@Jez So are you still talking with the girl you mentioned?

@TheodoreBroda Haha, I like to use the word disillusioned too, but for other things.

@JasperLoy no, she thought i was being too "aggressive" and "smothering" by keping up conversation

having watched that video, I actually think this is what was happening: subliminally, she was thinking i was pathetic, asking her about herself too much

her higher reasoning translated that into "too aggressive" as a way of justifying her rejection of me

ironically, if i had been a little more aggressive (arrogant and demanding), her subconscious wouldn't have thought me so pathetic and I might have gotten somewhere

i swear that video is the most lucid analysis of relationships I've ever seen. virtually everything she says rings true with me

@Jez She's nice.

But she is also a little bit one-sided.

There are men who really only talk about getting girls to have sex with them.

And, even though I believe they don't always mean it like that, i.e. they often want more than just sex, it is still a bit annoying.

@Cerberus one of the points she makes in the video, and I agree with her, is frankly, what's so wrong with that?

you find someone attractive and want sex with them. it's often the unspoken understanding anyway, if you're being "really nice" to someone... yet it's been turned into some kind of shameful thing

well fuck it, I do want to have sex with attractive women. so there.

i may also want a relationship with them but i fail to see why we should be made to feel guilty about reasonable healthy base emotions

It depends.

The problem is that many people do not want only sex, and often behaviour is involved that suggests more.

So then there is some deceptive aspect to it.

If you pretend to be really interested in what a guy says, but you really don't care and only want to have sex with him, that's not very nice.

Additionally, if you only want sex even without pretending to want more, it is still a bit...you're basically saying "you are not interesting".

It happens, and it is perfectly fine.

i recognize a hell of a lot of truth in that video, and she says that we basically have a hormonal response to a woman we find attractive

we can't avoid the primary "I want sex" feeling, so really we're forced to be frustrated/depressed around her, or avoid her

the latter is probably better

But there is a fine line between just wanting sex and being nice while in the process, and pretending to want more.

what is "more"? you can want sex AND a relationship

but a relationship without sex? that's a hard one to imagine

No, the AND part is what I mean.

biologically, it makes no sense, and we're evolved creatures

Not dating without sex, that is not normal.

well you didnt mean to say "pretending to want more"

you meant "wanting more"

@Jez That's called a platonic relationship.

What?

@TheodoreBroda yeah, and it's telling that is almost always happens between family members, not peers

What I meant was, if you only want sex, but you pretend you are also interested in the man or woman for more than sex, such as conversation or friendship or serious dating, that's deceptive.

yet society doesnt let you just say "i want sex"

whatsmore, as i said, you might be interested in "sex and more"

I often am

It is possible.

well pretty much always

Especially between two men...

yeah well i'm hetero

(for my sins)

@Jez Yes, I believe you. So I am not criticising you.

Heterosexuality is obviously a serious sin, but we'll look past it this once.

what i mean is, you're right. being homo would make it a lot easier with relationships

So what I was saying does not apply to you, about the deceptive part.

trying to dance the relationship dance with women is a fucking nightmare

and i havent really succeeded.

Yes, it is somewhat easier with men.

At least the sex part.

I was just trying to explain the feminist point of view a bit more.

why is that, lack of built-in gender roles?

sorry, i missed your explanation of the feminist POV (perhaps because it isnt rational)

Yes, I think that is part of it: it is less shameful for a man to want just sex right now.

And I also think men are somewhat more inclined to want this than women, on average, biologically. But I have no proof.

real life

that's the proof

frequency of masturbation

What about it?

much higher for men

Has there been serious and conclusive research?

probably. :-)

Hah.

You know this professor who was going to give a lecture on taboos and erections, or something?

basically i need to translate women's higher reasoning into "subliminal"

I don't think there is a trick.

women are mostly talking bullshit about what they really want (they probably dont even realize)

they're also talking bullshit about why they dont like you

If she said you were smothering her, that may have been true.

that's why when you try to do what they claim they want, it doesnt work

smothering in what way?

that's bs

no, she was really thinking i was pathetic, and needy

taking way too much interest in her, being way too polite

it's the only explanation that makes sense

If you sent her too many messages or were pressing her for certain things, maybe the two things can overlap.

We'd have to see your entire conversation.

i wasn't pressing her for anything

if anything, i should perhaps have enquired about talking on the phone

been a bit more assertive

as for "too many messages", it's called a conversation

we're doing it now

Haha.

am i sending too many messages and smothering you?

I'd have to see it.

No!

Maybe you're right.

but you're not a woman trying to rationalize her subliminal feelings about me

There is no way for me to tell.

Indeed, I am not a woman trying to rationalize her subliminal feelings about you.

Being confident and a bit more aloof might help.

yeah quite

"confident" is pretty difficult to get across via text messages

women are playing the field, making online dating such a nightmare

It overlaps with "aloof".

and a luxury for them

so, like, short messages... maybe once or twice an evening

If she doesn't reply soon enough, just leave her be, that sort of thing.

almost to the point of "i dont give a shit about you but i'll do you the courtesy of saying something"

Make sure you don't consistently send more or faster or longer messages than she does. I hate to say this, but it sometimes works with people who are difficult in that regard.

of course, that requires enormous restraint of one's real feelings which is quite absurd

what a shame

@Cerberus yeah. and they say people like to talk about themselves. not with online dating they dont... not past the limit, anyway

after the limit, they dont want to talk at all

Not "I don't give a shit", bit "I like talking to you, but there are 1000x other fun things I could be doing right now, so I don't need you if you're not interested".

@Jez How do you mean?

right. even though that's total BS too.

Kind of. But! It works better when you really feel it.

@Cerberus ive heard many times that people like to talk about themselves, so "take an interest and ask them about themselves"

When I really want someone's attention who doesn't appear very interested, I feel bad.

@Jez Sure, that is good.

@Cerberus the trouble is, i only really feel that when i don't have a girl in mind i feel i stand a chance with. the second i do, i can't help but have strong romantic feelings.

Do you mean, the questions shouldn't become too intimate too soon?

maybe it's like a pent-up-puppy syndrome

Haha.

@Cerberus no... not if you do it too much. as you said, asking too much, too quickly, too keenly

women see it as needy and pathetic

even if they don't actually tell you that

Maybe you need to work on that? I mean, we all have that to some extent (I had it a little bit just this evening), but we should be able to keep it in check.

you did?

I really, really had to hold back asking "don't you want to see me?" and "did I do something wrong?" and stuff.

of whom?

I kind of failed, I said something like "or perhaps you don't want to meet", which you should really never say.

did you first ask to meet?

This guy I like(d). But he's weird. I didn't get enough signals back at some point, so I was about to give up, then tried one more time.

We have met, but it was a month or so ago. I thought it was nice, but he didn't show any kind of initiative after that, even though the meet-up was my initiative to begin with.

Ach, people are just difficult.

guy? are you gay?

Yes.

wow, didnt know that

I think I mentioned it, a while ago. But it doesn't matter.

people are indeed just difficult.

It is true that girls tend to overanalyse things.

unless they're not. because you're confident (you lucky bastards)

Heh.

Coming across as fairly confident can be a routine.

i mean, imagine being able to stroll thru life assuming you will be in a decent relationship. imagine things always "just happening" for you. that's how some guys have it!

boy do they not know the shit they're avoiding

Haha, yes, well, I don't hear from many people who feel they are like that (even the ones who I think are a bit like that).

they met some lovely girl in college, they never broke up... how damn easy is that?

and they have the audacity to complain sometimes, lol

They often break up when they're 39, and then it really sucks.

well.... possibly.

but they've certainly had a good innings by that point

so my sympathy is reduced

im gonna be 39 and having had no significant relationships

i guess it will be more of a plateau for me than a let down a break-up would be

but a low plateau

Again, I haven't seen your private conversations, but my best guess is that you can improve your chances by being (and therefore appearing) less needy.

"being" wouldn't apply.

Try to actually feel it, tell yourself again and again: "I don't need this girl, it's just fun to flirt with her".

i can't make my feelings less needy, merely pretend they're not

yeah, i do

and it doesnt really change anything

if i see an attractive girl who seems like she'd be a good match for me, and she's talking to me, i'll go crazy inside. always happens.

even if my higher reasoning is screaming out "CALM DOWN"

That kind of happens to us all.

But you need to keep it under control.

well i did to the best of my extent... which is proabably why the emotional downer when she ended it only lasted for maybe a day instead of longer

Aww.

the really annoying thing is that that emotional feeling can really distract you from work, so you're struggling to focus on it, because you want to start meeting and dating

Maybe it gets slightly better with practice?

Yes, that sucks.

@Cerberus that's a lot better than it was... i'd be pissed off and depressed for weeks

OK, so progress!

Just an idea, have you ever tried showing your conversation to your shrink?

but of course, you cant rush in to the meeting and dating because women stupidly require you to seem aloof and un-needy

they really overcomplicate things

i don't have a shrink

Maybe that would be an idea, some kind of counsellor.

i might be able to get over things even easier now that i've saved that Youtube video. i love how she phrases things almost from a male perspective, totally "gets it"

Haha yes!

i've tried counselling. i don't see how it would help at this point.

i know what's wrong with me, i just talk to myself a lot

Maybe try again and show your conversations.

@Jez That's not wrong, most of us do.

why bother? we figured out the problem in herer

@Cerberus no, what i mean is, i talk to myself in order to resolve the issues, as i am my own counsellor basically

i think getting one would just be a waste of time and money

one of the best ways i have found to control my emotions is to lie down, and talk to myself in a very objective way

after about an hour, i tend to lose negative emotion

it does help to be able to be sure of intelligent conversation ;-)

i mean i'm hardly going to reply to myself like some low-brow idiot

i know i make sense

Haha.

I'm sure.

How is a good motivation letter? top-left the receiver infos, title, bla bla, your name+date ?

Still, a second pair of eyes on the locus of your issues, i.e. your conversation with this girl, may help you actually improve things, or at confirm that the girl is crazy or something.

@cc Sure!

ok :)

Or Google how to write a motivation letter.

@Cerberus TBH, she was a dog lover. glad i dodged that bullet. bloody noisy annoying things.

cats rule

Haha.

Agreed!!

I don't trust Internet anymore

You know why you should be glad you're dating women?

me? i'm not.

Too may gays have pictures of themselves...with their chihuahuas...

Yayy cats!

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 lol, bunk bed

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 They really liked the other bed picture, by the way.

@Cerberus who?

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 the one at the bottom is like "I'm happy at your presence, but not enough to open my eyes"

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 My friends.

@Cerberus yay!

Sending that one as we speak.

But they're probably asleep now.

Hmm, interesting it seems some french put a space before colons like this mail : foo@bar

@cc yeah the French space out their punctuation

I'm supposed to do so too then, argh

no, don't bother

it'll irritate them to use superior English punctiation, which is fun

ok, with pleasure, and space gain

i particularly like purposely using doublequotes instead of guillements

lol

@Jez I even use single quotes sometimes

@cc as do I - more of a British thing, that

depends what mood i'm in

@Cerberus Felines are not my friends. I have two adorable pet rats, and my murine companions obviously dislike their traditional predators. I myself find housecats rather aloof...

or whether i am quoting 'something short' or "something really rather a lot longer"

@Jez You devil.

but if you're quoting something a single quote, it sucks, like 'I'm here' so double-quotes

anyway, Karen Straughan

sub her on youtube

@TheodoreBroda Sometimes the two can get along quite well.

i just discovered her this evening and she's great

i'd go out with her - and even better, i could tell her that to her face and she'd totally have no problem with me :-D

with your raptor face, no chance

sure, but she wouldnt mind my saying so

most women would get all bitchy about it

"oh, how presumptuous"

one does not simply ask for sex. one asks for dinner. learn your euphemisms.

@TheodoreBroda You may like this.

@Cerberus I stand corrected. Perhaps my disdain of cats was unfounded. I shall have to re-evaluate my position.

@TheodoreBroda Well, this is not typical behaviour. I think it is usually only possible if they grow up together or something.

Just as with cats and dogs.

rats can be nasty

like they can eat you, or carry nasty parasites

cats are less likely to

@Alraxite I didn't mean to say that "System Builder" was never used, just that I don't think it is a term that most people who use such discs use.

@Jez Rats and the bubonic plague, such slander! It was the fleas and poor human sanitation!

@Alraxite I think you are right about the definition: it should be only about those who actually manufacture the device, not resellers. But, again, it is commercialise, and commercialese sucks, so there is no hope, nor should we care too much about what stupid companies call their products.

@TheodoreBroda But who brought in the fleas?

im off to bed. to sleep, perchance to ... actually i'll just stop there

@Cerberus In the Dark Ages, humans carried as many parasites as the rats. The fleas didn't distinguish between filthy mammals.

@cc Wow, I love that cat! But aren't those alligators dangerous? Why did the cameraman and the other people not protect the cats and the children from them?

@Jez Haha good night!

@TheodoreBroda Yes, but that doesn't mean the rats cannot spread them.

Research has shown, for example, that the incidence of ticks on humans decreased sharply when they killed lots of deer in a certain foresty area.

@Cerberus Perhaps, but my rats are domesticated, so I hope they are not vectors for the plague ;-)

Anyways, I would still like those adorable rodents even if they did.

@Cerberus Where I live, the local alligators aren't very aggressive. They are cold blooded and their legs are awkward on solid ground, so they are often lethargic and slow. In fact, they let alligators just crawl around golf courses and local parks here in North Charleston, SC!

@TheodoreBroda I'm sure they aren't!

@TheodoreBroda Aww!

Cute.

@TheodoreBroda Wow, I would be terrified!

@TheodoreBroda just a big lizard

How about if they encounter a small dog or child?

Or if you're asleep on the grass?

they may test your flesh

@cc Have a heart!

Squamata != Crocodilia. Crocodiles are archosaurs.

@Cerberus I've heard parents here tease their naughty children, telling them they will be fed to the gators if they don't behave better. In fact, my neighbor's house across the street has a baby alligator. It was purposely placed there to scare away the obnoxious geese that migrate to SC during the winter and crap everywhere.

> crocodiles are more closely related to birds than they are to lizards

@tchrist Oh good to know, I though they ere closer

A croc has a 4-chambered heart.

It often cares for its young.

@TheodoreBroda Ahh that is smart. I suppose scary predators can be useful!

@tchrist I didn't know that.

galapagos turtles live so long, I envy them

@tchrist An excellent point. Here in South Carolina though, there are almost as many creationists as there are alligators, so good luck explaining that cladistic fact to those obstinate fundamentalists.

@cc This too shall pass.

I had no idea about the pedigree of reptiles.

“Reptile” is not a good word.

But that is not your fault.

Sauropterygia, are those like the Mosasaurus and such?

@tchrist Well, the alternative is "lizards".

Sauroi/-ai.

tetrapodes

> Advocates of phylogenetic nomenclature regard the traditional category 'Reptilia' to be invalid, and prefer to use the 'Amniota' or rather 'Sauropsida' category, because not all descendants of a common ancestor are included. However, in practice, these non-cladistic classifications, such as reptile, fish, and amphibian, remain in use by some biologists, especially in popular books written for a general audience.

@cc There are too many tetrapodes.

@Cerberus indeed :)

@Cerberus See diagram above. :)