "I thought she might have"? Vincent remembered Eddie’s wife, “I knew Naedine very well; she was very nice to me. I felt I had a great rapport with her". Vincent said, “Eddie didn’t talk m...

grammar

Cerberus

Now.

tchrist

Wisconsin had a lot of “English” and “Scottish” settlers, but they were actually Canadians by then. Wisconsin was still British through 1815, but had been French prior to 1763.

Lost of toponyms are in French.

After Scandinavians, English/Scottish and later some Irish, Germans, and some lingering French, the next group by size was the Low Country peoples. Dutch, Belgian, a few Luxers.

Mitch

02:40

Why did scandinavian immigrants, once they took the boat over, then spend twice as long walking or riding in a wagon to get to a place as cold or colder as where they came from?

tchrist

Then later on in the 20th century, Middle Europeans started showing up. Bohemians and such.

@Mitch Duluth and Green Bay were and are major seaports.

Then again, so are Milwaukee and Chicago, by that measure.

Mitch

and minneapolis? last stop up the mississippi?

tchrist

Lots of Polack jokes.

Mitch

lots of scndinavians et al. there too.

tchrist

@Mitch Wrong direction.

And the Twins are all Scandihoovian.

8

Q: Where does the term "Scandihoovian" come from?

I hear this phrase used to describe people who are sort of nordic, but where does it come from?

etymology

@Arrowfar Oh!!

You can’t move that because you can’t delete it.

user116848

02:44

@tchrist So what should I do?

tchrist

It can be migrated by an ELL moderator, preferably with the advice and consent of the ELU mod team.

user116848

So I flag it?

tchrist

That would be the only way.

What is the reason you would like to move it?

It might actually be a dupe here.

But I see you are not getting good answers.

user116848

I don't find the answers helpful.

tchrist

Nor should you.

user116848

02:45

I think some expert at ELU will help me out

tchrist

That was is actually fairly easy.

user116848

So can I post it at ELU or will it be marked as duplicate?

tchrist

> Vincent remembered Eddie’s wife, “I knew Naedine very well; she was very nice to me. I felt I had a great rapport with her". Vincent said, “Eddie didn’t talk much about it, but I thought she might have had a problem with alcohol.

@Arrowfar It will probably be duped out.

user116848

I see

tchrist

But the reason for the have had is easy.

user116848

02:47

Yes, which is?

tchrist

The first part is said and then didn’t talk, which are both in the past.

Then the next guy, the I-fellow, needs to say that she already had the problem at that time.

So it has to farther into the more distant past.

Plus just say "might have" sounds like a less-certain variant of "may have".

And those can be used for things happening right now.

Yes, may formally gets backshifted into might, but few today follow such niceties.

So you have to make the might have be clearly in the past.

A past perfect is further back then a plain old regular past, right?

So it was a pre-existing condition.

user116848

Yes

user116848

So the first sentence is farther in the past.

user116848

And other two sentences?

tchrist

This would be a little different in Romance languages, which have inflectional systems and you can have both perfect and imperfect tenses, and for the synthetic perfect tenses, you could inflect the "have" part differently depending on quite how you meant it. But English only has modals, which don’t really map to that sort of thing cleanly.

looks

> “I thought she had a good chance to get on the medal stand,” Dunn said Monday. “And if she got a good jump, I thought she might have had a chance to win it.

> I thought she [was having] a good change to get on the medal stand. And if she [did get / were to get] a good jump, I thought that [would have had /might have had].

So why the second had at the far set.

Because this is a hypothetical about something that is already completed.

It isn’t mandatory that the second one be "would/might have had" instead of simply "would/night have", but by putting in in the perfect construction, you make it a past hypothetical much more clearly.

Because the whole thing is done and gone.

It is no longer a possibility.

The perfect aspect indicates that everything is all over with.

user116848

02:58

So this sentence is farther in the past too? What would be the meaning if I say it like this:- "I thought she might have a chance to win it" without had

tchrist

I’m shooting from the hip here. These are not prepared answers.

Well, here’s the difference.

user116848

It's okay. More helpful than the answers I got.

user116848

Yes.....

tchrist

"I thought she might have a chance to win it" probably means that the possibility had not completed yet, that the results are not yet decided.

Discussion on answer by Brillig: Exis…

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…