English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

KitFox

15:00

I've read The Male Brain. I have studied neuroscience.

@Jez Um. I dunno. I have competed against women (and with women, on my team), at various points in my academic and professional career. and never once did I feel like this was about dick-waving.

@Jez "arguably", assuming your premise is true, that there are hard-wired differences that matter in "male brains".

Most studies do not find that to be the case.

KitFox

There are genetic factors, but socialization teaches us how to appropriately channel our urges and tendencies.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

They might show slight differences across whole populations, but the average difference is small and it's impossible to know how much that effect is due to socialization.

Jez

heh, apparently Jane Fonda loved The Male Brain. that alone makes me suspicious

KitFox

Saying that men should be allowed to rape women because they have a genetic drive for sex that they can't control, for instance, is a stupid argument.

Jez

15:02

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 of course it's not about dick waving when you're competing against women

they dont have a dick

medica

@KitFox - in the help center, under answers, it's not readily apparent (to me) wfere we ask people to share their work and provide context (where I did see it on Meta, I believe). Any idea where I can find this (or more importantly, new users?)

Jez

@KitFox and not one that anyone has made.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez Your point was that competition is intrinsically about manliness. And that competing with women somehow undermines that. I reject that completely. Competition is about individual fitness.

@Jez What? of course they've made that argument.

Jez

not here

in this discussion

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Example: in India, rape is a problem.

KitFox

15:03

So the fact that boys are wired to gain comfort from physical contact and using their muscles, and that they are more likely to learn by moving their bodies, is not a good rationale for how men should be allowed to wrestle each other in the office.

For instance.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Solution? ban sexy female mannequins from store displays.

In Muslim countries, rape is a problem.

KitFox

@medica Not off the top of my head.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Solution? hide the women, so that men don't have to worry about their uncontrollable lusts being triggered.

KitFox

But OK, I'll listen to the video. Let me find it.

Jez

@KitFox what about women dressing sexily? that's basically the first step in sexual relations; women put an "ad" out to everyone who sees them based on how sexily they dress. i could argue that that's as "unacceptable" as guys trying to chat up women at work, yet it's seen as fine while the latter isn't

Cerberus

15:05

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah, cover them up good.

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 also, the mobile app that maps areas of sexual harrassment

KitFox

@Jez I am expected to dress appropriately at work.

Cerberus

@Jez No, looking attractive is something passive that you can easily get away from. Chatting people up is active.

KitFox

Which means no cleavage and no ass hanging out.

Jez

ass "hanging out"?

Cerberus

15:06

No ass hanging out...

Jez

what?

KitFox

Well. Tasteful cleavage.

Cerberus

Yeas, what?

KitFox

Hot pants or short skirts.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez In Western countries, rape victims are often asked "what were you wearing?", and women are advised to not "dress like sluts".

There is a pervasive belief that men cannot control their urges.

KitFox

15:07

No exposed midriff.

In other words, dressing "sexily" is discouraged.

For the same reason chatting up co-workers is discouraged.

Cerberus

Advising someone as such is not the same as blaming her. But "slut" is not only vulgar, but extremely unobjective.

KitFox

@Jez By them or you?

Jez

@KitFox me

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez what? whose masturbation?

Cerberus

Don't tell them!

Jez

15:08

i'm not sure i wouldn't go in the other direction. why is it so bad for work colleagues to date again?

Matt Эллен

two reasons

KitFox

You don't shit where you eat.

Matt Эллен

breakups in the same office

Jez

you can get over breakups professionally

KitFox

And my workplace expectation is the same as it has been in all the places I've worked.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:09

@Jez You can't, always

Jez

@KitFox i guess it's different in your neck of the woods

Cerberus

And conflicts of interest?

Matt Эллен

also, if you're dating your boss there can be allegations of your boss coercing you into sex (or be fired) or you can coerce your boss with sex

KitFox

@Jez Maybe you find Redbook sexy.

Matt Эллен

@Jez some people can. not all people can

KitFox

15:10

Not to mention that some people don't want to be hit on at work and it makes them uncomfortable.

Matt Эллен

you asked why it's frowned upon, not why you shouldn't do it

KitFox

So finding out if someone is interested in you can make them feel weird and creeped out and get you fired.

Matt Эллен

true

Jez

@KitFox various things at work make me uncomfortable and i have to deal with them. but when feminists flip out over it, everyone has to bend over backwards to accommodate them

maybe some women want to be hit on at work

KitFox

And for some of us, it gets really fucking old having guys hit on us when we're trying to work. It's hard enough being taken seriously as a professional in the field without having some jack-off treat us like all that is important is our ability to form intimate relationships. Or not.

Cerberus

15:12

@Jez I agree that some of the stuff from across the pond is exaggerated, but I think in general it is best for everyone not to flirt with colleagues.

KitFox

@Jez Like what?

Jez

@Cerberus good luck trying to defeat human nature though

@KitFox like noise

Cerberus

It's usually possible.

Jez

or Islam

KitFox

You're Muslim?

Cerberus

15:13

Islam can be fairly silent.

Maybe not ISIS.

Jez

no, but people sometimes leave meetings or whatever to go and pray

KitFox

Prey on what?

Oh. Poor thing you.

Jez

yeah.

and poor thing you for guys finding you attractive

cry me a river.

KitFox

So you aren't allowed to have a ham sandwich at work?

Jez

why should i care about your issues when you dont care about mine?

KitFox

15:14

It's because you don't care, @Jez. The whole world is an inconvenience for you.

Jez

anyway, the vid was

►

KitFox

I got it.

Matt Эллен

because we find it difficult to understand how you have issues with other people being islamic. It's easy to understand how Kit has difficulties with being judged as "just eye candy"

Jez

@KitFox whole world my ass. i find quite a few things i like

KitFox

I used to try to not be attractive, but it's hard when my features are so symmetrical.

I get blamed for it even when I don't wash and I cut myself and stuff.

Matt Эллен

15:16

I agree and sympathise with your problems with noise.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez I work in one of the most multicultural cities in the world and I have never once seen a muslim leave a meeting to go pray.

Jez

@MattЭллен it's not just their being Islamic, it's their demanding special privileges for their religion

Matt Эллен

@KitFox you're just trying to be coy, I know you want me. Wash yourself and you can prove it

Jez

there was that case of the BA woman who got to ignore uniform rules so she could wear her big Christian cross and "express her religion"

what a load of BS that was

Robusto

Whoa, we're having a religion-and-gender-issues discussion day? I'm out of here.

KitFox

15:17

@MattЭллен You're supposed to call me a fucking bitch for not wanting to have sex with you, no matter how much I torture myself to make it so that you aren't attracted to me.

Matt Эллен

@Jez but is that really negatively impacting on you?

Jez

so, if you wanna ignore any uniform rules guys, just draw a cross on it and they can't stop you "expressing your religion"

KitFox

@Jez OK, then do that.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox sorry, sorry, I'll ty harder next time. I'm not manly enough.

Jez

if i were an employer it would be a major problem

someone keeps flagging one of my posts

Matt Эллен

15:18

@Jez but you're not

Jez

isnt there some rule about "flag abuse"?

Matt Эллен

you don't have to think about any of these things

KitFox

And you get to enjoy the same privilege.

It's not like they let them do it, but not you.

Cerberus

@Robusto The fun was just starting!

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Robusto apparently.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:20

@Jez You could wear a colander on your head, like that mayor in some southern US town, who was sworn in to office as a Pastafarian.

tombull89

not any more, the flag's been validated and ~~he's out for the count~~ I mean, suspended for 30 minutes.

Matt Эллен

wtf? why?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tombull89 uh, seriously?

tombull89

chat.stackexchange.com/users/8112/jez

This user has been automatically suspended for posting inappropriate content and cannot chat for 28 minutes.

Matt Эллен

but it was appropriate!

bah

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:21

ridiculous

All he did was deny the existence of Allah.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Missed it.

Cerberus

@tombull89 Did you do that?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

For the record, millions of people likewise deny his existence.

tombull89

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 heretic! you'll be stoned to death.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

including me. Allah does not exist! He's imaginary!

tombull89

15:22

@Cerberus no, the flag timed out by the time I went to vote on it

KitFox

We should probably take a break from the discussion in any case.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I voted "Invalid"

Cerberus

@tombull89 Oh, OK.

Kit, can you undo Jez's suspension?

Matt Эллен

@KitFox yeah, not a bad plan

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The religion thing is a red-herring anyway. So what if religious accomodation goes too far or not far enough? So what if there are religious people who are pricks about their religion? That is irrelevant to the topic of whether or not women are bitches.

tombull89

15:23

Quit flagging stuff.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

jeez, now the masturbation thing got flagged.

Whoever's flagging: please lay off.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Cerberus

Some idiot is flagging Jez's lines.

I saw it, but I was too late to click.

The flagging system really sucks!! And it's not just that you get lots of notifications that you cannot do anything with except stare at a bar that appears without going away by itself.

tombull89

He's been suspended, you can't suspend him again.

KitFox

Must be going fast, because I haven't seen them.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:25

Couldn't the suspension be increased?

tombull89

@KitFox Considering they get sent to all in-chat users with 10k+ rep...not surprising.

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Indeed it does.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

what, now that's starred?

this chat is insane

Mitch

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 thank you! the only way to diffuse sexy religion talk.

Matt Эллен

rubs self in holy water mmm. so sexy

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

15:26

KitFox

Aww.

Moar pls.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think we have some kind of immature person in the room...

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Better!

Matt Эллен

"I have all your cats. Ha ha!"

Mitch

Yuck. Do you know what's in that water? They let it sit out for ever.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Cerberus ;)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:27

@Cerberus did you see the article on ars regarding the history of Android? they compared all the old versions up until the present one

Cerberus

I want!

Matt Эллен

@Mitch holiness?

Mitch

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 The next picture is him eating them.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Hmm how long ago? I haven't visited the site recently.

Mitch

@MattЭллен Whah? Hunh? I heard someone address me.

Cerberus

15:28

I have read other articles about the history of Android, on other websites, I think.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/06/…

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

tombull89

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 They did a hell of a job with that.

Matt Эллен

@Mitch are you in the water that you've left out for ever?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Ah, that one is new to me. Is it interesting?

Mitch

15:28

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 What's funny is that she borrowed those shoes from her sister and she's really mad because they look better on her.

tombull89

@Cerberus It's a bloody good read. A bit long, but good.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tombull89 yeah it was neat. I'd been with Android since 2.3, and I've worked on android 2.2 apps, but I'd never seen anything older. Boy it's come a long way.

Mitch

@MattЭллен Yeah, and it's hot.

Cerberus

@tombull89 Hmm anything interesting in particular?

Matt Эллен

@Mitch sexy hot, spicy hot or too many celcius hot?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:29

@Cerberus It's mostly about how the UI has changed and how the standard phone has changed. I didn't realize that it wasn't until Android 2.0 that they had keyboardless android phones.

Cerberus

I jumped onto the Android at 4.0.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Yeah you missed the crazy days

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 How long ago was that? 2007?

Matt Эллен

my N7 (2012) has arrived

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

like when there was no pinch-to-zoom

Cerberus

15:30

@MattЭллен Congrats!! Second hand?

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I'm sorry but you're not making that relevant. Can you add some sex or religion please? Like "I've worked on Android 2.2 apps, but my priest says don't because bitches won't respect you"

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus refurbished, so I guess so :D

or maybe that just means stolen

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I didn't have pinch to zoom until two years ago...Windows Mobile.

Matt Эллен

which is sort of second hand

Cerberus

@MattЭллен OK cool.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:31

@Mitch As an Alpha Male, I'm entitled to all the sexy Android I want

Cerberus

@MattЭллен I don't know, did the seller seem reputable?

Mitch

@MattЭллен I only have one celciu. That's why bitches no respect me.

Cerberus

Haha.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 sexy androids do sound sexy

Cerberus

There is a plural on -us in Latin, in fact.

Matt Эллен

15:31

@Cerberus they were transatlantic

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен ... so... no?

Cerberus

So at least it wasn't stolen here?

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 so, I couldn't tell by their address :D

Cerberus

I don't know, I'm prepared to trust that big sellers on Ebay are trustworthy.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus yeah. I don't steal from my own

Cerberus

15:32

Uhuh.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus yeah. they had hundreds of starts and something like 95% good feedback

Cerberus

Right, then it's probably not stolen. Right??

How much did you pay in the end?

Matt Эллен

yeah

Cerberus

70 pounds?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus I'm not sure. I'll say £90

including shipping

Cerberus

15:34

Hmm OK.

Matt Эллен

and tax

Cerberus

I think the ones I once showed you were a bit cheaper, weren't they?

Matt Эллен

I think it was about the same

Cerberus

Oh OK.

Mitch

@Cerberus No Latin, no pride.

See how I brought this all back to sexy talk?

Cerberus

15:40

Yay!

Latin is sexy.

Matt Эллен

I'm still waiting for Latin.se to get into beta

I don't think it's finished commitment

bbl

Cerberus

Is it still up? Or again?

tchrist

@Cerberus potus, passus, actus, fetus, genus, domus, portus, porticus, anus, tribus, spiritus, manus, echus in nom pl. Maybe even several Jesus. :)

Cerberus

Echus?

There are many, many more, btw...

I have never heard of echus: it sounds Greek?

AJ Henderson

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 you know full well that isn't all they did. I am not the one who validated the flag and I'm not Muslim, but there is a big difference between mocking someone's deity and saying that you don't believe they exist.

tchrist

15:53

@Cerberus Bingo. sg is echo, 4decl.

Cerberus

@AJHenderson They, the flaggers?

tchrist

@Cerberus Yes, I know. I think all 4th not 5th or 2nd.

Cerberus

@tchrist Ah, I see. Never seen that plural!

@tchrist Yes all 4th.

Mitch

2

Q: Do something about puerile chat flagging

Recently I got suspended from the chat because 2 of my posts were flagged and the flag "accepted"; one referenced Islam as people believing in a "magic sky man" or something, the other mentioned masturbation in a way that only the most puritanical person could find offensive: http://chat.stac...

Cerberus

@AJHenderson Mocking someone's deity or basically mocking anything should be OK, as long as it isn't directed at someone personally, and as long as it isn't impolite to a participant of the conversation, I would say.

AJ Henderson

15:56

@Cerberus so if I'm in a conversation with a bunch of white guys, it's okay to whip out the n word and start making black jokes?

tchrist

@Cerberus I think proper names from the -ω/-υος Greek words landed as 4th declension -o/-us in Latin.

AJ Henderson

after all, it isn't impolite to a participant in the conversation

Mitch

@Cerberus I don't know. People get pretty upset.

tchrist

Maybe common ones, too, but I imagine that the proper nouns were “stickier”.

Mitch

Damn you and your black holes and dark matter and heat death of the universe.

@tchrist All I know is cornus, and that wasn't on your list.

tchrist

15:58

@Mitch That’s “wrong”.

The genitive sg of cornu is indeed cornus, but the nominative plural is cornua.

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