English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

11:00

22 hours ago, by Robusto

You'd think Hades was stuffed with maps, wouldn't you?

Andrew Leach

@MattЭллен IIS can't even do it within the same worker process.

Cerberus

@Robusto You don't like?

Matt Эллен

@AndrewLeach it's not allowed?

Robusto

@Cerberus I don't know what it means.

Cerberus

Sorry, I meant "you no like?".

Andrew Leach

11:02

@MattЭллен It just doesn't do it. If you don't have a SQL state-server database, it forgets session state when worker processes recycle.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus I'm just using programmer jargon. threads are like people and state is like... um... well I'll give a bad analogy: if two people try to eat the same apple at the same time, it can get problematic if someone tries to take a bite, but the bit they were biting into has alredy been eaten or is in the process of being bitten

@AndrewLeach I see

Johan Larsson

@MattЭллен or the other guys tongue?

Matt Эллен

@JohanLarsson yeah!

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Right, I figured it had something to do with that.

I know threads.

Robusto

@MattЭллен Smart apple ninjas start from the other side of the apple.

Andrew Leach

11:04

@MattЭллен Which means that users who were being handled by that process have to re-authenticate. Big problem!

Matt Эллен

@AndrewLeach ah! yeah. quite frustrating for them.

Johan Larsson

Also ime it is nontrivial to get significant performance boosts from threading, sure chunky operations lend themselves to it if they parallelize nicely.

Matt Эллен

@Robusto the core?

Johan Larsson

operation finished, starting next

Robusto

@MattЭллен No. The shiny red part.

Johan Larsson

11:10

obvious but still good

Andrew Leach

@Robusto Only if they don't have a wicked stepmother.

Johan Larsson

Mitch enters the room in slow motion, wearing speedos, looking healthy

Matt Эллен

lol

Robusto

I thought everybody had a wicked stepmother. At least in fairy tales.

Johan Larsson

Mine is an ordinary person

Not sure what she thinks of me though

685-252

11:18

!!wiki wicked thoughts?

Jarvis the Bot

@685-252 No result found

Cerberus

You have a stepmother?

What is that in Swedish?

685-252

!!are you a virgin?

Jarvis the Bot

@685-252 Probably

Mitch

@JohanLarsson I think I look great. But then I look in a mirror.. ugh.

@Robusto My mother? Let me tell you about my mother...

Johan Larsson

11:21

@Cerberus styvmor

Cerberus

Cool. So you also have the fricative. Stiefmoeder in Dutch.

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus oh, no read it wrong, what is the word for GF's mother?

Mitch

@JohanLarsson If you read that in Pig Latin it doesn't mean anything.

Cerberus

Ah, mother in law.

Mitch

@JohanLarsson that... woman who keeps barging in in.

Cerberus

11:23

Schoonmoeder in Dutch, which is probably a literal translation of French belle-mère.

Mitch

@Cerberus so sarcastic.

Cerberus

Well, is your mother in law ugly?

Johan Larsson

started new operation

@Mitch she is nice!

Mitch

Too nice and it gets a little uncomfortable.

Alraxite

you know, if you search X -Y on google, you almost always get more results than from what you get on searching only X

Cerberus

11:36

@Alraxite Yes, but remember that the number of results is only an estimate. In many cases, it is off by a factor 1000.

Can you give me an example with a number of results that is low enough to get to the last page of results?

Alraxite

As a matter of fact, you can get to the last page of results of any query. I think the pages are only up to 30 or something

It then tells you it omitted some very similar pages.

it asks if you want to include them

even then, you only go up to, like, page 70

I tried that.

Mitch

@Alraxite They know what you want and so can find more of it.

Alraxite

I know, I know

Mitch

Also, don't worry about logic. It just confuses things.

Alraxite

It's stupid though. Why show it if the numbers are completely off

actually, it's fun to try to find X's and Y's for which you get less results on X -Y than on X.

I found about 3 IIRC

Cerberus

11:43

@Alraxite I do not believe that is true.

But give me an example of your minus results that are more numerous than your normal results.

Mitch

@tchrist From his profile: "Now I teach English in Moscow"

Alraxite

@Cerberus I think I tried it on "HP" and I only got to about page 30

and the number of results are supposed to be 300 million

Cerberus

Can you give me a link?

Alraxite

@Cerberus Try any query

Cerberus

Ok will do.

Alraxite

11:45

Make sure Y is in quotes if you use more than one word for it

because X-Y Z it parsed as X Z -Y

@Cerberus google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=HP&start=185

ends at 20

Now for with the omitted results

wait

google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#filter=0&q=HP&start=709

70.

Cerberus

@Alraxite Wow, you're right. It ends at page 25 for me, though.

And it says there are only 244 results, which is absurd for "HP".

Alraxite

Yeah, the results are a bit regional dependent

@Cerberus it does?

says 383 million for me

oh

gotcha

at the end of the results

Cerberus

@Alraxite This one goes up to 88 for me. However: Page 88 of about 467,000,000 results (0.69 seconds)

Alraxite

Different google servers around the globe have differently updated databases. so it differs.

Cerberus

Okay, Google is totally out of whack.

Hmm that could be it.

Alraxite

11:51

I actually read up on this

basically, that's intentional that google doesn't fetches all the results for you

because that'll take a lot of time.

so it only brings you what it thinks are the most relevant

Cerberus

@Alraxite Okay, I opened the exact same link in Chrome, and now it only goes up to page 83!

@Alraxite Yes, that makes sense. But then it shouldn't say that there are only 244 results for "HP". And it shouldn't vary so wildly.

Alraxite

@Cerberus Are you using google.com on one and google.nl on the other or something?

@Cerberus I know. and as far as I know, there's no way to make it fetch the results that it left behind.

terdon

Guys, google modifies its results based on your search history. Try a search engine that doesn't track you to compare the differences. duckduckgo.com for instance.

Cerberus

@Alraxite Ah, you are right: I literally copied the same link, but Chrome automatically changed it into .nl.

@terdon Right, I also use Duckduckgo.

But Google has better userscripts that exist for it.

Alraxite

@terdon Hmm. I'm not logged in, but that could still be true.

Cerberus

11:55

And I think DDG doesn't have the same Maps integration?

And, yes, it could also be search history. Even so, "244 results" for "HP" is just wrong.

terdon

@Cerberus I think it does now, they've linked to it. You can also use the ! commands: !maps 12 lonely street

@Alraxite I think it also uses your location etc.

Cerberus

Let me try DDG again...

Alraxite

And apparently the reason X -Y obtains more results is because when you give google something more specific, it causes it to search its database more seriously.

and it goes like, omg, I didn't know I had so much data.

Of course, we only get like 0.000...0001 per cent of it.

Cerberus

@terdon Ah, you're right! I get a map link. However, I cannot click on it to open the map.

Alraxite

@Cerberus If you go to the bottom of Google's homepage, you can select 'Use Google.com' and it won't switch to it's regional version when you search.

Cerberus

11:59

My normal way of getting directions to an address mentioned in an email on my phone is as follows. I select the address in the text, do Web Search, then click on the first result (which will be a box/link to Google Maps), and then Maps automatically opens so I can press "directions".

terdon

The really annoying thing is that they switch your language automatically. "Ooh, you're in bertestan, you must speak bertestanish".

Alraxite

@terdon Most likely.

Cerberus

@Alraxite Haha nice.

That could be it.

terdon

@Cerberus I just do !maps, that takes me straight to google maps.

Cerberus

@Alraxite Right, that's probably why I have the American version in Firefox.

Alraxite

12:01

@Cerberus That's what the dudes at Google say on Twitter. There are many articles on the web about google's brilliant result counting algorithms. Which is where the tweets were cited and how I found out about them.

Cerberus

@terdon Hmm I could make a Firefox bookmark keyword to do that. But it isn't possible in Android, I fear.

Mitch

@terdon I know bertestanish!

@Alraxite That doesn't seem possible! But I would think it's fair since twitter people can use google. I'll allow it for now.

Cerberus

@Alraxite Right, I knew they never really showed you everything, that the result numbers were just estimates.

Alraxite

@Cerberus Can you find terms X and Y such that X -Y collects less results than X?

It's a challenge!

Cerberus

Well, how do you define "results"?

If you mean what Google calls "estimated results", then I don't think that has much meaning...

Matt Эллен

12:13

the things you get after an experiment

terdon

@Alraxite Justin: 89,800,000, Justin -bieber: 47,800,000

Alraxite

@Cerberus what google reports.

@terdon damn.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен I just get bloody body parts.

terdon

:)

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus result!

terdon

12:13

Oddly enough, the inverse (bieber -justin/bieber) does not work.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен I suppose!

Andrew Leach

@MattЭллен As long as they're someone else's parts.

Cerberus

@terdon What's that slash?

Matt Эллен

@AndrewLeach true. I wouldn't want to find my own body parts strewn about the place

Alraxite

@terdon But I get more results for Justin -bieber!

terdon

12:16

Damn, sorry, it was the other way around:. bieber -justin: 47,800,000 and bieber: 89,800,000

Matt Эллен

"Linus Torvalds" — 1,050,000
"Linus Torvalds" -linux — 740,000

Alraxite

@terdon Ah, yes. Now the numbers match.

terdon

@MattЭллен Not the same! You'd need "Torvalds -linux"

Alraxite

I get only 55k for "Linus Torvalds"

oh wait

OK. That was weird. Now I do get 1,040,000 results.

"Douglas Engelbart": 442,000
"Douglas Engelbart" -mouse: 243,000

Josh61

@Matt, sorry to disturb.. Do you have a minute for me please!

Alraxite

12:24

This idea works well with people only famous for one particular thing.

Matt Эллен

@Josh61 what's up?

user116848

Is this sentence grammatical?: "Able to perceive, evaluate situations and find feasible alernatives"

terdon

@Arrowfar Not really. There's no verb and no subject. It is typical of CV-speak though.

user116848

@terdon Yes I want to add this sentence into CV. SO can I?

terdon

It would be fine as part of a bullet point list like: The candidate is 1) quick 2) able to perceive...

Cerberus

12:27

It is not a sentence.

terdon

However, able to perceive does not really mean anything either.

Josh61

@ Matt, can you contact me via inbox.. need an advice.

Cerberus

And I don't like "able to perceive, ...".

terdon

:)

user116848

Yah in bullet points I am writing this

Cerberus

12:27

Heh.

Alraxite

@terdon The candidate is run quickly.

Cerberus

What he probably means is "able to perceive and evaluate...".

terdon

@Alraxite Damn!

Cerberus

But perceiving a situation sounds odd.

user116848

@Cerberus So can you change it? And give a better version

Matt Эллен

12:28

@Josh61 we can chat in another room, if you like.

terdon

How does one perceive a situation anyway? I perceive it as hard.

Cerberus

Jinx again.

terdon

@Arrowfar We'd need more context.

@Cerberus :)

Cerberus

How about if you just leave out perceive altogether?

user116848

okay...

Andrew Leach

12:29

Do you mean "Able to perceive and evaluate problems, and find feasible solutions"?

user116848

Yes

Cerberus

Unless, as Terdon says, it expresses something that you want to say (but that we cannot understand without knowing what you want to say);.

Matt Эллен

@Josh61 I've started a room for us. come and chat with me in there.

terdon

Yes, problems works much better than situations.

user116848

I guess @AndrewLeach sentence is okay

terdon

12:30

Indeed it is.

user116848

So I am going with that

terdon

By the way @AndrewLeach does window rhyme with trinder for you? What's your accent?

user116848

Normal american accent

user116848

:)

Josh61

@ Matt, ok what room, sorry . I am not familiar with the chat,

Matt Эллен

12:32

@Josh61 you should have got an invite. I'll send another...

terdon

@MattЭллен Try the super ping

Andrew Leach

@terdon No; my accent is southern English, but not London.

Matt Эллен

@terdon just what I was thinking

user116848

I have a question. When I sometimes make a confident statement (for example) "All great men marry once in their life" there is always someone who refutes it. So to lighten up the situation what's some good conversation lines, phrases and expressions etc to use? Like "Yes, there is always a 'but'".

Also I am not talking about being funny here because I usually stick to my idea while giving the other guy some leeway.

So what are some tactful sentences that I could use so the other person understands that the topic is open for discussion or debate?

Josh61

@Matt, I accepted it, but it soon disappeared. Maybe because I am on IPad.

Andrew Leach

12:35

Chat's horrible on an iPad.

Josh61

Sorry for that!!!

user116848

@Cerberus You saw my new question here? Feel free to answer if you like. Thanks.

terdon

10

Q: What is "the exception that proves the rule"?

I've heard the phrase, "the exception that proves the rule," but it's not clear to me what it means. It sounds self contradictory. What is a good example of "an exception that proves the rule?" Can this phrase be used effectively in formal dialog, or is it only colloquial?

meaning

Also, @Arrowfar you should consider asking some of your questions on the site. That's what it's for after all.

user116848

@terdon ELU or ELL site?

terdon

Depends on the question. ELL probably for most of the things you've asked.

user116848

12:37

okay I'll post it on ELU. That ok?

Cerberus

ELL.

This one would be closed on EL&U.

user116848

Why closed?

user116848

Not of any topic?

Cerberus

Because it is too much about "proofreading", which is off topic here.

terdon

1) opinion based 2) general reference 3) proffreading

Cerberus

12:39

On ELL, you also have to be specific about what your problem is, not just ask "check my text".

terdon

But as a general rule, questions should be on the site :)

Cerberus

Well...

I'm not sure agree.

That's a first!

user116848

No guys it is not proofreading. It's about what to say in this particular situtation

Andrew Leach

Oh. Perhaps that's etiquette.

Cerberus

I think questions are OK in chat, as long as you don't ping specific people. Whoever sees it and is in the mood to answer it, let him do so; but, if nobody is, then so be it.

terdon

12:40

^^^

user116848

Ok I'll go to the main site. Thanks.

Cerberus

@Arrowfar I'm afraid that counts as proofreading.

terdon

@Arrowfar Don't get me wrong. You can ask here, it's just that if you do it often, the site misses some good content. Asking on chat helps only you, asking on the site helps everybody.

Cerberus

You'd need to ask about a specific word or phrase for it to be specific enough to not be proofreading.

Excuse my English.

terdon

Convolutedish?

Cerberus

12:42

That, and double-embedded-negationish.

user116848

Its okay guys. I'll paste it on the main site. :)

Alraxite

it might not get a good reception though...

user116848

We'll see :D

Alraxite

heh

terdon

@Arrowfar If you do ask on the site, make sure you don't ask for "some good conversation lines, phrases and expressions etc ". Questions should have specific answers. Instead, ask "How can I tactfully make the other person understand..."

user116848

12:46

Where can I find the difference between ELU and ELL questions?

user116848

@terdon okay. Thanks dude

Alraxite

43

A: What is the difference between ELU and ELL?

ELU is a site intended for "serious linguists." Over time, many non-native speakers stumbled across ELU, and would ask questions that native speakers considered very basic. This caused mixed feelings: on one hand, as the board became flooded with more and more basic and trivial questions, some us...

Cerberus

@terdon Even that sounds too open-ended, in my extremely humble opinion ('cause that's what I am!!).

@Alraxite By the way, how do you feel about the proficiency of Indian people in English? The map placed India at the same level as Ukraine and Indonesia.

Andrew Leach

@terdon "How can I tactfully make the other person understand?" We have no idea who he's talking to, what their demeanour is; it's all entirely (not just primarily!) opinion-based and guesswork.

terdon

@AndrewLeach Yeah.

You're right, that didn't help at all.

Alraxite

12:57

@Cerberus I mean, on average it's good enough for them to be able to perfectly read and understand English. Perhaps not many can write absolutely correct English.

Also, English is only an official language.

I wouldn't call it a native language.

It's only taught in schools.

Cerberus

Right, so but that deserves a higher ranking than "moderate proficiency"...

Alraxite

Oh, and which map?

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…