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00:00 - 12:0012:00 - 00:00

00:04
@Robusto Who are "they" and "him"?
Chantraine mentions a few well known scholars.
I am not familiar myself with Kitto.
Hello @Mitch!
@Cerberus "him" is Kitto. I thought Chantraine was a group. Is that a person?
@Cerberus Dude!
@Cerberus: You really ought to read Kitto's Form and Meaning in Drama sometime. It's excellent.
Actually, we talked about Kitto three years ago already. I thought you remembered everything!
Feet of clay, doggy.
Mar 12 '11 at 1:16, by Cerberus
That Kitto guy sounds cool.
00:46
This gives a whole new connotation to something not being worth a dried fig.
I wonder: does Dutch have sycophants? What about German?
@Robusto Why a group? Chantraine is a person.
@Cerberus My bad.
Pierre Chantraine (15 September 1899 – 30 June 1974) was a French linguist. He was born in Lille and died in Paris. A student of, among others, Antoine Meillet, Joseph Vendryes and Paul Mazon, Chantraine became one of the most renowned authorities on Ancient Greek philology of his generation. After teaching at the University of Lyon between 1925 and 1928, he became Directeur d'études de philologie grecque ("Director of Greek Philology Studies") at the École pratique des hautes études in Paris, and also taught at the Sorbonne from 1938, continuing in both functions until his retirement ...
He's cool.
@Mitch Bloke!
@Robusto I did remember the name!
@tchrist What about it?
No, Dutch does not have it, to the best of my knowledge.
@Cerberus Is that what it means?
Nor German, I believe.
> (From σῦκον φαίνειν, orig. used of denouncers of the attempted export of figs from Athens, acc. to Ister 35, Plu. Sol.24, 2.523b;
orig. of citizens entrusted with the collection of figs as part of the public revenues of Athens and the denouncing of tax-evaders, acc. to Philomnest.1;
of denouncers of figs which had been stolen from the sacred fig-trees during a famine and had become cheap, the famine having passed, Sch.Ar.Pl.31, cf. Fest. p.393 L.;
these and modern explanations are mere guesses;
01:14
Interesting.
— Liddell
The OED doesn’t believe the tax-evader thing.
@Cerberus You can read Form and Meaning in Drama online for free.
Liddell says that are all guesses...
01:16
@Robusto OK that's cool!
Yes, I adjudged calumniator too fancy.
— Chantraine
Thanks for the French.
So it is just not certain.
— Hofmann
So Hofmann seems to suggest it is from the gesture, if you can read the Greek.
How much of that can you understand?
                              Never alone
Did the King sigh, but with a general groan.
01:31
What are you trying to tell me??
Just a line from Hamlet.
But why that particular line, and why now?
Are you the King?
No. I was just reading Kitto's chapter about Hamlet.
01:54
Ah, I see.
There is no denying the truth of that...
Today 200 years ago, the King abolished slave trade.
But slavery was still allowed for a few more decades.
I believe America has more slaves than England, but I might be wrong.
The Dutch King, silly.
02:20
I bet Holland has fewer slaves than either of us.
02:35
Are those Amsterdam ladies all willing participants?
@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Some are, some aren't.
That’s about male prostitution in the Netherlands, and hm, seems unusual.
"One of the most important tourist attractions", really?
Important like Disneyland, no doubt.
“Paydates”
Hmm I attended a wedding in the Barndesteeg two weeks ago.
At some point, all of us wedding guests were waiting for the bride and groom in the street, opposite a red-lit window...
It was kind of funny.
Ok, section 3 is “Forced male prostitution in the Netherlands”, so it is indeed also a problem.
We used to have male window prostitutes.
What a long article!
Quite.
> These statistics could be explained by the fact that unsafe sex is generally more accepted in the gay community, with some male prostitutes willing to have unsafe sex during a paydate for an extra fee.
Since when is there a "gay community", and why does the author assume that gays use fewer condoms?
02:46
Didn't the interviewee say as much, and because they get paid more?
> Within the gay community itself, paying for sex, or being paid for sex, is not at all a big deal.
There she goes again.
They’re using “gay community” to mean “men who have sex with men”, nothing more.
Then why not just say "gays"?
Well, gays is a pretty ugly noun, for one thing.
It's a stupid, novel trend to call any kind of people a "community".
02:47
She could have said gay men.
Then say "gay men".
Yeah.
Beecha
The ex-pat community. The Roma community. The Sikh community. The émigré community. The ELU community. The European Community. The Taos communes.
Some of those are communities; others, less so.
In either case, the word usually adds very little.
What makes something a community to you?
I agree it is a trendy word.
Social structures, maybe?
And a sense of belonging shared by nearly all, or at the very least most, members.
02:51
There are Jewish Community Centers.
There can be Jewish communities.
But to suggest that all or most Jews in a Western city form a community is dubious.
"The Jewish community" suggests "(almost) all Jews" in a certain place.
People who use the word never mean "by the Jewish community, I mean the organised Jews of Amsterdam, as opposed to the ones who do not participate in any Jewish activities or social structures".
No, they simply mean "all/most Jews in Amsterdam".
The liberal arts community. The newlywed community. The birder community. The homeless community. The downtown community.
If, indeed, most Jews in Amsterdam are organised and/or part of a social structure around Judaism, then perhaps it is appropriate.
What on earth would "the liberal-arts community" mean?
Academics who are in the fuzzy subjects.
Then I must condemn it.
02:57
Or who believe in a balanced education. Trivium+Quadrivium stuff.
Haven’t you read The Two Cultures?
The Two Cultures is the title of the first part of an influential 1959 Rede Lecture by British scientist and novelist C. P. Snow. Its thesis was that "the intellectual life of the whole of western society" was split into the titular two cultures — namely the sciences and the humanities — and that this was a major hindrance to solving the world's problems. The lecture The talk was delivered 7 May 1959 in the Senate House, Cambridge, and subsequently published as The Two Cultures and the Scientific Revolution. The lecture and book expanded upon an article by Snow published in the New State...
The liberal arts community would be academics on the humanities side.
The Linux community?
The open-source community?
It sounds a bit...Anglocentric.
If that word is allowed.
We don't normally distinguish between the various kinds of wetenschap on the Continent.
(I know what the liberal arts are, just not what their community would be.)
I should think that most places distinguish the humanities from the sciences.
Not quite.
They are all wetenschappen here.
We commonly distinguish between alpha, bèta, and gamma.
03:02
But on communities, if the gay community doesn’t make a person wince, just confront them with the straight community.
As a concept.
And many things that you would call arts are not wetenschappen here.
@tchrist I think I have actually seen that term used...
That said, I do get the notion that the folks who live in gay ghettos like the Castro District of San Francisco do feel a sense of community.
(Not saying the premise of Two Cultures is wrong, just some criticism on what the box says.)
Well, we do not have ghetti here.
@Cerberus I know. So have I. That’s why I mentioned it. Because gay community becomes dubious when one considers its complement.
Even move dubious, perhaps.
03:05
Most places have ghettos, I think.
If people feel a sense of community, and you don't try to include many people who don't, then the word would be appropriate.
We have bad neighbourhoods, but not quite ghetti.
Oh wait.
I don’t mean ghetto that way.
In any way.
I mean a homogeneous community of likeminded individuals.
No gay or Jewish ghetti either.
Unrelated to location?
03:06
Not urban blight.
@Cerberus It is location-based, yes.
We have close-knit villages?
Some very expensive neighbourhoods?
A black ghetto, a Jewish ghetto, a tech ghetto, a gay ghetto.
We don't really have such things. Maybe a bit of a black ghetto in Amsterdam Zuid-Oost, but it's nothing like real ghetti as in Paris.
I know people who work there, and I have met people who live(d) there.
> 2. transf. and fig. A quarter in a city, esp. a thickly populated slum area, inhabited by a minority group or groups, usu. as a result of economic or social pressures; an area, etc., occupied by an isolated group; an isolated or segregated group, community, or area.
The point is the isolation and homogeneity.
It’s a bubble.
In order for it to transcend the status of "homogeneous neighbourhood", I think there needs to be more to it, more isolation and such.
If white people live and work in Zuid-Oost, is it still a black ghetti?
Ikea is there, and the largest football stadium.
And banks.
03:10
A black ghetto is a place whose residents are all, or nearly all, blacks.
And white people live there, though they are probably a (smallish) minority.
Exchange black for whatever you want above.
Ghetto also implies a certain insularity.
And not in a good way, if you know what I mean.
To be honest, I've never really had anything to do there except for the shops and the train station.
I know.
The word ghetto is interlinguistic.
It’s the opposite of integrated, or something like that.
And it is not a positive term.
It’s a bunch of people who have walled themselves off from anybody unlike them.
It’s strictly an urban term, too, never a rural one.
Even if it were to make sense there.
Yes.
03:14
For example, the Amish communities are rural.
But you can’t call them a ghetto.
80% of the people in Zuid-Oost living in large apartment buildings are non-white.
I'm not sure I'd call that a ghetto. Would you?
I agree, it is conventionally urban.
The Amish, or your Zuid-Oost? I wouldn’t call either that, probably.
But I don’t know.
If outlanders are given a hard time there, then it might be a ghetto.
It's not closed off in any way.
03:16
Only because they aren’t Jewish.
They are not: they choose to live there, partly because many other blacks live there, partly because it's fairly cheap and they have little money.
But there can still be a virtual boundary.
I wouldn't go there by night, at least not deep into the ghetto.
Ah.
Then probably yes.
It would probably be fairly safe.
But still.
03:19
There are certainly places in Denver where one should not venture at night, especially if one is white.
The thing is, I never have any reason to be there.
The major shops and banks and the Arena are on the fringes, you could say.
Sometimes people find themselves where they shouldn’t be by accident, and bad things happen to them.
I’ve seen that.
Does it happen often?
In contrast, there is nowhere in Boulder I would not walk day or night, although I confess to being somewhat nervous of lions in certain places at night.
@Cerberus Not really. But sometimes it is fatal.
The “bad place” in Denver is the Five Points district. My friend’s friend, a father himself, not knowing Denver well as is so often true of Boulderites, managed to get himself lost and turned around, and wound up there at night driving. He stopped at an intersection, looking around, and someone ran out and shot him in the head at point-blank range. He died instantly.
And I know people who have been mugged there, too.
What were they doing there, of course you ask?
Because the city tends to give loud-music/late-night licences only in out-of-the-way warehouse districts.
Like Five Points.
It’s safe enough to drive there and back, but I would not care to walk my way out of there.
Not that I’ve gone in the last decade or so, but still.
Five Points Is one of Denver's oldest historic neighborhoods. It is located on the northeast side of the downtown central business district. It is in the part of Northeast Denver where the downtown street grid meets the neighborhood street grid of the first Denver suburbs. The five points in the district name are the vertexes formed where four streets meet: 26th Avenue, 27th Street, Washington Street, and Welton Street. Five Points was the shortened name for the street car stop located at this intersection. Five Points came to historical prominence from the 1860s through the 1950s. The...
Today I learned that some people call peppers mangoes.
Utterly bizarre.
0
A: why do some people call green peppers mangoes?

tchristI’d never heard of such a crazy thing in my life, but the map below shows why: I’ve never lived in the places where this occurs. The Dictionary of Regional American English (DARE) explains that this way: Any of var fruits or vegetables (as a muskmelon, peach, pepper, or cucumber) filled wi...

@tchrist Wow, that is terrible.
The thing is, people are killed here occasionally in any neighbourhood.
03:30
I was wondering about that.
But it will still be very rare even in ZO.
> 20 people were killed in the centre of the Bijlmer (ZO) in 1995-2004.
That makes it the most murderous neighbourhood of the country.
But I suspect the large majority of those to be people killed by someone they got into a fight with, or by hired killers (drugs): not random visitors getting killed.
What is that, 2 per year?
How many residents?
@Cerberus Yes, exactly. That’s why it was so creepy.
@tchrist 21.955
Not sure about the year, but it probably hasn't changed a lot.
I suspect most of those victims live there.
Boulder is considered a low-crime area. Most years there are no murders, but you never know.
@tchrist Did they ever catch the killer?
03:39
How many people?
@Cerberus No, they never did.
@tchrist Good.
It sounds fairly pleasant.
@tchrist Creepy indeed.
But here’s the thing: guess how many homeless people died of exposure in Boulder last year?
Expose, to the weather?
03:40
Yes.
I don't know, 5?
Thrice that.
That may be lumping together drug ODs.
But most of them are just drunks who froze to death.
That is unfortunate.
It is.
No idea how often that happens here.
>
Nationaliteiten
Westerse allochtonen:
9%
Niet westerse allochtonen:
76%
Uit Turkije:
2%
Uit Marokko:
3%
Uit Suriname:
36%
Uit Antillen / Aruba:
6%
Overig niet westers:
30%
03:44
So one is much more apt to die of homelessness than murder here.
Not sure whether that is good or bad!
What do those figures represent?
People living in Bijlmer-centrum, our best candidate for a ghetto.
@Cerberus It’s because we’re something of a magnet, due to the above-average income levels and well, social consciousness.
I'm sure you know that niet = not. Overig = other/misc.
@tchrist Really? Hmm I don't know what moves homeless people.
03:46
It used to be the trains. Hobos and such.
Now they go to where they can get handouts, and not freeze to death.
If they’re lucky.
@Cerberus So it is a non-European ghetto.
I wonder how @Mahnax's speech went.
Splendidly, I’m sure.
Denver crime versus Boulder crime. Whole nother country.
@tchrist Yes, I don't think European ghetti exist anywhere in Western Europe?
@Cerberus Ironic, isn’t it?
Well, not really...
It's always foreigners who are poor...
03:51
{{Infobox holocaust event |Event_Name = Warsaw Ghetto |Image_Name = Bundesarchiv Bild 101I-134-0791-29A, Polen, Ghetto Warschau, Ghettomauer.jpg |Image_Caption = The Warsaw Ghetto, the ghetto wall, May 24, 1941 Zelaznej Bramy {Iron Gate} Square, ghetto wall and Lubomirski Palace. Photo likely taken from Janasz Bazaar building at Rynkowa 11 street. |AKA = |Location = Warsaw: Muranów, Powązki, Nowolipki, Śródmieście Północne, Mirów(German-occupied Poland) |Date = October 1940 to May 1943 |Incident type = Imprisonment, mass shootings, for...
Maybe there are some Eastern-Europe (semi-)ghetti in Western Europe.
What about it?
We used to have a Jewish ghetto too, before (and during) the War.
I meant because the whole notion of ghettos is a European one.
The OED doesn’t know where the word comes from. Strange.
Ah, well, the word, I would say: not the notion.
Ghetti have always been places where cities kept certain foreign populations. Like in China.
04:32
@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Relatively well!
05:28
@Mahnax Congrats!!!
 
4 hours later…
09:31
@Robusto - I hardly see how the configuration of my knickers, or my use of boldface, has anything to do with either the price of tea in china, or your overreaction to one incident of cleaning up a title to avoid the trigger "sister rape". Non sequitur much?
@medica Will you quit fucking pinging me?
Are you going to have one of your drama sessions with me now?
fucking pinging you?
Who is using fuck?
Looks like both of us.
I was repeating... you know, repeating?
Maybe less than you.
Maybe more.
09:35
maybe not. From what I saw today/yesterday, not.
I wasn't the one threatening to clear outta here if we clean up the word sister rape.
You are free to think what you like.
good. Then perhaps you can think what you think, and keep my knickers out of it.
And your reduction of my statement to that single issue is disingenuous.
Anyway, what do you care what I think? Live your own life. It has nothing to do with mine.
No, it's not. It's not disingenuous at all. I responded exactly to your content.
Well, for the record, you fell right into my trap. All I was trying to do was to test your equanimity, since you're running for mod. Guess what? You failed.
09:38
It does when you say things like "dont get your knickers in a bunch" on this site, to which we both belong.
Fine, don't vote for me.
I thought you were more than that. I was wrong.
We had another one like you in the last election. She alienated a bunch of people, some of whom were valued members of the community, into leaving.
Sorry to have pinged you, (well, more than once). Otherwise, I have nothing to apologize for.
Now where is she?
I have no idea who you're talking about. I wasn't around for the last election.
I'm not asking for your apology. I just want you to leave me alone. I made a statement about myself, and you seemed to get all exercised about it. That's on you.
09:40
As far as alienating people, you've treated me badly before. I'm still here.
@medica See, this is the classic paranoid view of the world. It's all about people being bad to you, never about you being hyper-defensive.
Oh, please.
Good day.
Look, you're the one who felt you had to reboot your persona around here, not me.
What's your new screen name going to be?
Looks like the storming-out tactic didn't take.
Btw, I really did think you were better than you are now. honestly. Not that you care, I guess.
and you told me to leave you alone. You're a person of contradictions.
I absolutely do not care what you think of me. But go ahead. It's fun watching you run down your little list of confrontation tactics.
09:44
I'm not storming out. I'm leaving you alone. As per your request.
Pro tip: The way to leave someone alone is not to tell them you're leaving them alone.
Oh, and please don't misquote me. I said "twist," not bunch.
> I try to be respectful, encouraging and friendly, especially to newer members. I want people to feel welcome here.
I guess you need to try harder.
10:07
Mar 20 at 14:09, by Robusto
I was prepared to think you were just being schoolmarmish. Now I would opt for vituperative, as someone else characterized you earlier.
@medica Just ignore him, just like he ignored me.
 
2 hours later…
11:58
@Robusto I do try to be friendly, especially to new members, because there is an air of unfriendliness here (not meaning chat, but EL&U), which has been brought up many times already. I was responding to your (what is a safe word for it? Dismissive? Unkind?) comment about not getting my knickers in a "twist". I am truly sorry that we have had a conflict before, which seemed to prep you for a fight instead of a discussion.
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