English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Matt Эллен

3:00 PM

@tchrist quite

tchrist

@Arrowfar I have this theory that Orientals are much more worried about formality than are Occidentals.

user116848

@tchrist I see :)

user116848

I am from Pakistan BTW

tchrist

So saying “a formal context” to us either sounds strange or doesn’t tell us enough. Explain the exact situation.

@Arrowfar That makes sense. It is in my experience most often subcontinentals who ask about formal contexts.

You have to tell us the situation so we can know whether it makes sense there.

Since you and we have different ideas of formality.

Cerberus

@tchrist I agree.

user116848

3:03 PM

I usually hear "flirty flirt" in movies etc. so I thought can it be used in a formal sense, not that I have any formal context in front of me. Just the example that I told you.

tchrist

@Cerberus The prim and proper Puritan lurking in my cultural closet recoils at the entire premise, but I suspect more harm would be done — and is — if it were illiberalized than if it were not.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 What you can do is forbid those aspects of it that you can control, like off-line advertising.

tchrist

@Arrowfar I have never heard flirty flirt, so cannot expertly opine.

Cerberus

Just as with smoking and other drugs.

@tchrist Yes.

user116848

@tchrist Oh, I see. Thanks

Cerberus

3:04 PM

Then again, is it really so bad if you sell sex? I mean, it's just a physical act.

but Jesus

Wept.

yes, the baby Jesus

Working in an Amazon warehouse is more harmful to your mind and body, perhaps.

tchrist

And cast no stones.

George Pompidou

3:05 PM

:<

Matt Эллен

I remember the parable of Jesus and the sex workers. He flipped all the beds over. The matresses were filthy.

Cerberus

If you just have sex for half an hour, which is not an inherently unpleasant activity, you earn what it would otherwise take you ten hours of toiling to get?

George Pompidou

the little beeaaby Jeesus…

tchrist

I can’t hear your cherubic lullabyebyes.

Cerberus

Haha.

tchrist

3:07 PM

@Cerberus The invisible hand would naturally steer towards such a course.

Cerberus

@GeorgePompidou Not yet!

@tchrist What?

George Pompidou

it is okay if you are. I will speak with the beebboo Jesus and get it sorted out.

Cerberus

Thanks!!

Matt Эллен

Sorted out? What does that mean? Sounds very ominous.

tchrist

@Cerberus Economic optimizations. Who would not wish to work at 20x his previous rate, if none be harmed?

Cerberus

3:08 PM

Yes.

tchrist

I must go and see the knee surgeon now.

Cerberus

I imagine prostitution must feel a bit like a one-night stand that you weren't really enthusiastic about but went through with anyway.

tchrist

I hope he tells me no cutting shall be necessary.

Cerberus

Good luck!

Has your knee improved at all?

tchrist

No, it has not.

Cerberus

3:10 PM

Alas.

tchrist

It has if anything gotten worse.

Cerberus

OK then go.

George Pompidou

maybe this whole time Autohotkey was just Dutch slang for lurking the street corners half naked waiting for some business

2

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It's not just a physical act. And not all physical acts are equivalent. But the bigger problem is that many sex workers are actually slaves and would rather be doing something else, but they are forced to continue by their pimps.

George Pompidou

anyone know why everyone in America thinks the Amish people in Pennsylvania speak Dutch? in my experience they all literally speak Swiss German.

and even more Swiss.

Cerberus

3:11 PM

Because the word "Dutch" really means German.

Matt Эллен

Pennsylvanian Dutch

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@GeorgePompidou because Deutsch sounds like "dutch"

wow, jinxes all around

Cerberus

No other language used the word Deutsch for the language of the Netherlands.

George Pompidou

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 that's true. and Schwyeitzscherdüütsch even more so.

Cerberus

Only English.

Matt Эллен

3:12 PM

Pennsylvania Dutch

The Pennsylvania Dutch (Pennsilfaanisch Deitsch) are a cultural group formed by early German-speaking immigrants to Pennsylvania and their descendants. This early wave of settlers, which would eventually coalesce to form the Pennsylvania Dutch, began in the late 17th century and concluded in the late 18th century. The majority of these immigrants originated in what is today southwestern Germany, i.e. Rhineland-Palatinate and Baden-Württemberg; other prominent groups were Alsatians, Swiss, and French Protestants. Historically they have spoken the dialect of German known as Pennsylvania German or...

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, it is a physical act. If you have no feelings for the other party, it is not that much more...

Of course there is the problem about prostitutes being forced. That that is a problem of practice, not principle.

George Pompidou

huh. I've never heard them speaking Dutch in the weekends I used to spend in rural PA when my dad worked there.

but I guess that explains it.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus but it puts you in a more vulnerable position than, say, serving drinks

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, except that for lots of people, sex is extremely unpleasant if they have no feelings for the other party. As opposed to, say, shaking hands.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Well, in a way, but the client is also put in a very vulnerable position. If you go to a brothel, and the prostitute throws a scene, the client will lose.

Matt Эллен

3:14 PM

@Cerberus true (probably)

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But not as opposed to hurting your back every day in 11-hour shifts in an Amazon warehouse.

George Pompidou

and I suppose other things too.

yes but with Amazon warehouse you make more people happy.

sex is just selfish compared to that.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен So I'm talking about a situation here where the prostitute is safe and not forced and stuff.

user116848

@Cerberus you work in Amazon warehouse?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus There are workplace safety laws meant to prevent injuries like that. There aren't so much workplace safety laws meant to prevent the emotional trauma of being, essentially, raped for money.

Matt Эллен

3:16 PM

@Cerberus I meant (probably) as in I have no experience with such things :D

Cerberus

@GeorgePompidou Are you really happy when you have wasted money on another useless piece of plastic crap?

@Arrowfar No.

George Pompidou

@Cerberus you're asking me if I'm happy being a daily recipient of the thing I ordered two days ago on Amazon Prime?

yes, I am. really really happy.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus careful now. Some of us have invested large sums of money buying plastic stuff.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Then rape is not always bad, if that is rape...

George Pompidou

also, some of the things I buy are made of metal.

the last thing I bought of spruce wood.

Cerberus

3:17 PM

@MattЭллен Uhuh...

George Pompidou

eat you some soup, Cerberus.

Cerberus

@GeorgePompidou They're corrupting your soul!

user116848

@Cerberus So someone here does?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 My apologies! Lego excepted, of course.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus um. You're getting it backwards. Any prostitute who does not want to be a prostitute is being raped. That's my point. She is not consenting to that sex, because she is forced to be a prostitute. It is not just a physical act.

Cerberus

3:17 PM

@Arrowfar Not that I know.

user116848

I see

George Pompidou

@Arrowfar do you though?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Possibly, but that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about whether the act itself is really so horrible.

user116848

@GeorgePompidou No. But I couldn't follow the Amazon warehouse joke

Cerberus

And I am as always advocating for the Devil.

If you force people to do some other kind of labour for you, that's also bad for them. But it is unrelated to the kind of labour.

Matt Эллен

3:19 PM

@Arrowfar it's a metaphor for unpleasant labour that doesn't pay well

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus What I'm trying to point out is that sex work is unique among "physical acts" in that it involves, for the majority of people, a huge emotional component. Most people do not want to do it. Just calling it "a physical act" handwaves away the problem.

user116848

@MattЭллен I see. hah

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Still, enough people do it who are not forced or coerced.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, I agree that people should be allowed to choose to do it if they want. Why not? They can decide if they like it and do it if they do or not. But most prostitutes are not doing it because they want to.

Matt Эллен

I assume it doesn't pay well, I don't know the pay scales at amazon

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:20 PM

@Cerberus I don't think so. If "enough" did, there wouldn't be a slave trade.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But that's not my point.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Enough as in, more than a few people.

I have spoken to them.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Let's just agree, then, that if the prostitute wants to be a prostitute then there should be nothing preventing him/her from doing so, since nobody is being harmed.

Cerberus

Yes.

But that wasn't what I was exploring.

user116848

But what about all the diseases then?

user116848

STDs

Cerberus

3:22 PM

If a person wants to be addicted to eating fatty food and become very fat, then we probably shouldn't prevent him from doing so. But that doesn't mean it isn't very harmful.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus well, intentional self-harm. People should be free to harm themselves.

Cerberus

@Arrowfar Yes, that is one issue. They can and often do use protection.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But the question is, is voluntary prostitution harmful?

Matt Эллен

people pay more for unprotected sex, according to the economist article

Cerberus

And I'm arguing that it doesn't have to be.

@MattЭллен Yes, naturally...

But it's probably less risky than car racing or mountain climbing.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus harmful to whom?

Cerberus

3:24 PM

But let's assume protected sex, then.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 To the prostitute.

user116848

I love watching mountain climbing

George Pompidou

that's a thing?

Cerberus

Ew.

A dirty metaphor.

Matt Эллен

mountains climb very high.

George Pompidou

I don't get it.

Matt Эллен

3:25 PM

right up to the sky, in some cases

user116848

I don't mean it as a metaphor. I mean the real mountain.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Surely there are some harms possible. STDs. bad clients. assault. robbery.

user116848

May be I shouldn't have said it in this sex discussion :)

Cerberus

@Arrowfar I'm just teasing you.

Matt Эллен

but then there's nothing to hold onto, so they fall back down again

user116848

3:26 PM

haha

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But those things are not inherent in prostitution. You could, say, have all clients tested, use protection, have safe, guarded brothels.

If done well, prostitution need not be more risky than other kinds of sex.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus yeah. well, I already said above that I didn't think anybody was being harmed, normally.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh, OK. Some people think one is.

Matt Эллен

assault can happen in any job. Take people who work on trains, or at stations. they have put up notices now reminding people that abusers will be prosecuted, that's how often it happens

George Pompidou

everything Cerberus says in this conversation is conducive to him being an experienced prostitute.

2

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:28 PM

@MattЭллен yeah we have those notices in our buses here. It disgusts me that people have to be told that it's not okay to spit on or hit the bus drivers.

George Pompidou

stops ripping on him

Matt Эллен

yeah

Cerberus

@GeorgePompidou I do it during my 10-minute lunch break and my 10-minute dinner break at Amazon.

George Pompidou

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 what? I thought that's what the buses were for

Cerberus

And my 2-minute peeing break.

George Pompidou

3:29 PM

what do people do on the bus then

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Or, rather, some people will always display criminal behaviour, and the signs are useless.

George Pompidou

@Cerberus do Amazon workers work 23 hours and 38 minutes a day? that would explain why my packages get here before I even order them sometimes.

Amazon Prime is the literal tits.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus well, that too.

Cerberus

@GeorgePompidou They have 11-hour shifts, I read. So no.

George Pompidou

loves Amazon

Cerberus

3:31 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I rather see it as a sign of the times that people think a sign will help!

Matt Эллен

@GeorgePompidou they sell more than just books

George Pompidou

you don't say?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Actually I wonder if the signs maybe do help a little. Sometimes otherwise well-behaved people lose control, and maybe a gentle reminder helps them stay civil.

Cerberus

It's just like television programmes about crime: because people watch them, they think crime is more and more prevalent, even though the opposite is true.

Matt Эллен

@GeorgePompidou they're not just literal

George Pompidou

3:32 PM

so I can order more boobies on Amazon too?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I highly doubt it. What reasonable person would attack train personnel?

George Pompidou

the fun just never stops since I subscribed to this Prime membership.

@Cerberus drunk people?

Cerberus

Signs telling you to stand up for old people may help.

Matt Эллен

@GeorgePompidou the tits carry the books, the boobies carry the televisions. they have hawks for delivering DVDs and CDs

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus People who have otherwise reached some kind of limit on their self-control.

Matt Эллен

3:33 PM

clothes are, of course, delivered by moths

Cerberus

@GeorgePompidou Are they reasonable? Will they change their minds after glancing at a sign?

George Pompidou

@MattЭллен what is a DVDs and CDs?

@Cerberus no, you're right.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 If they have self-control, then they won't attack people. If they don't, will they heed a sign?

Matt Эллен

@GeorgePompidou things old folks use for storage

user116848

Jarvis isn't here for sometime

George Pompidou

3:34 PM

@MattЭллен huh.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Look. The sign is advertising; it's propaganda. Just like any other form of advertising and propaganda. I'm sure it has some effect. How much? who knows. Maybe the effect is to raise the consciousness of other people to have them call out such bad behaviour when they see it, or otherwise lower the status of the people who do that.

user116848

►

user116848

I found this very funny :)

user116848

And sexy

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't know. Maybe it might give people ideas.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:37 PM

@Cerberus well, maybe.

Cerberus

Sgn: "Don't say "cutie pie" to the waiters! Ever! I repeat: don't call them cutie pie!!"

What do you think people will do?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus That's different, though.

Cerberus

Especially people who were thinking about something else entirely.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Let me just say that I didn't know how common driver assault was on Toronto Transit until they put up those signs. So it has, at least, made me aware of a problem.

George Pompidou

huh. reading now about the Amazon warehouse workers law suit. I hope they didn't succeed… I'm addicted to getting my orders unreasonably quickly.

Cerberus

3:38 PM

If the sign is about "spitting", people may think, "hey, that sounds like fun, I hadn't thought of that".

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, that could be a function.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus well, it surely IS a function. But sometimes people need to be reminded just what IS bad behaviour. Like my children: sometimes they do things that are inappropriate and I have to tell them to stop, to consider what they are doing,etc. Some adults are like that too.

Cerberus

Yes.

user116848

@Cerberus What's wrong with saying "cutie pie"? Is it offensive? I think it's very cute

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I'm sure most people don't learn of a new way to assault someone and then think "I need to put that into action"

Cerberus

So it depends on whether there are people who didn't know that assaulting the staff was bad behaviour.

@Arrowfar Well, it depends. In a professional relationship, waiters may not appreciate it.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Not a new way, just a reminder of all the interesting things they could do to kill their boredom or express their frustration with society, their life, etc.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:42 PM

@Cerberus Not "didn't know". "needed reminding".

I mean, how is it any different from reminding people not to litter, or to give up their seat for someone who needs it more?

Cerberus

Sure, it may have some effect for those kinds of behaviour, like not lifting your bags from the seat next to you if people are coming into your wagon.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

These are things that should be automatic for polite people who are considerate of others.

Cerberus

Signs against littering, I don't know, we don't have those. Doubtful.

4 mins ago, by Cerberus

So it depends on whether there are people who didn't know that assaulting the staff was bad behaviour.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus we have them EVERYWHERE. like, every disposable coffee cup says not to litter.

every garbage can.

George Pompidou

haha. the Dutch are marginally less retarded than North Americans I think.

Cerberus

3:45 PM

People may not know that giving up your seat is required polite behaviour. People WILL know that not assaulting the staff is required behaviour.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Has there been any research?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus how would I know.

Cerberus

@GeorgePompidou Hah, never hope!

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Just asking.

I'm just not sure.

If you flood people with warning signs, what is the effect?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But Canada has a reputation for being tidy. When they film here, and pretend that our cities are actually American cities, they first throw trash all over the streets.

@Cerberus subtle brainwashing?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Haha, seriously?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus yes

nosmoking

3:47 PM

anyone did some Clojure here? I passed an interview where they seem to like it

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Holland is also said to be tidier than, say, France. And Sweden is tidier than Holland. But isn't that more about how much the state spends on public spaces, rather than inherent attitudes? Of course the state is less concerned with the common weal in America...

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't know. Dubious.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It's about lots of things, probably. But inherent attitudes plays into it, because the state cannot keep the streets clean on its own. People have to do their part. And when you look at places like China, where there has not been a culture of not-littering, and compare to other places, you see how much that matters.

nosmoking

What is the term for what is tidy concerning fine particles and gas?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@nosmoking I've never used it.

George Pompidou

@nosmoking a horse.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:52 PM

@nosmoking what do you mean by this?

nosmoking

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 gas-friendly

emit few gas

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Sure, there will be many factors. But I do believe in the broken-windows theory with respect to littering: if you see rubbish, you will add yours. If the Chinese government started cleaning up the streets, that alone would make people drop less rubbish.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Yeah, it is certainly part of it.

But probably they'd have to keep the streets clean for years, combined with a public education campaign, before they started seeing a culture change

There are some signs though, that clearly don't work.

Like "no smoking" signs

Cerberus

Heh.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

There is a mall nearby that has "no smoking" signs all around the outside, including signs that say "no smoking within 9m of this entrance", etc. I ALWAYS see smokers standing there, right under the signs, smoking.

They get so tetchy when I tell them off.

Cerberus

3:56 PM

I kind of sympathise with them...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Like I'm the jerk.

Cerberus

Well...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

FUCK YOU! You're smoking right under the sign!

Cerberus

They clearly think the sign is unreasonable.