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18:00
@Cerberus Look. I contend that no matter HOW corporations, governments, and other stakeholders present their information, there would be something for you to find fault in. They are biased speakers. That is obvious. So what? excise big words from the language, because nobody is important enough to use them?
@tchrist Still not a nervous reflex, I think...
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@tchrist good point
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You are probably right that he would do that, but he is undoubtedly right to do so.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Every word has its place.
@Cerberus I'd be nervous sticking my hand in a lion's mouth.
18:02
Even utilization, perhaps, although it is to me incognita.
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the lion associates "things in mouth" to "chewing"
@Cerberus And that place is in a dictionary, safely protected from Evil Empires who seek to use it to convey information.
Haha.
@Cerberus and every place its word.
@Mitch Libera eas de ore leonis.
18:02
I don't know about utilization, which is unusually useless, but most words have their places in real language. Just not the way advertisements and PR companies use them.
@Mitch Hardly.
@tchrist and deliver us from evil
@tchrist look. I will agree that corporations et al often mislead. And I will agree that they often use awful or curious language. But I disagree that the awful language is fundamentally about misleading.
What do you call the place behind your ears?
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I contend that the seed of the awfulness is deception. Not saying that that's all there is to it.
@Cerberus totally. just because you don't have a word for that hill, doesn't mean someone else doesn't
@Cerberus The home of Brevibacterium linens, whence cometh Stilton.
18:04
@Cerberus inner space.
Strange.
@Cerberus or you could call it that too.
@tchrist How very circumlocutory.
@Mitch But it isn't inner.
@Cerberus ’Tis but a kenning.
@Cerberus People choose their words to convey a message. Sometimes the message is "I'm a business person speaking to business people so I will speak the way they speak". Is that being deceitful? Or is that simply tailoring your message to its audience?
18:05
@tchrist Is that the bacteria that is found in toejam also?
@tchrist I had to look that word up...
!!wiki ear
@skullpatrol The Gods of Wikipedia did not bless us
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Hapless victim.
The ear is the organ that detects sound. It not only receives sound, but also aids in balance and body position. The ear is part of the auditory system. Often the entire organ is considered the ear, though it may also be considered just the visible portion. In most mammals, the visible ear is a flap of tissue that is also called the pinna (or auricle in humans) and is the first of many steps in hearing. Vertebrates have a pair of ears placed somewhat symmetrically on opposite sides of the head. This arrangement aids in the ability to localize sound sources. Structure The shape of t...
18:06
!!wiki ear worm
@Cerberus See how good for you I am? :)
An earworm, sometimes known as a brainworm, Phrases used to describe an earworm include musical imagery repetition, involuntary musical imagery, and stuck song syndrome. The word ' is a calque from the German ' and was, according to Oliver Sacks, first used in the 1980s. Researchers who have studied and written about the phenomenon include Theodor Reik, Sean Bennett, Oliver Sacks, James Kellaris, Philip Beaman, Vicky Williamson, and, in a more theoretical perspective, Peter Szendy. The phenomenon is common and should not be confused with palinacousis, a rare medical condition caused by da...
> Blue cheese is a general classification of cow's milk, sheep's milk, or goat's milk cheeses that have had cultures of the mold Penicillium added so that the final product is spotted or veined throughout with blue, blue-gray or blue-green mold, and carries a distinct smell, either from that or various specially cultivated bacteria. Some blue cheeses are injected with spores before the curds form and others have spores mixed in with the curds after they form. Blue cheeses are typically aged in a temperature-controlled environment such as a cave. Blue cheese can be eaten by itself or can be
@Mitch See above.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 If I help you polish your strange metal devices, and it turns out you're using them to kill people all the time, then I am doing bad work, but I may be blameless.
@Cerberus People have many many modes of speaking and writing. All different kinds of registers and styles. I'm using one right now: the "I'm presenting a serious argument" style. I don't always write like this in chat. I have varying levels of formality and varying blocks of permissible vocabulary. I pick and choose which one to use depending on who is present. Is that deceitful?
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18:07
!!define deceitful
@Cerberus bollocks.
@cc deceitful deliberately misleading or cheating
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 What do you think?
Cerberus, that thing behind your ear is an earworm. Why why why would you let Khan do that to you? You should see a doctor about that.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 All press releases and product announcements are tailored to deceive, yes.
They do not have to be, but they are.
18:07
But earworms are harmless!
@Mitch He’s muggled.
@tchrist Tailored to put the best possible appearance on things. Is that necessarily deception?
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 When it surpasses truth, yes.
@Cerberus No. The fact that I speak politely to customers in my shop, and swear profusely with my friends, is not deception on either part. The fact that I use "business words" when talking to business people is neither.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So, in summary, the fact that a person uttering the awful language is not trying to deceive people doesn't mean that the origin of his words and formulae does not lie in someone else's deceit. So "person x is not trying to deceive you with his corporate speak" is compatible with my theory.
18:09
@tchrist And so you would claim that ALL press releases, advertisements, etc, surpass truth?
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Or mislay it.
@RegDwigнt Wut?
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You're drawing a distinction that is not obvious to me. Cerb, tchrist and I think that marketers are deceitful not just because of the outward semantics they use (they outright lie), but their use of language, though denotationally truth-telling, will mislead by connotations. I don't think you are denying thta, but you are saying something else.
The original adverts in broadsheets were incredibly more honest than are ours today.
Language exists beyond the single person who happens to be uttering it in a particular instance.
18:10
@RegDwigнt You wish.
@Mitch I agree.
@Cerberus But it also exists beyond its etymology. Even if your theory is true, that all (or even most) business language is rooted in outright deception, that wouldn't matter if its usage had grown beyond its origins.
@tchrist I hardly think so. We have standards now, about things like making unsubstantiated claims in advertising.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 hee hee hee
@Mitch I'm not saying that they can't mislead by connotation, but that that's not necessarily why the words are used.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Indeed not. However, if it is all rooted in deception, and if we do not like it now (even though it has partly outgrown the deception), then it is still fair to blame her.
18:13
Sins there are both of commission and omission alike, and both in plenitude.
@tchrist You don't see, eg, tobacco companies claiming health benefits for cigarettes anymore.
@tchrist Is that supposed to prove that ads were better, or worse, than now?
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 but you do see lotteries implying that participants could become millionaires. sorry I didn't mean to jump in, I just thought of a counter example.
That’s an ad for lottery tickets. Now compare with one from today’s broadsheet, why doncha?
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That they lied less.
18:15
@MattЭллен Well, of course that's true, that they can become millionaires. It happens frequently, in fact. Just not to many people.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 but the implication is that you might, not that it is a statistical (im)probability
@MattЭллен Yes. And that implication is true. You might.
anyway. carry on. pretend I didn't say anything
Lies.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 it is not true
18:16
@MattЭллен Yup, it's all about implication, connotation, and trying to subconsciously influence people's behaviour and perceptions.
@MattЭллен Of course it's true. P > 0.
@tchrist That's quite honest. And long, for an advertisement.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The chance is negligible.
@Cerberus yes. But everyone knows that.
The purpose of lottery advertisements, at least modern ones, is to subconsciously make people think their chance is not negligible.
No explicit lies.
No deception so strong that ticket buyers will utter untruths when asked about their chance to win.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 but most people don't understand it. if it were a science experiment, the conclusion would say: you won't win the lottery jackpot if you play p > 0.01
18:18
But still, deception.
Okay, let's say I concede that lottery ads overstate the benefits of playing. Does that mean that ALL ads are deception? ALL press releases? ALL corporate speech? All military, political, etc speech?
@Cerberus And only 120 years later, the snakeoiler barons had already begun their reign of deceit, and even if that beginning was a slow one, it has now reached a level of artifice to put even North Korean brainwashers to shame.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I (and I think Cerb and tchris) think they are intentionally used to mislead, necessarily. Do you think they're doing it unconsciously?
Or else is the bar for "deceitful speech" so low that my every posting in this room qualifies, simply for not providing my entire life story as context for my words and biases?
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Not necessarily all. But my point is that it is a central part of the whole business, it oozes deception everywhere.
@tchrist Haha, but this is hardly a new phenomenon...
18:21
@MattЭллен Nope we're holding you to it. Lies and all. Also things you didn't say.
especially the lies you didn't say but we know you were thinking.
@Cerberus Come on. When you go on a first date, do you tell your date about all your past history, personal failings, bad habits, things your exes found annoying, etc? Full disclosure? Or are you deceiving him?
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Dating is also partly about deception, but it is still less central there.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 um... maybe?
Ads try to paint a rosy picture. Sure. But they are not alll automatically deceiving.
Painting a rosy picture is by definition deceptive.
18:22
@Mitch what is this Orwellian dystopia?!
@Cerberus Now we're getting back to the whole point. How to flirt successfully.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Perhaps your bar for "deception" is high.
Some product ad that shows a cell phone, with people using it to take pictures and talk and text. Have they deceived me? Only if the product fails to do those things. Or did they deceive me, because it's sunny in the ad, but sometimes when I use the phone it's cloudy?
@MattЭллен Just like home for the holidays!
@Mitch Deception may work, but then again the opposite also works, baring your body.
18:23
@Cerberus come ON. It's identical.
@Cerberus Oh. That just won't work. ashamed of body
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I would call that mild deception. They are trying to make you buy the phone partly because your subconscious likes the laughing children and hot chicks in the advertisement, not only because you will actually enjoy its functions.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't think so? Why?
Nokia makes an ad showing a dude getting his hair cut while playing with a Windows 8 tablet. Is it deceiving that the guy's hair grows during the cut? Or that the tablet doesn't actually do... whatever it was they said it did? Or is the deceit in that I don't really want a Windows tablet, and anyone who says I do must therefore be lying?
@Mitch Nonsense. I bet you have elegant ankles.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You are setting the bar for "deception" far too high, at "explicit lie".
@Cerberus You are trying to put your best foot forward, you are showing yourself at your best, you are deferring discussion of your flaws until later, when the person is interested in you, etc. If sins of omission, as tchrist put it, are automatically as bad as outright lies, then every first date is FULL of deceit.
18:26
Mild forms of deception are not always so bad.
Bye-bye horsey, good-bye!
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Not sure what your point is here. I already said there is a considerable element of deceit in dating.
@tchrist No odor, no vibration!
My point is that "corporate speak" is not special. It is as deceiving as all other speech.
I disagree.
@Cerberus So using "utilize" instead of "use" is not so bad then?
@Cerberus well, clearly you do. But you've been dating recently. That PROOVES you're a liar.
LIAR!
18:28
When I am dating, I'm mainly trying to have a good time and getting to know the other person. Deceit is but one part of it.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It is not a particularly egregious form of deceit, no.
@Cerberus And when a corporation is presenting their quarterly earnings, they are merely trying to convey financial information. Being optimistic about the future is but one part of it.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I speak the truth! Honestly!
@Cerberus I can't believe anything you say anymore. One lie means there could be more.
I must conclude that ALL your words are lies, or at least, deceit.
Also: why is there no p in that word? I keep wanting to write deceipt.
Or why is there a p in receipt?
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The earnings themselves are probably not very deceptive. Although they absolutely can be, when they make certain choices about what to include etc. The language surrounding them is probably also less deceptive than many other parts of the report. I have just been reading many such reports, and they are all pretty awful in their use of language.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, there ought to be a p. But, alas, French screwed over English, and now we have...this.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I promise! No lies!
@Cerberus Well, like I said, I will agree that the aesthetics can be bad. For many reasons. Sometimes they are using specific business or accounting words that are more narrowly defined, but makes it hard to read. But I just don't think it's necessarily deceiving.
That's just too broad a statement.
18:34
I didn't say every single word in an advertisement was deceptive.
Yay!! The Austrian constitutional court has struck the Austrian data-retention law.
Based partly on a pre-judicial declaration from the European Court of Justice.
@Matt @cc Autonomic reflexes (nervous reflexes) v. learned behavior (habit) Autonomic is built-in functionality. Learned 'reflexes' are usually recorded in the cerebellum and output subcortically, so they seem similar.
@Cerberus No, but you seem to be claiming that any advertisement must be, by its very nature, deceiving.
Well, technically an advertisement is just any notice.
Here is an honest ad: “Locally grown strawberries at $2.99 a pint and $4.99 a quart”.
So it doesn't have to be contain deception. But 99% of advertisements do contain deceptive elements, I would say.
@tchrist No.
18:44
Also, @Matt @Andrew THey have PG Tips at my grocery store! So I bought some.
@Cerberus ?
The .99 is deceptive (and incredibly stupid).
It's not deceptive and stupid.
Yes it is.
waits
18:45
It's to charge as much as possible without hitting the next bracket. I'd say it's quite practical.
sits
That's deception.
How is that deception?
@KitFox The deception is in keeping the first number lower.
without being practically lower
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 There is no lie there.
@KitFox Er... fortunately I don't remember recommending them.
18:46
No. It's not to keep the first number lower. It's to avoid hitting the next dollar bracket, which costs more.
Yeah. They believe in some (probably pseudo-scientific) theory that people will not see through 2.99 and subconsciously think it's closer to 2.00 than it really is or something.
If something costs a buck a pop or five bucks per half dozen, there is no deception involved.
@tchrist No, but I will agree that the use of .99 is intended to deceive.
@KitFox but 1c more is not really more.
But it's nothing to do with tricking anyone.
@Cerberus No, it's true. It does work.
18:47
@AndrewLeach You didn't. I was just surprised when I heard about it earlier and then there it was.
It has to do with operational costs.
You will notice that things sold at fruit&vegetable stands at the side of the road never use 0.99 components. Things are like $2/# or $3.50/# or whatever.
@KitFox You might like it. You never know. I hardly ever drink tea.
@tchrist They probably also don't charge tax, or build it into the price
so using round numbers is way easier
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I seriously doubt that, but I haven't seen the research. It makes the seller seem more deceptive and less friendly to me, it's hardly sympathetic. If I had to choose between two stands on a flea market with the same products for sale, I'd think the .99 guy was petty and silly, and I'd favour the other guy. Or something.
Things are often N/$X, too.
18:49
@tchrist So that is better, right?
@Cerberus well, in north america it's sop. It's not at all remarkable.
Sop?
@Cerberus It’s easier to do in your head.
Who's S.O.P.?
18:49
*whose
Standard Operating Procedure
@tchrist Yes. So they are sacrificing ease of use, economic efficiency in general, for...what I can only call mild deception.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 More circumlocutory corporate speak! Stop it! You're trying to deceive me by giving the impression that this is some Big Important Thing that I ought to respect!
@Cerberus well, "ease of use" and "economic efficiency" aren't a factor in the US or Canada, where you also have to do sales tax calculations
No, it's easier for buyers to assess the price at a glance if it is a round number, even before taxes.
@Cerberus It's not circumlocutary. which itself is a "big word" meant to mislead people.
18:52
I'm not talking about corporate administration: I'm talking about buyers.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That's why I used it.
@Cerberus Reliance on in-group acronyms is one of the defects shared by govspeak, milspeak, and corspeak alike — amongst other jargon-sets.
Yeah.
@tchrist QED, I guess.
@tchrist But also scientists. And not just abbreviations. I mean, look at the various badly worded Latin names for figures of speech...
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 What was to be demonstrated here again? I’ve lost track.
18:54
@Cerberus You noticed! blushes Wait... you're just imagining. slaps to sting
@tchrist I dunno. Cerb dragged me in by claiming I would object to a blanket statement about language usage and intention. The statement pretty much has to be false because it's so broad.
@Cerberus “. . . amongst other jargon-sets.”
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 All broad statements must be false, including this one.
@Mitch Yeah, I mean, I was just praising your ankles a gift to (wo)mankind, not to myself personally.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It worked, didn't it?
@tchrist I was not trying to contradict you.
Just adding something.
@Cerberus I need to ask about that.
18:58
@MattЭллен @AndrewLeach Why is “contradiction”, really contradicting someone to their face, considered such a horribly rude thing in England? It certainly is not held to be such by North Americans or Australians, although I shan’t speak for Kiwis.
It is also more common in Holland. The Dutch are considered rude by everyone.
I know this is a culture clash that causes Englishmen to think the rest of us rude, but I do not understand why.
Belgians do not contradict.
Non-chordates.
Just polite people...

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