English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

03:02

Yeah.

And innocent young men will have to rot in prison for a minimum of four years for it.

tchrist

Old men always do that.

Or else send them to die.

Cerberus

03:20

Yeah.

But only when money enters the equation...otherwise they usually don't care.

tchrist

The world is a wicked place.

Andrew Leach

03:35

@tchrist Done. Off to Workplace. Their mods accepted it.

tchrist

Really? Good.

Andrew Leach

(Yes it is 0430 here. I woke up.)

tchrist

I never what is actually fit for another SE site.

Oh, something was just closed for "should be on ELL".

I remember you don’t get a flag for that.

Would you like one?

I am not saying that you should move it.

Andrew Leach

Which question?

tchrist

I just remember Kit telling me that when people do that, there is no autonotify.

I’ll find it quick for you.

0

Q: Only when .. will ... then only Usage

This sentence: Only when inputs goes to logic 1 (s) will the FSM move from state s0 to s1,and then only when a clock pulse arrives. I have read in a book related to digital logic. I know the meaning of this sentence: when the input goes to logic 1 and afterwards a clock pulse arrives, then th...

usage

I do not pretend to know what is actually suitable for ELL.

I just thought that there were a lot of upvotes on the notion that it be considered for that.

And since you guys don’t get an autoflag, I didn’t want the user to be left in the dark.

Andrew Leach

03:41

No, of course. There is an accepted answer though. Let's see...

tchrist

I think the question comes down to

> Can you just explain the usage of only when X will the Y and then only structure.

Which I didn’t even know was a structure.

:)

I find that I read stuff with X and Y placeholders more easily than I do ones with ellipses.

It might be a wetware bug. Dunno.

It was confusing, but I don’t know that it is confusing because he’s a NNS.

I think it is just a painfully confusing original wording.

I see the problem. His matrix sentence needs an extra when.

Andrew Leach

He knows exactly what it means. And yes, that's what I thought (extra when).

tchrist

> Can you just explain the usage of “only when X will the Y and then only when Z” structure

So he knows what it means.

Andrew Leach

The question of migrating is "Is it too basic here? Would it help people who use ELL?"

tchrist

I don’t see that a NS would automatically have some insight over an NNS on this sort of thing.

At least, it was slow for me.

Andrew Leach

03:47

But it's based on his own not noticing the two "only when"s

tchrist

Ah.

We need more precedence-brackets in English. :)

Andrew Leach

Only when X does Y happen, and even then, only when Z.

tchrist

Which is really: if X and Z then Y

Kinda naughty to hide the second part of the conditional so far away.

Andrew Leach

Exactly. FF commented that.

tchrist

Well, he didn’t reduce it so far as I did, but I see what you mean now.

Ok, this is not a NS-v-NNS issue then, is it?

Andrew Leach

03:50

And the answer explains why it's worded like that.

tchrist

I should not have voted as I did.

Andrew Leach

No, not NS/NSS issue. It should probably stay here, actually.

tchrist

Do you think I should edit up the OP just for formatting, then vote to reopen?

And yes, I know: we all put too many answers in comments.

Andrew Leach

I was considering doing that. How about I edit it, and then you can vote via the queue?

tchrist

Ok will do, thanks.

The question was asked in good faith. I read it so fast that I misread it, which is why I closevoted.

I guess most questions are asked “in good faith”. There’s probably a better phrasing for what I mean, but I’m falling-down-drunk levels of fatigue toxins right now.

Very sober, just super tired. I usually get up around 5.

It’s 10 now. So that 17h. I’ll vote to reopen when it shows in the queue.

I see workplace has a resume, which we zapped some time ago. It makes it easier to know where those go. Maybe. Sometimes.

Andrew Leach

03:59

We probably ought to zap writing-advice, too.

tchrist

Heh.

We can replace it with the “Thoughts?” tag. :)

0

Q: Can more options use "is"

So I've been learning German on Duolingo (great app by the way if you want to learn a language). I know you guys don't want translations here, but this is more about the English. Of course, not all translations can be word for word. The German sentence was Mehr Optionen sind immer besser. I ...

verbs collective-nouns

Andrew Leach

Fixed that. And Erik answered the right question.

tchrist

Thanks.

Voted to reopen. My reading comprehension is down around that of an eight-year-old’s right now, so I’m off to bed. Have a good day, and say hello to the sun for me.

Andrew Leach

04:17

Night-night. Seems really odd saying that at this time of the morning. Back to being a student!

Cerberus

04:41

Yay!

user116848

05:32

I have a grammar question. May I?

Cerberus

05:50

@Arrowfar Always!

Let me guess: it is about tenses in subordinate clauses!

user116848

Ha ha. Yes it is!

user116848

@Cerberus Hello Cerbs!

Cerberus

I would never have guessed!

user116848

So I guess I ask a lot about backshifting here :)

Cerberus

Yes. But that's fine.

user116848

05:57

Can I say the following sentence without backshifting it: "I wanted to know that if I ever need to go there I will have everything I need"

user116848

Instead of like this: ""I wanted to know that if I ever needed to go there I would have everything I needed"

user116848

Can I use the first one?

Cerberus

I suppose so.

But I wanted to know that is a bit odd.

user116848

First one is still understandable, right Cerbs?

Cerberus

It is possible, but you would normally say I wanted to know whether or I wanted to make sure that.

@Arrowfar Yes/

user116848

06:01

Yeah that looks much better.

Cerberus

And the double needed is less...felicitous.

user116848

You are right.

user116848

Hello Caleb and Johan :)

Johan Larsson

06:23

@tchrist This is a valid point, F# is open source though. In fact more and more of .net is as of lately.

hej

Alraxite

06:57

@tchrist I believe it should be if Y then X and Z, because you're saying that Y is true only when X and Z are true or in other words, whenever Y is true, we can be sure X and Z are both true. But the author of the book cited in the original post probably had your interpretation in mind when writing that sentence.

kwak

07:28

How do you write: "Followed online courses"? for listing the online coursed you've taken, ("followed" here is not so good I think)

Johan Larsson

I have taken the following courses:?

kwak

@JohanLarsson as a title, (it's in a resume)

Johan Larsson

taken is perhaps wrong in context

@kwak perhaps just 'Online Courses' then? Short & sweet.

kwak

yep, that's what I had initially, but in my French version it sounded not complete to me

like "online courses" I created? I was enrolled in? I just viewed? I recommend?...

@JohanLarsson "done" can fit

'Online Courses done... so far'

Are there cases in English when the adjective can be at the end, like just above

Matt Эллен

08:04

like "This ball is red"?

for titles, past participles used as adjective can go at the end

"Courses done/completed/finished/etc." is fine

It is essentially an elision of [that have been]

e.g. "Courses that have been completed"

room topic changed to English Language & Usage: In which people were nice to each other [pleasant]

skullpatrol

08:19

"were"?

Matt Эллен

It's a style of language employed in the Victorian era

skullpatrol

icic :-)

Ice Girl

08:38

@skullpatrol Hi

RegDwigнt

08:53

@GeorgeCapote the US is the only country where Obama could possibly be considered left of center at all. By any sane international standard, he is ultra right.

Matt Эллен

09:08

I wish I'd bought a snack with me. don't know why I'm peckish, but two and a half hours seems a long time until lunch

user116848

Hi! I changed my profile pic :)

user116848

I am the same arrowfar guy :)

Matt Эллен

nice picture

RegDwigнt

So when I looked at you standing there with your hoard, I was waiting in the queue looking at the board, wondering whether to have a burger or chips, or what the shrapnel in my back pocket could afford.

user116848

Thanks!

Matt Эллен

09:11

@RegDwigнt sounds like "Fit but you know it"

RegDwigнt

I wonder, why would that be?

Matt Эллен

I guess we'll never know

RegDwigнt

Leave it out Matt, are you smoking crack or something? We cannot have that behaviour in this establishment. S'not worth it, Matt, just leave it.

Matt Эллен

:D

Andrew Leach

Reloads chat window

Matt Эллен

09:17

I'm not trying to pull you, even though I would like to. I think you are really fit. You're fit but my gosh don't you know it

Andrew Leach

Hmm. Arrowfar has become scenic.

RegDwigнt

> In dem jackpott der 3 kategorie, befanden sich unglaubliche € 4,926.480.00 EURO)!!!
Sie dúrfen sich zu den glúcklichen Gewinnem dieses jackpotts záhlen, und haben somit insgesamt €615,810,00 (SECHS HUNDERT UND FUNFTEEN THAUSAND ACHT HUNDERT UND ZEHN EURO)!!! gewonnen, Herzlichen Glúckwunsch!!!

I just got Blinkenlights spam!

FUNFTEEN THAUSAND

Matt Эллен

> 4,926.480.00

this formatting is confusing

@RegDwigнt the best type of teen

user116848

@AndrewLeach Thanks!

RegDwigнt

09:49

►

skullpatrol

10:26

Hi @Jolenealaska :-)

Johan Larsson

10:52

@MattЭллен ew

Matt Эллен

quite!

Johan Larsson

Rob, I have moments when i think about starting with the linkscraper. You probably want to put me on ignore if I start, I'll let you know.

Robusto

11:30

@JohanLarsson Linkscraper?

Johan Larsson

@Robusto Scraping music etc. out of transcript

Robusto

Are you talking about spamming chat?

room topic changed to English Language & Usage: In which people were nice to each other [insipid]

skullpatrol

were?

3 hours ago, by skullpatrol

"were"?

Robusto

I only changed the tag.

skullpatrol

icic

Who's Who :-)

always remember that a beaver's incisor teeth never stop growing

Johan Larsson

11:46

@Robusto Might spam you with web questions.

KitFox

@tchrist Thank you. That was a lot of work you saved me.

Johan Larsson

this just got awkward /it

Johan Larsson

11:59

not your fault :)

Robusto

12:27

Gawd, sometimes work sucks.

It never ceases to amaze me how product managers can just casually toss in an add-on to a story that winds up being as big as the story itself, yet they estimate the work involved to be insignificant.

Andrew Leach

Do you work for Dilbert's pointy-haired boss?

Robusto

I just completed a very complicated project for report data, and as an afterthought, just as the project was complete, they said, "Oh, and just throw in an examples page. And don't get the data from the database, because we want it to be universal."

@AndrewLeach No, the management is actually quite good and accommodating, but they seriously don't know what goes on under the hood. "You know, just make the engine run on water. Then we won't have to use gasoline."

BrE version: No, the management are actually quite good and accommodating, but they seriously don't know what goes on under the bonnet. "You know, just make the engine (motor?) run on water. Then we won't have to use petrol."

Andrew Leach

Thanks for the translation :-) It is an engine in a car (=automobile).

skullpatrol

RaiderEng: Get that clueless boss off my back.

Robusto

1

A: Are peas countable or non-countable?

One pea, two peas - what seems to be the problem? Seems pretty countable to me.

This seems like a comment, not an answer. I flagged it.

Matt Эллен

12:44

room topic changed to English Language & Usage: In which people were nice to each other [pleasant]

Robusto

What is this, Sesame Street?

Matt Эллен

It's a place where we respect each other and aren't mean to one another.

Robusto

Oscar the Grouch

Oscar the Grouch is a Muppet character on the television program Sesame Street. He has a green body (during the first season he was orange), has no visible nose, and lives in a trash can. His favorite thing in life is trash, as evidenced by the song "I Love Trash". A running theme is his compulsive hoarding of seemingly useless items. "The Grouch" aptly describes his misanthropic interaction with the other characters, but also refers to his species. His birthday, as noted by Sesame Workshop, is on June 1. The character is performed by Caroll Spinney, and has been performed by him since the show...

Matt Эллен

is that sesame street?

Robusto

Me ^

Matt Эллен

12:45

:D

at least I want it to be. just for a little while.

Robusto

Pleasantville (film)

Pleasantville is a 1998 American fantasy comedy-drama film written, produced, and directed by Gary Ross. The film stars Tobey Maguire, Jeff Daniels, Joan Allen, William H. Macy, J. T. Walsh, and Reese Witherspoon, with Don Knotts, Paul Walker, and Jane Kaczmarek in supporting roles. The film was released in the United States by New Line Cinema through Warner Bros. on October 23, 1998. This was J. T. Walsh's final film appearance and was released after his death. The film was dedicated to his memory. == Plot == David (Maguire) and his twin sister Jennifer (Witherspoon) lead different high-school...

The film that killed J. T. Walsh.

Not saying that kind of thing will happen here, but you never know.

Matt Эллен

I think you can only die once

Robusto

@MattЭллен I took pains to say "that kind of thing" instead of "that specific thing."

Matt Эллен

I know. I chose to ignore your pains

Robusto

I know. You are cruel and uncaring.

Matt Эллен

12:58

That's why I have these teeth.

Robusto

You are red in tooth and claw.

Matt Эллен

And green in skin and tounge.

kwak

13:14

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

No ... human being ... would ever stack coins that way.

skullpatrol

that's gotta take a lot of patience

kwak

+140m / -57m

+83m each year...

Do you know who it is?

Matt Эллен

Hilter?

skullpatrol

good guess

Matt Эллен

13:22

he has the same face :D

kwak

@MattЭллен yep

he had cut his moustache to fit his stupid face in a gas mask

Andrew Leach

Presumably that's him in the Austrian Army.

Robusto

13:43

Every time you don't know who someone is in an old photo you should guess Hitler.

George Capote

@RegDwigнt I know. what makes you tell me this, though?

(that may have even been one of the things I was ranting to Cerberus about)

skullpatrol

Is that like choosing C?

Matt Эллен

GnomeSlice

George Capote

hehehe that's a fat hitler.

GnomeSlice

13:54

Hitler

George Capote

that latter one's a chick hitler.

skullpatrol

:D

GnomeSlice

@skullpatrol Shhh

George Capote

no no, you're thinking of Indian food

that's chick hitler in the picture.

also, it's spelled curry.

skullpatrol

the father, mother, and daughter all have nobel prizes

tchrist

13:58

Ok, I give up: why doesn’t the SE spamometer peg on these before they even get submitted by the fools?

Reference to a spam posting whose text I don’t want searchable.

George Capote

uuh, that's very useful to me.

skullpatrol

it should inspire you

Johan Larsson

@Robusto You must learn to work smarter :D #buzzword

Robusto

@JohanLarsson So working smarter means accommodating those who habitually work dumber?

Tim Post

@tchrist Matching based on text is alchemy, they just alter the text a bit. However, that would completely fail the new question quality algorithms and never see the light of day on the front page (ML based).

Robusto

14:02

Anyway, what incentives does your socialist worldview offer for working smarter? I thought you were the one who thought giving incentives to good workers was a disincentive for the bad ones, and that that was a problem.

Johan Larsson

Work smarter has been in fashion lately. We always say 'you should have worked smarter' when things go wrong.

tchrist

@TimPost Thanks: I was wondering how the ML stuff was going.

Johan Larsson

@Robusto I did not say it was fair, just that it is not unlikely to give the most bang : buck for the employer.

Robusto

@JohanLarsson I didn't say it was unfair (though it is). I said (or implied) that it was self-defeating, and a productivity blocker.

Johan Larsson

Maybe, dunno about US but I think it is the way it is here and don't think it is by accident.

tchrist

14:07

@JohanLarsson “Work smarter” can sound almost sinister if you aren’t careful.

Robusto

Actually, gaming the system is a way of working smarter.

Look at the whole Veterans Affairs brouhaha.

Those people were "working smarter," making their numbers while causing the disabled veterans to suffer.

Johan Larsson

@tchrist Don't think there is a way to say work smarter to me that does not make me angry & sad

tchrist

@JohanLarsson Smart people do not oft of their own volition make themselves angry and sad.

Johan Larsson

Do you go extra advanced when addressing me? :) I always have too google the stuff you write.

Robusto

The other buzz phrase that usually accompanies "work smarter" is "we have to do more with less."

Johan Larsson

14:11

Is there a 'short and fat' in English?

Matt Эллен

short and fat, yes

Robusto

@JohanLarsson He talks like that to everyone. You only feel it when he shines the light on you.

tchrist

@JohanLarsson Sounds like a fufu coffee-name from Tarbux.

Johan Larsson

@Robusto I thank Tom for it, it is educational. Don't always have time to parse though.

tchrist

Parsing is easy; generating is hard.

Johan Larsson

14:13

@MattЭллен You left us.

skullpatrol

I'm a little tea pot short and fat :-)

Matt Эллен

@JohanLarsson oh! so i did. I forgot about that

tchrist

@Robusto That is precisely the “Brave New World” sense I was thinking of.

Robusto

In 999 cases out of 1,000, people wind up doing less with less.

tchrist

@JohanLarsson s/volition/will/ if it please you.

I feel that Less is severely overworked.

Robusto

14:15

Less is less. Not more.

skullpatrol

more is more. not less

Johan Larsson

Things tend to take the time they take + the time it takes to administer and talk about them.

skullpatrol

then don't talk about them

tchrist

@Robusto My team at *(job - 1) went from 7 to 4 in the last murdalation. Then know whereof you speak.

Robusto

@JohanLarsson But what's the first thing people want to do when a project looks like it's not going to meet the deadline? Why, have a bunch of meetings, of course.

skullpatrol

14:17

success = a + b + c

where a = work

b = play

Robusto

And, of course, since it's managers who do the scaling back, the positions that get cut are almost never managerial. It's like a bunch of people in a wagon pulled by four horses, who decide that if the horses can't pull the wagon up the hill the solution is to get rid of some of the horses, not to get rid of some of the occupants.

Johan Larsson

@Robusto Ime the meetings are more or less constant, the topic may shift :D

tchrist

@JohanLarsson One of my questions for my would-be future employers is just exactly this, for I wish to know the ratio of hours spent programming proper (including of course design and test) versus hours spent in mandatory brain-numbing meetings to satisfy the burrocracía.

Johan Larsson

I'm gonna run out of stars today

@tchrist Yeah, that is a good question to ask on an interview. The answer will most likely be bs.

George Capote

clever way to dereference your previous job.

tchrist

14:20

@JohanLarsson Ah, but you don’t actually ask that question. That’s the question you want answered. So you have to ask different questions to learn the truth.

Johan Larsson

@tchrist Nothing terribly wrong in asking it. Perhaps take some care when phrasing it.

tchrist

@GeorgeCapote Well, there’s always job[-1], but that can freak some people out worse than mere pointer arithmetic, reminding them of walking back up the stack into the operating system code in FORTRAN syscalls.

George Capote

doesn't freak me out; I just don't get it.

do explain?

oh. I guess you did

Johan Larsson

Last year I managed the managers about this, there was an investigation that was going on for ever and it started to feel like it would be late already before starting. I sent an email and asked for en estimate on how many hours they had spent in meetings about it.

tchrist

See K&R.

a[n] == *(a + n)

George Capote

14:23

oh.

if Marie Curie was so smart, why did she go her whole life never acknowledging there may be something a bit strange health-wise about her radioactive stuff?

I think some may have even pointed out to her that her health is declining.

and she made remarks of strange things about her chemicals, that she never further investigated.

tchrist

@GeorgeCapote Columbus’s Egg.

Robusto

Which was a myth.

RegDwigнt

@GeorgeCapote you assume that there is a reason for anything I say. As such, your question is loaded and I reject it as such.

George Capote

half the times on my workstation at work, I click on something and there is no click.

I have to click like three or four times.

RegDwigнt

That's optimization for you.

George Capote

14:30

grumbles

I actually clicked five times on the little arrow by your message and realized it was in response to my facetious communist comment.

so that solves it despite your rejection.

tchrist

@Robusto In which of several conflicting sense? That the tale is apocryphal or that it holds no deeper truth?

RegDwigнt

Everything in this chat is a response to someone's facetious communist comment.

So you still haven't gained much.

George Capote

heh.

Robusto

@tchrist The former.

tchrist

@Robusto Myth can serve other goals. This is one such case.

Robusto

14:33

Better to use an obviously made-up parable than to ascribe those conditions to real-life events.

RegDwigнt

Sometimes myths even serve other goats.

George Capote

hahaha.

tchrist

It is a story all schoolchildren learn, but I think that even then it is told as a parable.

George Capote

there's columbus and his egg

look how proud he is and how fascinated his little buddies are.

wow, Chris, that was some clever shit right there!

Robusto

That photo is obviously photoshopped.

tchrist

14:34

@GeorgeCapote Ojo por los huevos, chaval.

George Capote

sorry, I don't speak Mexican

tchrist

> The investment group eyed the entrepreneur with caution, their expressions flickering from scepticism to intrigue and back again.

“Your bold plan holds promise,” their spokesman conceded. “But it is costly and entirely speculative. Our mathematicians mistrust your figures. Why should we entrust our money into your hands? What do you know that we do not?”

“For one thing,” he replied, “I know how to balance an egg on its point without outside support. Do you?” And with that, the entrepreneur reached into his satchel and delicately withdrew a fresh hen’s egg. He handed over the egg t…

George Capote

debugs his clicking problem by plugging in a new mouse

RegDwigнt

@GeorgeCapote Actually it's just some pixels on my screen. Now, I can't know if Columbus was some pixels on my screen, but I am fairly certain eggs are not.

tchrist

@GeorgeCapote No seas tan tonto, Tonto.

George Capote

14:38

you just blew my mind @RegDwigнt

but wait, now you're all just some pixels on my screen

RegDwigнt

I don't blow things for free.

tchrist

Ah, an artist.

George Capote

hey, look, this new mouse fixed it.

that was the first time I've ever been right on the first debugging step.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist Those investors were not using good reasoning.

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 There is nothing new under the sun.

George Capote

14:41

problem is, this new mouse has fucking teflon or hover technology on the bottom or something because my hand is slip n' sliding all over the desk now.

grumbles

@tchrist define "under" in that case.

Matt Эллен

@GeorgeCapote not over

George Capote

why?

Matt Эллен

Because.

tchrist

Nihil novi sub sole.

אין כל חדש תחת השמש

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@GeorgeCapote under means what it always means.

George Capote

14:46

hey, I was getting picked on for assuming people know what "same meaning" means

since then I'm not sure what is still defined

@tchrist nimic nou sub soare

RegDwigнt

@MattЭллен so, über?

Matt Эллен

@RegDwigнt si

George Capote

I think he meant to say that this isn't over

and that he'll be back to fight me.

puts up fists of steel

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwigнt ünder

George Capote

ünderwear

RegDwigнt

14:51

Why invent a nonsense word with an umlaut if the actual word actually has an umlaut?

Unterwäsche.

George Capote

because that one couldn't have been formed as easily by copy pasting the previous one

RegDwigнt

It's German. No need to get creative. Just use what's there.

@GeorgeCapote that's loser talk.

You must be completely new to the plagiarizing business.

George Capote

plenty of Great Germans get creative with words.

that's where most of their words come from.

RegDwigнt

Yeah, all ten of them.

Which are then combined into others.

Matt Эллен

Gërmañs

RegDwigнt

14:53

Take six LEGO bricks, get a thousand billion possibilities.

George Capote

bundesausbildungsförderungsgesetz

aaaand that's enough work for today.

RegDwigнt

Bafög.

George Capote

that's no fun.

RegDwigнt

Why sure it is.

George Capote

is all jittery from too much Red Bull

RegDwigнt

14:55

Guter Bulle, roter Bulle.

George Capote

or maybe it's these new headphones. got these überfancy new headphones and they're pressing down on the top meinem kopf like none other

and now mein kopf raucht.

eeh accidentally erased "of" and now I can't fix it again

RegDwigнt

Rauchen kann tödlich sein.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…