English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

1:00 PM

I now have three monitors gracing my desk. Count 'em, three. Kind of a three-bears setup: Papa bear (27" 180p), mama bear (24.5" 1920x1200) and baby bear (24" 1920x1080).

I suppose they should all be 27", but there's not enough room.

Johan Larsson

@Robusto The Wolf right?

Robusto

@JohanLarsson None other.

skullpatrol

Don't forget Goldilocks

Robusto

@Robusto First reference should be 1080p, not 180p. D'oh!

180p would suck.

Alraxite

Hmm, didn't know you could reply to your own message.

skullpatrol

1:10 PM

How?

Robusto

It's simple, if you think about it.

Alraxite

@Alraxite Test

Damn.

Wait.

Robusto

Hint: What happens when you reply to someone else's message?

skullpatrol

I get banned?

Alraxite

I think using some script you can view each message's ID in the message itself.

That was tedious.

Andrew Leach

1:11 PM

@AndrewLeach A Churchillism about Attlee.

Coo. It works. And a ping.

skullpatrol

"Coo"

^ is that a word?

Alraxite

@Alraxite Agreed.

skullpatrol

!!define coo

Jarvis

@skullpatrol coo The murmuring sound made by a dove or pigeon.

Andrew Leach

@skullpatrol Jarvis can't be right all the time.

skullpatrol

1:14 PM

@AndrewLeach you're a pigeon?

Andrew Leach

oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/coo?q=coo#coo-2

British informal. But I don't squeak.

skullpatrol

@AndrewLeach you're worser than the math guys using a sledge hammer to kill a mosquito

Andrew Leach

But sledgehammers work.

Alraxite

So, each message gets it ID sequentially as they are posted on the whole SE chat network.

Test.

OK. So my second last message was 193 while the last one was 194.

While the previous one is 201.

So, 6 chat messages were posted in that time period.

skullpatrol

@AndrewLeach have you studied at Oxford?

Andrew Leach

1:20 PM

No. But OUP has a large dictionary output.

Alraxite

I'll try to reply to my own message provided I'm able to predict my to-be-posted message's ID beforehand.

OK>

t

:16200225 a

Didn't work.

skullpatrol

@AndrewLeach Do they have one entire library devoted to the OED?

Alraxite

Test.

:16200235 a

I did it.

Nothing happened though.

No ping.

Andrew Leach

@Alraxite The message with 16200235 in it is message 1620035.

The number needs to be the number of the message you're replying to.

Alraxite

@AndrewLeach I missed a 2?

skullpatrol

1:24 PM

sorry, if that is a dumb question

Andrew Leach

@Alraxite No, I did.

@skullpatrol The OED only needs a shelf. But there is an entire department in OUP working on it and its little brothers.

Alraxite

@AndrewLeach Yes, I know. That's what I tried. I had written colon 16200235

It turned into @Alraxite.

I thought it'd do something more.

Nothing.

Ir was supposed to reply to itself.

Andrew Leach

I see a message with :16200235 a in it.

skullpatrol

I would think they have an English dictionary library, no?

Alraxite

Oh.

On refreshing, that's gone.

It now looks as you say.

It turned into @Alraxite for me when I posted it.

Andrew Leach

1:27 PM

That's because that is 16200235. You can't reply to itself.

There's some clever pre- and post-formatting of numbers/names.

Alraxite

@AndrewLeach Yeah, I realised that

I was hoping it'd break chat or something.

Andrew Leach

They probably included that in the testing :-)

Alraxite

@AndrewLeach I probably can't reply to future messages either.

Andrew Leach

@skullpatrol Dictionaries only take up a small part of the Dewey Classification System. And the Bodleian is a Deposit Library, which receives at least one copy of everything published in the UK.

Alraxite

Nope!

Haha.

Andrew Leach

1:31 PM

I got pinged.

Alraxite

@AndrewLeach Yay.

Perhaps I can make it happen without editing it too...

Andrew Leach

And if I hover over the "probably can't" message, the one beneath it lights up.

Alraxite

But I'll need to time it.

@AndrewLeach Yes!

Heh.

People might have trouble following this conversation.

1
:16200358 2

Robusto

Doves coo, cows moo, and monkeys poo. Lawyers sue, too.

Alraxite

OK. Let me see if I can do this without editing.

@Alraxite a

a

b

d

e

Didn't work.

It was supposed to point to the 'd' message.

:16200419

Oh, that may be due to me not writing anything.

OK.

:16200443

Damnit.

:16200445 a

c

It's difficult with the spam timeout.

Missed.

c

I'll try it later.

Robusto

1:51 PM

@Robusto Pinging myself. Again.

@Robusto How's about now?

Alraxite

@Robusto It didn't make a sound when I pinged myself.

Ping me, please.

@Robusto Ping.

Nope. Broken.

@Alraxite Hmm.

1:54 PM

Him don't ping me no mo'.

Alraxite

I did it! Yay!

A self-replying message.

Behold!

So, you can accomplish that by editing.

user116848

Hi guys

Alraxite

Hi.

user116848

Can we have a small grammar Q&A?

user116848

I need to ask something

Robusto

1:58 PM

Yes. Just copy the URL of a permalink to a message, strip off all but the final number, put a : in front of it and a space after it, and type your message after the space.

@Robusto Testing again.

Hmm, still doesn't ping me.

Ah, that's it.

I connected my speakers after I logged in here.

Andrew Leach

@Arrowfar Go ahead and ask.

Alraxite

@Robusto Or note it down from the pop-up which appears on hovering over the left part of the message.

Robusto

@Alraxite If that is easier for you.

Alraxite

Looks quicker to me.

Test.

@Alraxite ab

a

b

c

Alrighty then.

Doesn't work.

However, if I edit it...

OK. So you can't ping stuff before it's been posted or is being posted.

So, you can only edit.

Cerberus

29 secs ago, by Cerberus

24 secs ago, by Cerberus

21 secs ago, by Cerberus

18 secs ago, by Cerberus

15 secs ago, by Cerberus

8 secs ago, by Cerberus

@Alraxite Hello.

Alraxite

2:12 PM

Impressive!

Cerberus

Copy the permalink to your own line.
Edit your line, copy-paste the link.

Alraxite

1 min ago, by Alraxite

54 secs ago, by Alraxite

40 secs ago, by Alraxite

22 secs ago, by Alraxite

11 secs ago, by Alraxite

Okay.

Cerberus

The second, third, etc. time, all you have to do is edit your line, but don't change anything, just press enter.

Alraxite

Oh

@Cerberus Right. I'll stop.

Cerberus

Haha.

Alraxite

2:28 PM

So, going by the message IDs, sixteen and a fifth million chat messages have been posted to date

And that fifth comes from @Cerberus.

Cerberus

Haha.

Only so few?

Alraxite

Yeah, I'm disappointed

@Cerb Is there anyone who has posted more in chat than you have?

Or, do you know of anyone...

You may be the most talkative dog on this whole planet.

Cerberus

@Alraxite No.

I am!

Three tongues help.

Alraxite

Congratulations.

I wonder if it's possible to do one of those Data SE queries.

Even if it was, I've no way of figuring it out.

@Cerberus You constitute 1.4% of all the messages ever posted in chat. Wow.

Cerberus

2:52 PM

Yay!

Johan Larsson

ha

Alraxite

Oh, I can probably find the first message ever posted in chat then

in Chat feedback, Oct 18 '10 at 9:14, by Feeds

All feedback welcome!

Not sure I expected something more.

in Chat feedback, Oct 18 '10 at 9:14, by Feeds

Feedback can also be posted on meta using the [chat] tag

Second.

in The SE Tavern, Oct 18 '10 at 9:14, by Feeds

Welcome to chat.stackexchange.com

Third.

Cerberus

Yeah.

But we arrived soon after!

Alraxite

chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/0#0

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus how come you found this chat?

Alraxite

3:02 PM

Was making sure whether the index started at 0 or 1.

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson I had been very active on the site answering questions.

Then I found chat.

There was often nobody there. But the log was tantalizing.

You?

Johan Larsson

!!define tantalizing

Alraxite

@Cerberus And then it happened.

Jarvis

@JohanLarsson tantalizing Teasing; tempting, but beyond reach.

Cerberus

Indeed, it did.

Johan Larsson

3:05 PM

@Cerberus I'm reg lurker in almost every room on SO, came here with a question and liked you guys.

Cerberus

Yay!

Do you think this chat room is unfriendly to new users?

Phenry kept complaining about how off-putting our room is.

Wants to "change" things.

Lost my vote.

Alraxite

Can you take your vote back after voting?

Oh, and I don't think the chat's unfriendly

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus the opposite, I'm used to the c++ room, there they just bin questions from driveby askers

Andrew Leach

@Alraxite You can change your votes right up to the deadline.

Alraxite

I see.

the inside jokes are perhaps a bit overwhelming

Cerberus

3:11 PM

@JohanLarsson Ow, OK, that's not so nice...although, on the other hand, nobody is obliged to answer questions. When one isn't in the mood...

Alraxite

but I'm not sure if that puts off users

Cerberus

OK.

And compared to other chat rooms? Rooms with lots of activity should be compared.

english.stackexchange.com/election?cb=1

Change your votes here!

Alraxite

Hehe.

Much earlier I used to come here to ask questions. Everyone was nice.

Cerberus

Oh, good.

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus I can't, not enough rep

Cerberus

3:15 PM

Aww.

Ask some Questions!

Alraxite

Or look for some SWRs.

Cerberus

Hehe.

Alraxite

3:26 PM

@Cerberus BTW, is gmail the only email provider you use, or do you use some others?

Well, you said nothing that would suggest you use gmail...

but many use it.

so I assumed.

Cerberus

I use Gmail and others.

Why?

I probably shouldn't use Gmail. But I'm too lazy to switch.

Same for Google Calendar.

Alraxite

I've been trying to systematize my online activity. So, I've decided to create a new set of emails.

@Cerberus Why?

Cerberus

Well, Google steals your data.

Alraxite

Hmm.

Cerberus

And it already has so many of your data through other means.

Alraxite

3:30 PM

I was thinking I'd make all of them gmail.

Cerberus

So it's probably best to use an independent, reliable e-mail provider.

Alraxite

Such as...?

Yahoo?

Cerberus

One that promises not to read your e-mail or sell them.

I haven't looked into it, but I believe there are some good ones from German and/or Switzerland.

Andrew Leach

@Alraxite Ha ha ha ha ...

Alraxite

Oh.

I don't think I've data worth being stolen

I mean, by someone like Google

Andrew Leach

3:33 PM

@Alraxite You may not have; but if your account gets hacked, your contacts' email addresses are leaked.

So they start getting spam.

Cerberus

> American email provider Lavabit, the service supposedly used by Edward Snowden to protect himself from NSA snooping, was closing down. A letter posted on the website explaining the move seemed to refer to a court order from the American government asking for cooperation in its spy programs.

The move left some 300,000 users with defunct email accounts. Ladar Levison, the company's owner and operator, issued a clear warning to users: "I would strongly recommend against anyone trusting their private data to a company with physical ties to the United States."

@Alraxite Oh, you absolutely do.

Google uses everyone's data.

Alraxite

Right...

I mean, they could sell my data to their sponsors

So, that I'll get more personalized adverts?

Cerberus

They process them to show your targeted advertisements, fine-tune their marketing tools, etc. And, as Andrew says, the information they have gleaned from your online behaviour, e-mails, web search, etc., neatly sorted out to map your personality and economic status and such (presumably) in a comprehensive profile, can be stolen by hackers. It has happened to Google already at least once, that we know, by the NSA's tapping Google's cables.

The profile may also include your age, location, birthday, health issues, sexual preferences, and what not.

We simply do not know.

Alraxite

OK. Thanks for informing me.

I'm going to sound stubborn, but I'll still perhaps use gmail. At least one gmail account.

I mean, I don't know, but I'm not really concerned if the NSA has my data

I'm not sure. What exactly can they do to me?

Advertisements?

more spam perhaps.

As for getting hacked

that's certainly possible, but I'll say it's statistically unlikely that my account in particular will get hacked

out of everyone else's

Andrew Leach

It's statistically more likely that your account will be hacked on Yahoo, Hotmail or GMail than any other provider.

Alraxite

3:41 PM

Well, yes...

It's just that Google has many services.

Andrew Leach

So avoid those three.

Alraxite

Which do you use?

If you don't mind telling...

Andrew Leach

FastMail: an Australian company which has apparently successfully fought off an attempt to access its US servers. Webmail uses HTTPS. It's not free.

Sending through an authenticated SMTP service in the UK. Not free either.

Alraxite

OK.

Andrew Leach

Their cheapest account is $6/yr. I'm involved in migrating a hacked Yahoo account to a FastMail account at the moment. They make it easy. I used to use GMail.

I do still use Google Calendar because FastMail doesn't offer a synchable one.

So far.

Alraxite

3:44 PM

So, you do have a Google account.

But not GMail.

Okay.

Andrew Leach

Yes; I even have a GMail account still, but it's basically a throwaway account.

I use an adblocker, so I'm not worried about ads.

TRiG

@tchrist Well, since @FumbleFingers offered his answer in a comment, there's wasn't really a better option.

Cerberus

@Alraxite Everyone's accounts get hacked at once if they break into your e-mail provider, that is the problem. And the e-mail itself may not be the problem, but the aggregate profile that Google has on you may be.

Maybe you will be stopped at some border control. Maybe your insurance will be rejected for no apparent reason. Etc.

@AndrewLeach Hmm I think the Anglo-Saxon countries don't have the best privacy laws in the world?

The German-speaking ones often do, though.

But maybe Fastmail is good, I'll believe you.

Andrew Leach

The UK Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act is rather good, actually.

Compared to others.

Cerberus

And yet...

I don't know enough about it, but the GCHQ is pretty lawless?

Andrew Leach

3:51 PM

Google web traffic is "external" and can be intercepted without a specific warrant.

Traffic within the UK cannot be. Needs the Secretary of State's approval.

Cerberus

So they ask the NSA to do it for them and get the data from them. And v.v.

Our own secret service is not much better btw.

And even the Germans seem to do it.

But at least their laws are said to be rather paranoid about privacy.

(This is called "privacy laundering", by the way.)

Alraxite

@Cerberus Okay. Perhaps I trust Google too much in enforcing their security..

Anyway, thanks for the help

Cerberus

@Alraxite I use too many of Google's things too.

But, if I could start anew, I would certainly not pick Gmail for my main e-mail.

Theodore Broda

5:37 PM

@mitch Is a wee bairn the same in New Zealand as it is in Tasmania?

Robusto

@AndrewLeach gmail uses https protocol as well.

Mitch

@TheodoreBroda Glad you asked that.

It's kind of an obscure question.

One that I would never expect to be even imagined.

Robusto

@TheodoreBroda To a Scotsman, yes.

Mitch

So if a Glaswegian marries a Taswegian...

And they have a little kid...

Then that'll be one Easter feast!

@TheodoreBroda I have no idea about hthe appropriate answer. I can't tell NZE from AusE.

But @cornbreadninja麵包忍者 can.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Do what now?

Theodore Broda

5:44 PM

@Mitch Does the wee lad move to Auckland? Where does New Zealand come in?

Mitch

Is Tasmanian English have any noticeable differences from basic Australian?

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Don't play coy.

Or any casino games. The house will always win

@TheodoreBroda I'm sure there are child protection laws that will prevent anything terrible.

Theodore Broda

@Mitch Crikey, mate! Can @cornbreadninja麵包忍者 understand those antipodeans?

Mitch

@TheodoreBroda THe only way I can answer that is if you tell me how to prononuce 'antipodeans'.

Also how to spel.

tchrist

@TheodoreBroda Isn’t that an outhouse in the Ozarks?

Theodore Broda

@tchrist I done reckon it is, misser.

@Mitch On the off chance that you were being serious, the pronunciation is /ˌantɪpəˈdiːən/. I am using it humorously to refer to Aussies and New Zealanders, because they live at the (approximate) opposite side of the world from me.

Mitch

5:53 PM

OK how about 'polysemy'?

Theodore Broda

@Mitch /pɒlɪsiːmi/ for Britons, /pɑlisɛmi/ for Americans.

Mitch

where does the stress go?

No matter what they all sound bad.

Theodore Broda

@Mitch The primary stress is usually on the first syllable (for either pronunciation), but it is also acceptable on the second. Inserting IPA characters on my computer is hard, though.

@Mitch Wait, I have a correction. Merriam-Webster lists /pɑˈliˌsimi/ as the preferred pronunciation.

It also lists /ˈpɑliˌsimi/. I guess it is a word of many pronunciations.

Mitch

6:10 PM

Both sound terrible to me. puh LIH suh mee. POL ih SIH mee. ugh. Stupid dictionaries and their elitist authoritarianism.

Theodore Broda

@tchrist I meant "ah done reckon..." I believe the diphthong /aɪ/ is monophthongized to /aː/ in most dialects of Southern American English.

tchrist

@TheodoreBroda rɑ:t

Theodore Broda

@Mitch I prefer my dictionaries to be descriptive, rather than prescriptive. Wait, who am I kidding? I love unfettered elitism; ostentation is my thing.

Mitch

If you love it so much why don't you marry it?

I prefer fettered elitism. Kinda kinky.

tchrist

0

A: Pronunciation of foreign words by foreign speakers

This is really simple. When speaking English, you speak English. The correct English pronunciation is the correct English pronunciation. And English doesn't so much as have all the sounds needed to pronounce words borrowed from French the French way. The French pronunciation is plain not possible...

Mitch

6:16 PM

which reminds me of a joke. What's the difference between kinky and perverted?

tchrist

Some dork has downvoted him.

But he’s right.

Your point about the French pronunciation not even being possible in English is important, and which many folks don’t realize. English and French aren’t in the same category in their general articulation: you have to hold your mouth in a totally different way for one as for the other. English has a looser articulation than French (or IT or ES), but there are many other differences. To suddenly switch your particular “mouth-setting” (articulation) for a foreign word is jarring. See here for a layman’s overview of this. — tchrist 57 mins ago

Mitch

Right in downvoting or right in answer?

tchrist

@ThirdNews Except that that is not really possible. When speaking English, a Spanish name like Ricardo will never sound like it is pronounced Spanish. In English it will be [ɻʷəˈkʰɑɹdoʊ̯] while in Spanish it will be [riˈkäɾð̪̞o̞], and there is virtually no overlap in actual phones there at all between the two versions. Your mouth can’t switch mid-phrase to the other articulation set for just one word. You could no more switch to saying Richard in the middle of a Spanish sentence. The sounds are just not there. — tchrist 2 mins ago

@Mitch Reg’s answer is right.

Theodore Broda

@tchrist Where I live, they would pronounce it /ɹæːjətʰ/. With the "Carolina Drawl", it takes five minutes to utter a single "sihlahbuhhhl".

Mitch

But if you're a native X speaker, giving a speech in Y, and you coe across a borrowing of a Y phrase into X, it is very easy to speak natively and pronounce as in the original. Very easy to switch.

tchrist

6:19 PM

@TheodoreBroda There are no monosyllabic words in Suvvern.

Mitch

'Ah' for 'I'

Theodore Broda

@Mitch Theodore Broda cordially invites ye to a most pretentious ceremony of matrimony. Does anyone object to the nuptials? No matter, ye are all mere plebeians; Theodore Broda will disregard your objections.

Theodore Broda refers to himself in third person.

Chuck Norris refers to himself in fourth person.

tchrist

@TheodoreBroda Chuck Norris speaks Diné?

Theodore Broda

@tchrist Chuck Norris speaks his mind.

Incidentally, Chuck Norris recently won American Idol after singing in sign language.

Cerberus

6:35 PM

@tchrist I think every single post on that page is one-sided or simplistic.

It is not that hard to switch to a different language for just one word.

The fact that one often doesn't do so doesn't mean it is impossible.

An excessive fear of pretence is bourgeois, as is excessive pretence.

Theodore Broda

@Cerberus Yes, for instance you sometimes switch to English briefly instead of Latin.

Cerberus

I try not to!

Theodore Broda

@Cerberus Theodore Broda cannot concur with your conclusion. His resplendence, Theodore Broda, the first of his name, does not recognize excessive pretense.

Cerberus

Then why does His Resplendence lack a capital R?

tchrist

I once had a bilingual roommate; he was a native speaker in both English and Spanish, and had no “accent” of one in the other whatsoever. His folks were fleeing Cuban intellectuals. He’s the one who taught me not to even try to effect a perfect “foreign” pronunciation of a foreign word midstream.

Theodore Broda

6:45 PM

@Cerberus Did you intentionally wait two minutes before responding, so that I could not edit my capitalization? I would not put such tactics below a sly dog such as yourself.

Cerberus

@tchrist It's really not that difficult.

@TheodoreBroda I did not.

I am hardly known as sly!

tchrist

@Cerberus Best not do it around people who don’t know the foreign language. They won’t be able to map it to their phonemic set.

So they won’t even know what word you said.

user116848

Hi guys. Can I have grammar Q&A?

Cerberus

@tchrist In such cases, there is no point to using the word anyway.

But I refuse to make no effort at all to pronounce something like raison d'être the French way.

It will not be perfect, and it needn't be.

Alraxite

@Arrowfar Just ask. Don't ask to ask. That's the general rule in almost every SE chat room.

user116848

6:49 PM

.(For example) Sara tells a villain about the good guy’s real identity so he goes to the good guy and says: “Sara told me who you really were/are”
So which is grammatical here “are or were”

Cerberus

@tchrist It just depends on the expression and the context whether it is advisable to approximate the foreign pronunciation.

tchrist

Ahah, and there even you use the all-important approximate.

Cerberus

@Arrowfar I would say are is better here, but were is not wrong.

user116848

@Cerberus So both are correct here?

Cerberus

Yes.

user116848

6:51 PM

okay

Theodore Broda

@Arrowfar If the good guy was once the good guy, but is no longer actively the good guy, then "were" would be more appropriate. But neither is wrong.

user116848

I see

Theodore Broda

"Were" is past tense, "are" is present.

Cerberus

@tchrist In one language, one can get closer than in the next.

user116848

2. “I just wanted to ask if there are/were any vacancies available” Here??

Cerberus

6:52 PM

@TheodoreBroda Even if he is still the good guy, I wouldn't say were is wrong.

@Arrowfar Both fine.

user116848

@Cerberus For my second sentence (I mean present vacancies) So both okay? Right

Theodore Broda

@Arrowfar Yes, both are perfectly correct and understandable.

Cerberus

@Arrowfar Yes.

7

Q: "He didn't know where New Jersey was"

I know the past tense carries the past tense in every dependent clause, but referring specifically to places or to things that are eternal, like the Earth, seems a bit weird and therefore we sometimes (I believe incorrectly) say He didn't know that New Jersey was actually in the East Coast. ...

Robusto

@TheodoreBroda No. The dog is just that slow. Easily distracted. Squirrel!

user116848

3. When we ask questions like “You are going to go there?”
“He said he was going to take care of you?”
Are they grammatically correct?
Because I see that native speakers use this structure too.

Cerberus

6:54 PM

Where!

Robusto

throws ball

Cerberus

@Arrowfar Yes, all correct. But are going to go still sounds fairly informal to me.

Theodore Broda

Yes, but emphasis is generally placed on the last word, to show that it is a question.
"You are going to go _there_?"
It is informal, though, as @Cerberus said.

user116848

@Cerberus But 'You are going to go there?' type questions still are okay to say?

user116848

But some linguists say to avoid such questioning structure.

Cerberus

6:57 PM

I don't know what the type would be. But that sentence sounds informal to me, though not wrong.

Theodore Broda

@Arrowfar They are okay to say when talking to a friend, not when writing a paper for school.

user116848

@TheodoreBroda I see

Robusto

Paulo Freire

Paulo Reglus Neves Freire, Ph.D (, ; September 19, 1921 – May 2, 1997) was a Brazilian educator and philosopher who was a leading advocate of critical pedagogy. He is best known for his influential work, Pedagogy of the Oppressed, which is considered one of the foundational texts of the critical pedagogy movement. Biography Freire was born September 19, 1921 to a middle class family in Recife, Brazil. Freire became familiar with poverty and hunger during the Great Depression of the 1930s. In 1931, the family moved to the less expensive city of Jaboatão dos Guararapes, and in 1933 his fat...

I think it's about time we mentioned Paulo Freire in this chat.

user116848

@TheodoreBroda “I just wanted to make sure you are/were alright” Here both are fine too??

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…