@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 that's not a law that says they're bitches... more like one that says the stop msging you after a while

Men don't have that same problem.

by the way. she actually replied for a while after i sent that message, and then decided to follow that law.

so i'm thinking that law is pretty damn accurate

You know, it's probably not that women are bitches.

I know that's hard for you to consider.

hard to consider? it's been my default assumption until recently

my assumption has been that i'm inadequate.

that has caused me lots of emotional grief

i'm pretty glad i dont have to self-harm now

That's great. A big step forward.

Still doesn't mean that women are bitches.

@KitFox do you mean men won't speak to someone they dont want to have sex with?

There's no reason to assign a value judgement at all.

not all women are bitches, but some certainly are

That's why I don't speak to Jez

:-D

;)

@Jez Well, in my experience, many men stop talking as soon as they feel they are "wasting their time" because they aren't going to "get laid".

Then they call you a bitch.

@KitFox well that aint me. generally, women stop talking to me

Not all men are like that.

@Jez On OKCupid, right?

mostly, yes

After they've decided either you aren't going to ask for a date, or they aren't interested in dating you.

yeah

So...

so getting laid is impossible. :-P

It's a dating site.

I was having the same problem in Tinder. So I stopped using Tinder. I'm clearly not meeting the right sort of people one there.

the funny thing is, those guys you described probably get laid more than guys who do what women say they want from a guy.

women seem to actually want combative, somewhat aggressive men

I don't know why men think that.

they then hypocritically condemn (and sometimes pass laws against) them

@KitFox well, we see women tending to date those guys

if i try and be all caring and interested in a girl on OKC, they generally lose interest

yet im doing what they claim they want

Almost every man I know who has ever made the argument "Women only want assholes" has in fact himself been a pouty asshole who didn't get laid often.

I need to find a dating site for geeks, so I can be geeky and not put people off.

@KitFox didnt get laid often because he wasnt aggressive enough

No, quite the opposite.

Semi-stalker, demanding, pushy-for-sex-and-intimacy kind of behavior.

@KitFox well, are you attracted to guys with confidence and and assertiveness, and (if you're honest) some degree of sexual aggressiveness?

Yes.

But it means something different to me than you.

?

im not sure it does.

"Come on, baby, give it up" is not a turn on.

Here, I'll give you a real life example.

I was set up on a blind date with a friend of a friend.

Let's call him...Bob.

Bob takes me out to dinner, then we go for drinks. For three hours, he tells me what a great guy he is, and how loyal he is, then he starts in on how the last girl he dated didn't get that, and she's with some other guy and he was going to raise her baby with her but she only liked assholes and didn't know what was good for her.

They dated for six months three years prior to the date I was on with him.

Six months.

Jesus. And he had know idea why I would find that creepy weird.

so women DON'T like commitment?

Anyway, he drops me off, I don't make any future plan with him, but he asks if I'm going to the friend's party.

I said I probably would with my other friend, but when the night of the party rolled around, I had a migraine so I stayed home.

@KitFox frankly im struggling to understand why you found it creepy weird

He stopped by my house at midnight. I didn't answer the door.

maybe a bit pitiful but that's it

He called me the next day and started bitching me out about how I had lied to him and how much money he had spent on looking good for me at the party, and where was I anyway? And then when I spelled it out for him that I wasn't interested in dating him, he busted out in tears and begged me to give him a chance.

Then finally he called me a fucking bitch and hung up on me.

@KitFox do you think i'm like that guy?

Then his friend told me that Bob was still talking about me, and couldn't I just be nice and have sex with him just once, because really that's what he needed to chill out.

@KitFox jesus, really?

Yes, really.

fuck

oh my god! let's demionize him as much as possible. come on i'll start: i bet he was a rapist

look at it from his perspective; he's sexually frustrated

I don't think you can see the point from over there, Jez

yet he isn't raping you

And yes, @Jez, it is creepy fucking weird to be that emotionally attached to a woman you dated for six months three years ago.

It is nothing about him being a rapist or not.

lots of other guys get to have sex with nice women

@Jez Frustrated, fine. But his frustration is not Kit's problem.

@Jez lol, "get to"

Jez, the initial point is that he talked about himself for three hours on their first date.

yeah, get to

it's a privilege

unless you're a rapist

It is about his emotional desperation.

@KitFox yeah, well i feel more sorry for him than anything. women these days seem to like to demonize people like that; kick them when they're down

I spent two hours on the phone, as politely as I could, breaking up with a guy I wasn't even dating.

-_-

@Jez Right. Yes. I am a fucking bitch for establishing and maintaining boundaries.

@KitFox i didnt mention boundaries

TIL

i mentioned demonizing

Right.

Because you can't see it from my point of view.

@KitFox i struggle to, i admit

@RegDwigнt wow. many news to me

That guy needed some serious help, but he wouldn't get it. He wouldn't understand that his expectations were fucked up.

So I am walking in on a therapy session again.

Yes.

yeah, but whose therapy session? :-)

I think it mentioned one Son of God.

@KitFox anyway your understanding of some men's positions seems to be just as bad. you don't seem to accept that you're in a position of sexual power, mocking and insulting those in the weaker position who haven't been lucky.

"Sons of God" should be some sort of criminal biker gang

rubbing salt into the wound.

@Jez "c'mon just fuck me, this one time" is not really comparable to "no"

@MattЭллен well she gave a bit of an extreme example there.

@Jez lol. Her "position of sexual power" is not a real thing. The fact that she has functioning body parts that could give gratification to that guy is not really his concern.

She has absolutely zero obligation to have sex with him.

did i say she did?

Well, you are implying such

are we speaking the same language?

no i am not

So if she has no obligation to have sex with him, what is her "position of sexual power" and how is it relevant?

it's her ability to withhold sex

that's the power

newsflash: most people are withholding sex from most other people most of the time.

I withhold sex from practically every person I meet.

I'm withholding it from you right now!

Does that make me a bitch?

I'm witholding sex from @Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 right now

@MattЭллен bitch!

Didn't feel like a power as much as a weakness.

Some crazy asshole decides that he's entitled.

watch more Karen Straughan vids

@MattЭллен Clearly you only want to date assholes

she says it better than i can

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 they make the best dates

@KitFox there you go again

I was nice to him. I was polite. I clearly said I was not interested.

It's not my fault that he finds me attractive.

@Jez The point is that your position, that "Kit is withholding sex" implies that there is sex to be had, and she's choosing to toy with this guy or otherwise deny him. It doesn't work that way.

And it doesn't obligate me to have sex with him.

I treated him decently.

It's a two-way street.

like the anus

...

What hell...

oh.. um...

I didn't string him along. I didn't get him to buy me things or do my work.

I mean

@KitFox you're not treating him decently now by talking shit about him

I'm not talking shit. I'm stating facts.

What in the world are you lot talking about now?

He's the one who came to my house in the middle of the night.

He's the one who accused me of cheating on him, even though we had no relationship.

@KitFox anyway i don't think this tale is particularly relevant as it is an extreme example

Ooh, you've got a stalker?

Nah.

most frustrated guys aren't going to your house in the middle of the night

Not anymore.

@Jez I stopped letting guys pick me up at my place because of that.

ok, most frustrated guys wouldn't

@KitFox Hilarious.

Probably not, but the attitude is the same.

@KitFox what attitude?

If I thought mercy sex worked, I might actually do it.

But I don't think it does.

"I am putting in effort therefore you should find me attractive"

I'm a fucking bitch because I am not fulfilling your needs.

@Cerberus it's not like a mercy killing

@KitFox i don't think that's typical.

You can think whatever you want.

@Jez are you kidding? it's so common that recently some douchebag actually went postal for that very reason

@Jez that's on you. That's your hang up.

And people actually said "well, I feel bad for the guy"

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 it's so common that that guy was considered an extreme mental case, not a "normal guy"

@MattЭллен If only it could be...

@Jez Actually, there is no evidence that he's a "mental case"

lol

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 gawd, no wonder she likes you

And if it was so abnormal, why didn't someone notice sooner?

@Jez So which guy is this exactly? Not the crazy one from Kit's story?

@Jez she likes me 'cause I'm sexy.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 With your braid.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 That's true. Also, other things.

@Cerberus no, the guy in california who shot up the "bitches" and "sluts" who weren't having sex with him.

If you encounter assholes all day long, you're the asshole.

Huh?\

Another school shooting?

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 wow. that's a deepity.

It would seem rather unreasonable to consider death a just punishment for not finding you attractive...

@Cerberus Elliot Rodger

@Cerberus Doesn't it though?

@KitFox because his intentions were well masked

I guess the shooting puts the old expression in a different perspective, "all women alive want me".

Or how does it go?

you're really trying to say that this guy is representative of many guys?

@Jez His intentions were masked? actually he'd been posting his misogynistic rants on youtube for years.

@Cerberus lol

No. Most guys don't shoot people.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Hmm I don't remember shooters' names; they deserve oblivion.

@Jez No. I'm saying that his attitudes are so common that his behaviour barely seemed out of place, until he opened fire.

@KitFox so your earlier implication that it was normal was wrong

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 nonsense. by all accounts, he masked his attitudes

@Jez His attitude was not unusual. I didn't say it was normal.

non unusual = usual

@Jez You must have read different accounts than I did. His parents even called the police once, years ago, because one of his rants was too violent for them.

usual ~= normal

Isn't the solution to have gun owners go through a mental check-up every year?

You can argue semantics, but that's all just so you can rationalize your own behavior.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 and the police left because he had been polite and not disturbing

@Cerberus They do, except their name is usually a good identifier for googling them and learning the history.

@Jez yeah, i.e. not mentally unstable.

Right.

He wasn't a "nutcase". He was an entitled prick.

Merely an extreme case of a pervasive bad attitude.

With a gun.

Domestic violence.

@KitFox im sorry, but you're talking crap. you're saying "it's not unusual" then when someone calls you on the FACT that that means "normal" you're ducking it

I consider such behaviour mentally sick.

I'm sure psychologists would have noticed something, also considering his past.

@Jez Shooting people who disagree with you = abnormal. Being a prick = not unusual, but I don't find it acceptable.

!!define litotes

why dont you just say "normal"

@MattЭллен litotes (rhetoric) A figure of speech in which the speaker emphasizes the magnitude of a statement by denying its opposite; a figure of speech in which understatement is used with negation to express a positive attribute; a form of irony

"not unusual" is an unnecessary double negative

@Jez Normal implies a majority.

"common" then

OK.

Common.

@Jez There's a difference between "normal" and "not unusual". Traffic jams are not unusual, but they are not necessarily normal.

They are in Peking.

I'm not unusual...

so "it's common for guys to be pricks" - just wanted to get your opinion in plain text

you seem about as bitter at men as i am at women, frankly

Yes.

Haha.

maybe moreso

Nah. Just the pricks.

I don't know, in my experience most people of either genre are fairly decent.

there's more than one genre!

I like and feel empathy toward many men. I have more friends who are men than friends who are women, which is probably due to the horrible relationship I had with my mother growing up.

@MattЭллен I don't have any experience with the non-main genres.

"genre" is French

Indeed.

@Cerberus it's true, the mainstream is quite overwhelming.

That could be why I feel more deeply betrayed by men being dicks than women.

I actually typoed gender, but then decided genre was fun.

I'll have to think on that.

@MattЭллен Yup, they are.

@Cerberus I thought that was the case :D

Do you have any friends who don't fit in the main genres?

I do!

Yes

I don't...I know of maybe one person.

I think Conchita is just a man.

:D

Isn't he?

more than just a man!

He just likes to dress up.

@KitFox i think i was brought up to believe that basically, every man gets a women. ultra-simple. so yeah it feels unjust when some men don't even though they're not society's obvious booeymen like rapists or murderers. yet those men just get shit on even more by society because, having realized their situation and gotten angry about it, they're "whiners", "losers", "pathetic", "creeps", "entitled", etc.

Yeah.

part of the problem is perhaps society's constant portrayal as "normal" being "being in a couple"

Part of the problem is the "gets".

@Jez That's horrible. You should ignore it.

That's not how relationships work.

society is almost saying "of course if you want to be in a couple, you can just go out and get that easily". except many can't.

Maybe you should read The Little Prince.

Then why are there like 1000 programmes on about dating every hours of the day?

but good luck trying to smash the 2.4 children thing

Perhaps you need to accept that life can be fun without a girl.

Stop pondering and grieving.

You're torturing yourself.

@Cerberus well getting back to the very original point, i posted a vid of Karen Straughan making some interesting points

one of them is that women increasingly going into traditionally men's professions may cause men to leave them

That would seem odd.

lolwhut?

feminism doesn't really seem to pay attention to the social dynamics

does she link to statistics?

to what the actual differences between men and women are

@Jez What would be an example of that?

teaching

?

lolwhut?

That happened long ago.

teaching has traditionally been women's work since the start of organized schools

anyway i cant remember it all, watch the video :-)

Next you'll say "nursing".

nurs.... damnit

and in post-secondary education it's still an old white guy's club

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 High school was dominated by men until...I don't know, the early 20th century?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 We're making progress.

@KitFox it's agonizingly slow progress

I think it may take two more generations

Meh.

I'm not unhappy with it.

Mostly I hate being the token woman.

so you totally ignore her arguments then

than men kind of need hierarchies in which they can compete with other men

and that's because of hardwiring in the brain

Hahahaha. What?

@Jez I don't think that's the case, no. Why can't they just compete with women?

apparently you do

well you should think again

It's true boys need competition, but there are ways of doing that constructively.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 because if you beat a women, it's not the same. at a base level, men are competing for women

not against women

@Jez You should be suspicious of any gender-based argument that boils down to "hard-wiring in the brain"

If they are straight.

indeed

And haven't been taught otherwise.

well you arguably cant teach this