English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

KitFox

16:00

Well, it wouldn't be so bad if I didn't feel stupid for doing something I know I don't know very well with the safeties off.

tchrist

Never let a cat walk across your keyboard while you are in vim. You might reformat your disk.

KitFox

Oh, here are some GUI tools. Maybe I can kludge from here.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox the safeties are all on. github has your back. you can make a pull at a specific rev and put it in a fresh directory, then delete the old one, if you want.

sorry, Kit, tme for me to go. I'll be back soon

KitFox

Thanks bye!

tchrist

You have to understand how wonderful vi was to people who'd been trapped in non-visual editors for all their lives. These are batch-edit type programs that don’t actually show you what you are changing. You just issue edit commands and then print the line to see if it worked. It was like always being in the dark.

KitFox

16:02

Local changes checked in to index but not committed.

It's mostly that I was flailing, in part because I figured I could undo it, but without actually checking how to undo it if I needed to first.

Which I should have done.

What's Blame do again?

tchrist

That lightning storm yesterday is the root cause of all my mail problems. The mail machine came up before DNS came up, and it started bouncing things it couldn’t reverse. I think it might have lost its status file in the power hit, because it lost track of what it had already fetched from the server. That means it was writing the status file when lightning struck.

So it was refetching everything from the POP3 server. Which I hadn’t been deleting. I thought the provider expired mail from there after 7 days. I am astonished that it seems to have everything from the last year. So I am manually flushing.

KitFox

Oh, I think I found something. Odd characters in the master file.

@tchrist Wow.

tchrist

@KitFox That sounds like either an encoding error or a cat on the keyboard.

KitFox

Looks like encoding. Any idea how to fix it?

tchrist

Sure.

Is it a lot or a little?

KitFox

16:07

I'm not sure. It's just a few characters, but it's showing bunches of stuff in the diff that don't actually look different.

I think it's one file.

tchrist

If it is just a few characters, you could paste them and I could paste back the fix.

But I now am curious about the diff.

KitFox

I think they need to be deleted and that would be that, except I can't see them in anything that I know how to edit with.

tchrist

Does git-diff let you pass extra arguments to finesse what diff pays attention to or not?

vim will show you invisible characters.

This sounds more and more like you have a file that is of mixed encoding.

I would say mail me the file but as you know my mail is bolluxed.

Hm.

I have an alternate mail drop you don’t know about that would work. And I could then fix the file and send it back to you.

Let me put the alternate mail address in the private place.

KitFox

Oh, wait. It's a .js file.

Can I change the extension without breaking it?

!!hello

Cerberus

The rule is that we have animal icons in this chat.

@terdon Muwahaha! You're doooomed! But I think 800 is a really good score. No idea what my scores were. I hope it wasn't 400 or something...

tchrist

16:17

@KitFox What do you mean?

KitFox

I can't mail a .js file.

tchrist

Oh, just put a .txt on the end then.

It does not matter to me.

KitFox

I wasn't sure if that would break it.

tchrist

It shouldn’t.

Why can’t you mail a *.js file?

It won’t attach?

Cerberus

Why is your mail bolluxed?

KitFox

16:19

Malicious code somesuch.

Cerberus

Put it in the text field?

tchrist

@Cerberus Lightning.

Cerberus

On Pastebin?

Lighting struck your e-mail?

tchrist

@KitFox Just rename its extension to something you can send, or delete the extension altogether.

@Cerberus That’s my best guess. I seem to have lost track of what POP3 message I had last retrieved.

Cerberus

Huh.

KitFox

16:20

Oh, duh, it's on my other computer anyway.

God I am being so stupid today.

It's on its way.

tchrist

OK, good.

KitFox

Now git want me to pull before I can commit.

tchrist

Snagged.

Rather, I got it.

Now let me see what's actually wrong.

Ok.

So, this is an ASCII text file with CRLF line terminators but for a (somewhat spurious) UTF-8 BOM in its first two bytes.

I would just remove the BOM. That is probably what is breaking everything. It usually does.

Do you want me to do that and mail it back to you?

Mitch

17

Q: "Soccer mom": why soccer?

...why not football mom, baseball mom, or basketball mom? Soccer mom, as far as I can tell, is an American term made popular during the 1996 presidential elections, used to describe a key demographic - mothers who, by spending lots of time shuttling their children to and from soccer practice, de...

KitFox

@tchrist Sure, that would be lovely thanks.

Mitch

16:26

The answers are all ... well of course they are opinions, but they're opinionated opinions.

And more importantly, they're not my opinions!

That's why discussions of religion and politics are so argumentative because there's no justification for anything.

Or rather, everything sounds like a justification. But isn't.

KitFox

!!hello

Jarvis the Bot

Hello

Mitch

hello

KitFox

hugs Jarvis Good girl.

tchrist

macbook# file comm*
commands-ascii.js:           ASCII text
commands-dos-ascii-noeol.js: ASCII text, with CRLF line terminators
commands.js:                 UTF-8 Unicode (with BOM) text, with CRLF line terminators

Cerberus

16:28

@Mitch God, that is a lot more awful than I would have thought.

I never knew why they used the term soccer mom, thought it was perhaps because it was an elitist sport in those countries.

Mitch

Exactly. Awful. Urban Dictionary was evoked as an authority.

Cerberus

No, the term and its origin.

KitFox

!!help eval

Mitch

The term sorta fits. But all the opinions about how it fits really brings out the crap about it.

Cerberus

What a wicked culture.

Mitch

16:31

In what way?

Cerberus

I am too naïve for this world.

tchrist

Sent.

KitFox

!!help

What the...?

tchrist

The bug was that you edited using something that put a BOM in the front of the file.

KitFox

OK. I will not do that in the future.

tchrist

16:32

A BOM in UTF-8 is not actually a BOM; it is data, and illegal to the js parser.

KitFox

Why was she working and then stopped again?

tchrist

So you have to save without BOM.

I dunno.

KitFox

sighs

Thanks for the assist.

tchrist

Did you reload with one of the files I sent?

Cerberus

@Mitch Well, if I am to believe the comments, it is about a kind of fascist discrimination against "less manly" kids and kids from poor families, and about how money is all important in life.

tchrist

16:33

I sent two versions, one with CRLF and one with LF. Shouldn’t make a diff though.

Cerberus

I guess many cultures harbour these ideals to some extent. But it's pretty horrible.

tchrist

Both are straight ASCII now.

KitFox

I haven't recompiled yet. I only just successfully rolled back the broken part. Well, I thought.

!!are you there?

Hmm.

!!refresh

Ryan

For anyone interested we just received a question about the usage of drop caps over at gd.se that I thought some here might like:

0

Q: Where should drop cap be suitable?

I wonder where drop caps should be used. So far, I only see them in column of newspaper. Are there any cases which drop caps shouldn't be used, like in scientific papers or brochures?

typography typesetting

tchrist

@KitFox In the future, when you vim a file with a BOM like that, you can write it out without the dumb thing using the editor command :set nobomb.

You can also check all your settings by typing :set by itself, and you will see that bomb is listed. This is the trouble.

Cerberus

16:40

@Ryan Interesting. Perhaps @tchrist has an opinion on whether or not it is on topic here. Or was that not your intention (it seems on topic for Graphic Design)?

tchrist

8

A: Why does VIM disregard my file's BOM?

You are confusing 'encoding' which is a Vim global setting, and 'fileencoding', which is a local setting to each buffer. When opening a file, the variable 'fileencodings' (note the final s) determines what encodings Vim will try to open the file with. If it starts with ucs-bom then any file with...

Now I’m getting certificate errors form gravatar.

Cerberus

Oh?

KitFox

@tchrist That's handy, thanks.

tchrist

@Ryan Drop caps are used whenever the typographer wants to show off his skills. :)

Or lack thereof.

Ryan

@Cerberus Didn't really mean for migration, just to see if any of you wanted to come by and leave an Answer

KitFox

16:42

Nah, we don't have anyone interested in typography in this room.

tchrist

You would not use them in a journal paper.

KitFox

looks evasive

tchrist

But those are in LᵃTₑX anyway.

KitFox

Speaking of showoffs.

Cerberus

@Ryan Ah OK, cool.

KitFox

16:43

I like dropcap and I also like small caps.

I particularly like small caps for yelling.

Cerberus

@tchrist What is a journal paper? A paper published in an academic journal?

KitFox

!!are you working yet?

Jarvis the Bot

@KitFox Certainly not

tchrist

macbook# echo a | unisupers
ᵃ
macbook# echo e | unisubs
ₑ
macbook# echo i particularly like small caps for yelling | unicaps
ɪ ᴘᴀʀᴛɪᴄᴜʟᴀʀʟʏ ʟɪᴋᴇ ꜱᴍᴀʟʟ ᴄᴀᴘꜱ ꜰᴏʀ ʏᴇʟʟɪɴɢ

KitFox

!!what is wrong with you?

Jarvis the Bot

16:44

@KitFox My pocket dictionary just isn't good enough for you.

tchrist

The thing is, the SMALL CAP for the “s” is a new character, and normally you should just use a lowercase s there instead.

KitFox

@tchrist I'm missing characters there. :/

Mitch

@Cerberus The comments and answers are mostly ... derogatory. what the term means is mostly not.

tchrist

@KitFox Just the s, right?

KitFox

And the f.

tchrist

16:45

ɪ ᴘᴀʀᴛɪᴄᴜʟᴀʀʟʏ ʟɪᴋᴇ sᴍᴀʟʟ ᴄᴀᴘs ꜰᴏʀ ʏᴇʟʟɪɴɢ

KitFox

A730. Right next to the S.

tchrist

Oh, yeah, I see that the f is hitting the fallback font.

Cerberus

@Mitch No?

KitFox

I will have to tinker with the bot again later. I am so far behind on work now.

Mitch

@Cerberus no.

tchrist

16:46

KitFox

Looks better on mine.

Cerberus

@Mitch OK.

KitFox

The S is less odd-looking.

tchrist

The f and s are not in the font used for the chatroom.

So it falls back to something that looks crappy.

The f and s were added to Unicode 5.1, while the rest were in Unicode 4.0.

And all the question marks are gravatar cert failures.

Hm. I wonder if this is a more general problem.

fetchmail: Server certificate verification error: unable to get local issuer certificate
fetchmail: Server certificate verification error: certificate not trusted
fetchmail: Issuer Organization: StartCom Ltd.
fetchmail: Issuer CommonName: StartCom Class 2 Primary Intermediate Server CA
fetchmail: Server CommonName: *.indra.com

KitFox

You are surely having some odd issues over there.

tchrist

16:51

But that’s on the mail machine, not even on this Mac.

So now why would two unrelated machines start getting cert failures? Hm.

KitFox

Must be your cert.

Mitch

@Cerberus Women tend to drive their kids to afterschool sports activities. one of those is soccer (in the US it's popular organized activity for school age kids). labeling that as a demographic (20 years ago) made it a thing. Shorthand for voters who are moms, that's all.

Cerberus

Why not some other sport? Those comments are all wrong?

Mitch

baseball/basketball/football is really only done by boys, but soccer is done by both girls and boys, so it seems more inclusive to say it that way (the demographic is not moms of boys but moms).

KitFox

@Mitch Middle class liberal yuppie moms.

Mitch

16:54

suburban

because minvan

KitFox

Suburban. That's it.

Mitch

and possibly have political leanings that would sway elections. like title IX, or education instead of war

KitFox

Soccer is more common on account of it's sort of a symbolic "my kid is doing a sport" thing.

Mitch

right, either male or female. (because little league is almost entirely boys)

KitFox

Also baseball/football/basketball are all serious sports, unlike soccer.

tchrist

16:56

Title IX

Title IX is a portion of the Education Amendments of 1972, Public Law No. 92‑318, 86 Stat. 235 (June 23, 1972), codified at 20 U.S.C. sections 1681 through 1688, co-authored and introduced by Senator Birch Bayh; it was renamed the Patsy Mink Equal Opportunity in Education Act in 2002, after its House co-author and sponsor. It states (in part) that: History Foundation and Hearings Although the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was written in order to end discrimination in various fields based on religion, race, color, or national origin, in the area of employment the Act also prohibited sex...

Mitch

'soccer mom' is only derogatory for those with derogatory thoughts about it.

KitFox

Right.

tchrist

@Kit If you used Notepad on a UTF-8 text file, it spuriously inserts a UTF-8 BOM. This breaks code.

And ASCII is a subset of UTF-8, actually.

So wicked.

Mitch

Using it derogatorily is like making fun of your mom for making brownies. "Only losers do things for other people"

KitFox

Right. Like as American as Mom and apple pie is only crappy if you hate pie.

Or your mom.

gets lost in thought

Cerberus

17:00

OK that sounds better.

The thing is, hockeymoeder is derogatory in Dutch...

Mitch

holy crap what does that mean?

hockey mother?

HOw is that derogatory?

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus you guys play hockey? Ice hockey?

KitFox

hockey mom is kind of derogatory.

Johan Larsson

what mom-combos are not btw?

Mitch

@KitFox how is that?

KitFox

17:02

Because what kind of horrible, aggressive person would encourage her son play hockey?

Mitch

Because they'll run you over with their minivan?

@KitFox I know many

KitFox

I rest my case.

Mitch

OK, really, I know only two.

skullpatrol

Don't think of it as encouraging aggression, it's learning competitive sportsmanship.

Mitch

@skullpatrol And orthodontics

skullpatrol

17:07

!!wiki orthodontics

Jarvis the Bot

Orthodontics

Orthodontics, formally orthodontics and dentofacial orthopedics, is the first specialty of dentistry that is concerned with the study and treatment of malocclusions (improper bites), which may be a result of tooth irregularity, disproportionate jaw relationships, or both. Orthodontic treatment can focus on dental displacement only, or can deal with the control and modification of facial growth. In the latter case it is better defined as "dentofacial orthopaedics". Methods For comprehensive orthodontic treatment, most commonly, metal wires ("Jushi") are inserted into orthodontic brackets...

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

I would like some pie.

Mitch

go for it.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

We are watching futbol at work.

KitFox

Pie does sound rather good.

Mitch

17:08

save me some for later (but hide it so no one else can get it)

Johan Larsson

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 the game is not very good, think the rain hurts it a bit

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson Nooo field hockey! It's quite popular here. I think it is the 4th sport in the world by number of players, or something?

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 I think it's futebol?

Mitch

@skullpatrol oh, then I meant whatever surgeon makes teeth implants. maxillofacial surgeon?

Cerberus

@Mitch Hockey is seen as a bit of an elite sport.

skullpatrol

@Mitch Teaching kids to compete for what they want is a good thing, no?

Mitch

17:10

@Cerberus so those moms are considered elitist?

KitFox

I've got a list of six 'roles' that are not mutually exclusive. I want to offer this as a row with the person's name and checkboxes for checking off the appropriate roles. How do I make the labels effective and compact?

Cerberus

@Mitch Hockey moms have too much time on their hands and are too involved in their kids' lives. They will attend every match and keep spurring on their child and interfering with the coach and stuff. And they will gossip and sniff at people.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Johan it's messing with the uplink, that's for sure.

@Cerb sounds like US soccer moms.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus sniffs

Cerberus

Haha, yes?

Matt Эллен

17:12

you don't smell like a hockey mom

Mitch

@Cerberus derogatory!

Cerberus

@MattЭллен What is hockey like in England? Is it also elitist? I think it's fairly mainstream in most of the (former) Commonwealth?

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@Cerberus That’s how I’ve always understood the term soccer mom, too. Someone who is too involved, in an annoying way, and is super-protective of anything their children do.

Cerberus

@Mitch Absolutely.

Mitch

@MattЭллен don't put your nose there then.

@JanusBahsJacquet that's helicopter parenting. People are so judgmental

Cerberus

17:13

@JanusBahsJacquet OK I assumed it was something like that without knowing whether it was true, but then I saw the comments. But Mitch seems to be saying we were right and the comments are wrong. But I'm not sure about the status of soccer in America.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus it's not very main stream. it is played in schools. girls are more known for it than boys

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Hmm girls, I see.

And what kind of people?

Mitch

soccer is not a popular professional sport. but it is a popular alternative for younger people outside of school.

Cerberus

(Hockey is not particularly expensive: all you need is a stick and a ball and one of those mouth pieces, none of which are expensive.)

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus Well, as far as I can tell, regular people.

Cerberus

17:15

Ah OK, so nothing out of the ordinary, reputation-wise.

Matt Эллен

I mean, it's not televised much outside international games, e.g. olympics

@Cerberus no

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@Mitch Yeah, to me those two terms are almost synonyms. The only difference, I think, is that I’d usually use helicopter parenting for someone who meddles in their childrens lives against the childrens wish, and mostly when the children are older or grown up. Soccer moms meddle in other people’s impacts in their childrens lives, if that makes sense.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен OK.

Mitch

and it is a popular sport for girls. (because boys already have lots of alternatives football baseball hockey etc)

Cerberus

@JanusBahsJacquet To me, helico-pter moms also manifest themselves at a younger age, when their 10-y-o child is not allowed to walk home with a friend, or something.

@Mitch Interesting. Football is mostly a man's sport here: not many women play it.

I know one girl who plays football.

Johan Larsson

17:17

In Sweden it is 50-50 I think, at leat at younger ages

Mitch

@JanusBahsJacquet so you would use 'soccer mom' only derogatorily?

Cerberus

Whereas the majority of people who play a sport play football, I think.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@Cerberus Same here—(soccer) football is mostly boys. Handball is more common with girls.

Cerberus

Haha, handball?

tchrist

tsk

Janus Bahs Jacquet

17:18

@Mitch Yes, absolutely. I wouldn’t use it just for the demographic of women who take their kids to soccer practice. I don’t think I have a word for that, actually.

Cerberus

@JanusBahsJacquet That is considered...I don't know, provincial here. Along with (Dutch) basketball (which is different from American basketball).

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus hint, played with the hands :)

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@Cerberus What’s wrong with handball? We’re like five-time world/Olympic champions or something!

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson You don't say!

Mitch

@JanusBahsJacquet for me helicopter parenting evokes more about preteens and not giving them any freedom, organizing absolutely every second of their time.

Cerberus

17:18

@JanusBahsJacquet Nothing, nothing! It's just not "cool" here for some reason.

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus you can never be sure about those things

Mitch

@Cerberus right. who wins the women's world cup?

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson True, true...

Johan Larsson

One strange thing is that riding is girls only for some reason.

Cerberus

@Mitch No idea! But women's hockey is quite popular here. As is tennis.

Johan Larsson

17:19

Maybe it hurts too much for boys?

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson Horse-riding? Yes.

Haha.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@Mitch Funny … preteen-freedom-limiting would also be helicopter parenting to me, but the first thing that comes to mind when I hear the term is the parent who’s constantly calling/visiting their grown-up kid in college, bossing them around like they never left home.

Cerberus

Oh, not for me!

Mitch

@JohanLarsson nowadays. a hundred years ago it was totally for dudes.

Cerberus

I would probably not call that helico-pter parenting.

@JanusBahsJacquet Speaking of Greek, how did your Pindar go?

@Mitch Yes, well, or both sexes.

Mitch

17:21

polo - a guys sport, back then

Johan Larsson

From what I have seen riding is a tough sport, ambulance is not uncommon on competitions.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

It went all right—I did actually get some Pindar (and some Odyssey), the part that came right after the bit I last-minute-revised earlier. :-D

Cerberus

@JanusBahsJacquet Hmm is that good or bad?

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@JohanLarsson Is bandy mainly boys or equal?

Cerberus

Which lines was it? Now I wan to look them up.

I don't think I could translate Pindar à vue!

Janus Bahs Jacquet

17:22

Well, it would have been easier if they’d given me the piece I’d actually read … but I just about managed to look up all the words in both the texts that I didn’t know.

It was the Nemean Odes I, 35–49. And then Odyssey, 11th song (I think), 390–405.

Johan Larsson

@JanusBahsJacquet don't know, bandy is such a small sport here. I currently live in Sweden's bandy city #1. Still no idea, don't hear much about it.

Mitch

OK, I'll bite. What's 'bandy'?

Johan Larsson

floorball & basketball is probably 60-40

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@JohanLarsson Really? That’s odd—where my parents live, bandy is the sport. Absolutely everyone plays it.

!!wiki Bandy

Jarvis the Bot

Bandy

Bandy is a team winter sport played on ice, in which skaters use sticks to direct a ball into the opposing team's goal. The sport has common background with association football, ice hockey and field hockey. Like football, the game is played in halves of 45 minutes each, there are eleven players on each team, and the bandy field is about the same size as a football pitch. It is played on ice like ice hockey, but like field hockey, players use bowed sticks and a small ball. If it is very cold or if it is snowing, the match can be broken into thirds of 30 minutes each. A variant of ba...

Cerberus

17:24

@JanusBahsJacquet You said you would get a text you had already read, so was it a mistake?

Johan Larsson

@JanusBahsJacquet where do they live?

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@Cerberus No no, we had read it during class, about three months ago. But I hadn’t revised it, so I’d only seen the text once before, when we went through it in class.

@JohanLarsson Between Laholm and Örkelljunga, right next to Kungsbygget.

Cerberus

Ah, OK.

I have no idea what the ode was about again, and 35 starts in the middle of a sentence, and I see words I don't remember...arg!

Mitch

!!wiki floorball

Cerberus

@Mitch Still is!

Jarvis the Bot

17:27

@Mitch That didn't make much sense. Use the !!/help command to learn more.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@Cerberus Yup, that’s basically how I felt!

Jarvis the Bot

Floorball

Floorball, a type of floor hockey, is an indoor team sport which was developed in the 1970s in Sweden. Floorball is most popular in areas where the sport has developed the longest, such as the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Latvia, Norway, Sweden, and Switzerland. The game is played indoors on a wooden or rubber mat floor or just a basketball court, making it a year-round sport at amateur and professional levels. There are professional leagues, such as Finland's Salibandyliiga and Sweden's Svenska Superligan. While there are 55 members of the International Floorball Federati...

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@Cerberus It’s the ode to Chromius of Aetna who won some chariot race or other. Goes on about Hera sending snakes off to kill Herakles and his twin when they were born.

Cerberus

@JanusBahsJacquet Haha, OK.

@JanusBahsJacquet Ah. That sounds very vaguely familiar.

I must have read that ten years ago.

Mitch

@JanusBahsJacquet Hera was obviously a soccer mom.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

17:29

Thankfully, it being Pindar, they weren’t too hard on me about that piece. Having a bit of trouble figuring out exactly what logically went with what here and there didn’t matter much.

Johan Larsson

@Mitch we played some recreational floorball when we were kids, the goal was always to try to break each others gear. An accurate stomp on the stick was effective.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@Mitch Indeed! Herakles had beaten her son in a soccer match last week—time for serpents!

Cerberus

OK.

> κατακρύψαις † part sg aor act masc nom doric aeolic

See, I didn't even know this.

Mitch

@JohanLarsson kids are little bastards!

Cerberus

I assumed feminine.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

17:30

> “Floorball is most popular in areas where the sport has developed the longest, such as the Czech Republic, Denmark…” – eeeeerhm, all right.

Cerberus

And not nominative!

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Except I’d never heard of it before they played it in the Outgames in 2009 here …

Mitch

@JanusBahsJacquet well, it was jealousy of Hera against her husband's mistress the mother of Herakles

Johan Larsson

here it is pretty common to play it in gym class

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@Cerberus No, that’s one thing I do know about Pindar. He shares the Sapphic development of *Vns > Vis (except thematic accusative plural feminine, because that would coincide with the dative).

Johan Larsson

17:32

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 this Jones guy has been in horizontal position 21% of the game

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Anyone remember Serial Mom? That’s always been my exact (though of course slightly exaggerated) idea of what a soccer mom is.

@Cerberus Hence also why μάρψαις is aor ptc act nom sg masc.

Oh, wait, that was the same ending.

But he has Μοῖσα as well, instead of Μοῦσα.

Cerberus

@JanusBahsJacquet OK I didn't know that. Is it Sapphic, or just Lesbian?

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Can’t remember. Lesbian, probably—it’s a dialectal feature. Trying to remember whether it’s Doric too.

Cerberus

@JanusBahsJacquet Hmm for some reason that does not surprise me.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

No, not Doric. Aeolic.

Cerberus

17:37

Perseus says it could also be a Doric vocative masculine singular.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Doric of course has Μῶσα.

Cerberus

Did they ask anything about θαητὰν?

I presume it is related to theaô?

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Don’t think so. Only came up when I was going identifying long ᾶ’s.

Yes, it is.

It’s θηητός in Ionic

Cerberus

So I saw.

So is it a kind of metathesis or something?

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Johan yeah.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

17:41

Don’t think so. Probably more of the general clusterfuck that is shortening and lengthening of α and η when they come together.

Cerberus

Ah, lovely.

So what did they ask?

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Mostly just etymologies and things like explaining the -αις endings historically, etc., finding cognates for words.

Cerberus

An example?

Like a cognate question?

I probably won't know it...

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Managed to confuse myself a bit about whether I wanted the singular ἐγκατέβᾱ and the plural ἐβαν to be from the same grade or not. :-S

Cerberus

Ah, I was looking at that.

Why would they be of different grades...because of the long a or something?

Janus Bahs Jacquet

17:48

Well, δάκρυα, for instance: Lat. lacrima (from dacrima, though probably borrowed from Greek anyway), Germ. *tēhura- (or something—‘tear’, etc.), Skt. aśrú- (I think).

Cerberus

Lacrima/lacruma I knew.

Traan, I did not!

Is traan related to tear? Probably?

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Well, the long a definitely goes back to a full grade *e-gʷeh₂-t, but the plural can be either full-grade *e-gʷh₂-ent or *egʷeh₂-nt. The latter would give ἐβᾱν, but that would be shortened anyway by Osthoff’s Law, which operates before final *-nt is simplified to -n.

Traan is the Dutch word for ‘tear’?

Oh yeah, träne in German, too. (Or tränen or something.)

That almost has to be an actual metathesis. Apparently the OHG form was trahan, which can only be metathesised from *tharan or something like that.

Cerberus

@JanusBahsJacquet Hmm I see. So no analogy there?

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Don’t think analogy could wreak that much havoc.

Cerberus

ἐβᾱν isn't that much havoc?

Janus Bahs Jacquet

17:55

It’s a strange form. It is also possible it’s not related at all—after all, both English and Norse reflect *tēhura-.

Cerberus

OK I can see how trahan points to metathesis.

What is a strange form?

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Oh, I thought you meant in the tear word. No, in ἐβα it’s not analogy.

The German/Dutch träne/traan.

Of course, German should have zräne, but I don’t think that’s phonotactically possible.

They do apparently have Zähre (meaning the same thing), though, which is definitely the same as the English and Norse.

(Actually, not *tēhura-, just *tēhru- or *tēhra-.)

Cerberus

Yeah, zr- is not possible.

I'm afraid I know little to nothing about languages outside Greek/Italic/Germanic.

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