English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

4:00 PM

@AwalGarg Good luck!

Hey, I have a question. I wonder what you guys think.

Awal Garg

@Cerberus i am not participating, i am the organizer...

Alraxite

@Cerberus I think you're going to ask a question.

Cerberus

There is this television programme where they give a bullied kid a hidden camera, and the bullying is shown on television, presumably with commentary, later confrontations/amends, etc.

What do you think?

Good? Bad? Ethical?

meer2kat

@Cerberus if it gets the bully in trouble, maybe

Cerberus

Maybe what?

@Alraxite Yes, put it on his body somewhere.

meer2kat

4:02 PM

@Cerberus maybe ethical

Alraxite

@Cerberus They 'give' him a hidden camera?

Anonymous

@Cerberus Um, it sounds like it might cause a disproportionate response

Anonymous

Or, if it doesn't, that it's at least intended to cause a disproportionate response

Cerberus

@snailboat In what way?

Awal Garg

@Cerberus you give the camera to the kid and send him to get bullied? really?

Cerberus

4:03 PM

@AwalGarg No, it's just his regular life as a bullied kid.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@AwalGarg presumably the bullying is already happening

meer2kat

@snailboat remember that little girl who was taunted on the school bus a few years ago and they got it on camera? the dad got on the bus and threatened the bully's life

Cerberus

One thing I am reluctant about is that it's not public television, and they might cut the footage in ways to suggest that the situation is worse than it really is.

Awal Garg

@Cerberus Ok, uptill that part, it is not good. I can't say if it is bad or ethical. But after that, it is good...

Alraxite

@Cerberus Oh, I read it the other way round. I thought the bullied kid was the bully. Because that would make sense.

Cerberus

4:04 PM

@AwalGarg Huh, what do you mean? What part? After what?

Awal Garg

@Cerberus showing it on TV, confrontations...

Cerberus

@Alraxite Umm that would be weird...

@AwalGarg If you don't show it on television it's good?

I don't understand.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Bullying, like any other problem, often gets ignored until enough evidence is shown about it.

Awal Garg

@Cerberus no, i mean that part is good. But, umm, i am a bit confused...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So in terms of getting actual results it could be good.

Cerberus

4:06 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, that is true.

KitFox

It's good until you get the shit kicked out of you for "tattling".

meer2kat

@KitFox THAT

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

However bullies have rights too, so if the result of this is that they are being disproportionately punished, then that is bad.

Cerberus

What I would want is for the full, unedited footage to be available to the principal.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah it is a bit of a surveillance state or panopticum.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus yeah, the best way would be to use the footage as evidence in school disciplinary matters, and to simply report on the outcomes.

The stories could be dramatized for tv if the identities of the people are obscured, preventing them from reprisals, etc.

Cerberus

4:07 PM

But is the television programme still better than nothing? Or worse?

Awal Garg

It would be better that you first shoot it with the hidden camera. Study the footage, and make it safe if it is not. Kids (like me) would rather take it as a tutorial of bullying kids...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Who knows?

Robusto

2

A: two uncountable nouns with and

The two uncountables don't combine to make a plural, so: How much flour and butter is needed to make a pizza ?

Not true.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 One thing to note is that they had lots of group discussion with the class, all kids could talk about the stuff in a non-confrontational way.

And it was supposedly an eye-opener for many of the other kids who weren't involved, what was actually happening in their own habitat.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I don't think it's inappropriate to use surveillance in a targetted situation like that.

Robusto

4:09 PM

Who is sucking @Reg's dick on the starboard?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Why not?

Any kid in your school could be wearing a camera 24/7...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus because it's being used to address a specific case.

Awal Garg

@Cerberus To be frank, I don't think a bullied kid would like the idea of showing that he is bullied. Maybe very lil kids would...

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I suppose.

@AwalGarg Well, they do. The programme is about to be broadcast I think, it's new.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, the video evidence should be treated like any surveillance data the police might get using a warrant. Otherwise, yes, that would be a problem.

Awal Garg

4:11 PM

@Cerberus whats the age of targeted kids?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The police?

This is about children...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But a victim using a camera to get evidence of their agressors is not an issue.

@Cerberus I'm making an analogy.

Cerberus

@AwalGarg I don't know...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

When the police have a warrant to wire-tap a phone, they're not allowed to listen in on any old call. They have to exclude calls that aren't part of the warrant.

Similarly, if a student is wired for sound or video and sent into the school, the administrators would be wrong to try to use the hours of surveillance footage to spy on everyone and scan for any sign of wrongdoing.

meer2kat

@Robusto Wow he is mr. popular indeed

Anonymous

4:12 PM

@Robusto Are you sure this is a clear-cut case where speakers don't exhibit any variation?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Though lots of schools already have cameras in them anyway.

Anonymous

I think it might depend on whether the combination is construed as singular or plural

Cerberus

@AwalGarg OK looks like high school. I'm sure going to watch it tonight, the first episode...

meer2kat

@rob sorry, i felt like a full answer should be typed out about it to show the differences

Anonymous

Looking at corpus results in COCA for how much * and * is/are, I see both in small numbers.

Cerberus

4:13 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah OK.

Awal Garg

@Cerberus which channel? whats the name of the show? and are you sure there is no dramatization involved?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't think so, not here!

Mitch

@meer2kat you sounded so cheery. I was not so cheery at the time.

Anonymous

I like the is version in the question, anyway.

Anonymous

Your English May Vary

meer2kat

4:14 PM

@Mitch what?

Awal Garg

23

Q: Should a dot or period (.) get italicized?

When do we italicise the dot (.) or period symbol, does it actually change the (.). So, is . different from . Can anyone tell just by looking at the example which one is italicised? And does it matter? Same for colon (:) and an underscore (_) Update: To all answerers, thank you very...

font

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus But of course, there are potential abuses everywhere: the administrators could spy on the whole school, the tv show could over-dramatize the problem leading to a public outcry that creates unnecessary or harmful burdens on the school to fix a problem that isn't real, the tv show could expose the identity of the bully and that kid could suffer disproportionately...

Cerberus

@AwalGarg It's in Dutch. Dramatisation would be a huge scandal, I don't think so. And it would be impossible to hide, the children are all on camera. And some people have already sued the programme.

Robusto

@meer2kat Don't be sorry. It had to be said. In case you don't know, I stopped answering user questions over a year ago (except in special cases and for hats).

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus well, my high school did. And to my knowledge the administrators never once used the footage for anything.

Awal Garg

4:15 PM

@Cerberus oh! the program is sued and its going live today? wow...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

There was bullying, there were fights, etc, but I don't recall ever hearing about a single case where the video evidence was considered.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, that is possible. So far it looks like the bullies are recognisable (would be impossible to hide anyway, if you're at that school and you know the kids involved personally).

meer2kat

@AwalGarg that's pretty funny

@Robusto okay :)

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Hmm.

Awal Garg

@meer2kat how?

Mitch

4:16 PM

@meer2kat follow the links

Cerberus

@AwalGarg It may not go live if the court says no, I think.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It would be impossible to hide... from the kids at that school, but the rest of the country should be unaware.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Then what were the camerae for?

Anonymous

@Cerberus I award you one imaginary snail point for camerae.

Awal Garg

@Cerberus If it were here in India, the conditions would be even worse. The one who sued would have been jailed!

Cerberus

4:17 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But the rest of the country doesn't matter, right? It's what the other kids would do that matters, the parents, teachers, and such.

@snailboat Gratias tibi ago.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus dunno. deterence? major problems like theft, inter-school fights (there were a few of those), gun/bomb threats (approx 1/year, always false alarm)... ?

Cerberus

@AwalGarg Haha what?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Ugh what kind of school did you go to?

Theft, yes. The other things, no.

Awal Garg

@Cerberus its true. some people here are fan of seeing bad things (only some, and ironically, they are in power...)

meer2kat

@Mitch what links??

Cerberus

@AwalGarg Sounds odd...

meer2kat

4:18 PM

@AwalGarg you have to zoom to 500% to see it. no one would ever really notice

Awal Garg

@meer2kat See from a fontographer's point of view (I am not one although)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus it was really safe. But approx once/year some joker would call 911 and report something suspicious and we'd "lock down".

Awal Garg

@Cerberus true, it is...

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And you need camerae for that?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Actually one time someone called 911 because they thought they saw a gun. So they locked down the school and sent in the police, but then someone saw a police officer with a shotgun and thought it was a bad guy, so THEY called 911 again, and hilarity ensued.

Awal Garg

4:20 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 wow, really?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, I dunno. I'm not saying they need the cameras. But they have them. (assuming they're not decoys)

meer2kat

@AwalGarg i'm knit picky. but i don't think i'd ever get that extreme

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@AwalGarg yeah. So essentially the school was perfectly safe the whole time, but we still had a lockdown and police response.

meer2kat

...or is it nit picky?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@meer2kat nit.

Cerberus

4:21 PM

The trailer has things like this. The class watching some of the footage together. A quiet, serious, open atmosphere. One of the bullies saying, "it looks rather bad when I see it like that. You don't realise what it's like when you're doing it."

Awal Garg

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It would be fun if it happens here... I would love the action..

Cerberus

So it is centred around reflection, therapy, improvement, reconciliation.

A little bit feel-good.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@AwalGarg yeah it was a bit like a fire drill. just an excuse to not do work for 15 minutes. But the danger is that if a cop shows up with a gun, looking for a gunman, people can get shot by accident.

Cerberus

You have gunmen in Canada?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus well, yes. rarely.

Cerberus

4:22 PM

Ouch.

meer2kat

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 darn

Cerberus

I thought you had strict gun laws?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

École Polytechnique massacre

The École Polytechnique Massacre, also known as the Montreal Massacre, occurred on December 6, 1989 at the École Polytechnique in Montreal, Quebec, Canada. Twenty-five-year-old Marc Lépine, armed with a legally obtained Mini-14 rifle and a hunting knife, shot twenty-eight people before killing himself. He began his attack by entering a classroom at the university, where he separated the male and female students. After claiming that he was "fighting feminism" and calling the women "a bunch of feminists," he shot all nine women in the room, killing six. He then moved through corridors, th...

Cerberus

Yikes.

KitFox

Lovely. Thanks for bringing that up again.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:23 PM

@Cerberus If you think that means there are no guns at all in the country, you have a strange notion about how law-abiding criminals are.

KitFox

cries, runs from room

Awal Garg

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 here, cops are slow, it would be and excuse for an hour. And the risk is worth the time

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It says "legally obtained".

If you prevent people from legally obtaining guns, that usually works to some degree.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus well, that was a rifle. Not the weapon of choice for most criminals. But yes, rifles are legal and common.

Cerberus

Yikes.

We had one shooting incident in recent years, also with a legal weapon.

Or weapons.

Eight people were shot in a mall.

By someone with known psychological problems.

We also had someone who tried to ram the royal family with his car. He barely missed them. Also a nut.

But forbidding cars is hard hehe...

meer2kat

4:26 PM

Mass shootings make me sad for humanity

KitFox

Thank god the nut was safe.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Most of the random shooting incidents are by people with mental issues. But that doesn't mean that kids can't get guns and bring them to school. Even handguns. It's pretty rare though. But, a kid was shot a few years ago in school at my dad's old high school.

Cerberus

@meer2kat Yeah.

@KitFox He crashed into a monument and died.

KitFox

Oh. I thought you meant the kind you eat.

It did seem rather extreme for cracking open a peanut.

meer2kat

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 breakfast club?

KitFox

4:28 PM

We had kids who brought guns to school sometimes. Usually a new hunting rifle or something.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh, that's awful. All I'm saying is that strict gun laws help, and that you should never allow a (potentially dangerous) nut job to legally own a gun. I think they are working on that in many countries.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox Crows in Japan drop nuts at intersections so that cars can drive over them and crack them, then when the light changes they fly down to eat.

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Asians are so smart.

Awal Garg

@KitFox you can cover it with kevlar

Cerberus

I love corvidae.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:29 PM

@Cerberus yes, I fully agree. our strict gun laws make gun violence much less of a problem than in the US, which is where all our illegal handguns come from. But we still have some gun violence.

meer2kat

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Shootings were common around my school. Lock downs once a month or so. But usually the students kept the guns for their gangs after work. The gang rivalries weren't within our school but with our school and another one in the city

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Right. And so perhaps it could be even better, the situation, if laws were even stricter. At least for crazy people etc.

Awal Garg

@meer2kat common?

Cerberus

@meer2kat Wow...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I read about the Virginia Tech shootings. The shooter was diagnosed as mentally ill... he was depressed and also psychotic. But he was able to buy a gun despite the laws prohibiting someone like him from doing so.

KitFox

4:31 PM

Same story all the time.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 How is that possible?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus because he fell through the cracks.

Like basically all mentally ill people everywhere.

KitFox

Because in the end it comes down to one person handing you the gun and taking your money.

Cerberus

At any rate, that seems to be the the area we should focus on. And we are, in many countries.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 What do you mean?

Anonymous

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, for values of everywhere = "the US".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:32 PM

So the real solution would be to disallow gun sales period, then it'd be much harder for crazy people to buy guns, because it'd be much harder for Everyone to buy guns.

@snailboat no, I mean almost every country I know of.

MickLH

@Cerberus He means that nobody gives a f**k about the mentally ill

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I'm sorry to be this guy, but I have to ask if you've ever considered that if you outlaw guns... then only outlaws have guns?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I mean that there wasn't enough money available to treat this guy, the courts didn't want to put him in jail when they came across him, the hospitals didn't want to hold him, or treat him, and nobody was required to fill out the paperwork that would have prevented him from buying the guns, because nobody cares, and the gun shop might not have run the background check anyway, because profit.

@MickLH That'd be a huge improvement.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You should be required to bring a signed letter from a shrink saying you have no relevant psychological issues to a gun shop. The shopkeeper would need to meticulously check this, and should be meticulously checked by the government. If at some point it is found that he sold a gun to a relevantly crazy person, he should go to prison. Just a suggestion.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It'd be easy to get that letter.

Cerberus

@MickLH Well, it could be argued that outlaws have guns anyway, so that would make no difference for them...

MickLH

4:35 PM

So think logically for a moment guys

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Guns are pretty much never, ever used as a defense mechanism.

MickLH

If all the outlaws are the only ones with guns, what happens?

Stack Exchange

Limerick Machine: If you can’t tell if someone’s awake There’s a test you can force them to take …

posted on April 28, 2014 by sgdi

If you can’t tell if someone’s awake There’s a test you can force them to take As fast as you can Give them a PET scan And you’ll know if that coma’s a fake New Scientist story http://doi.org/sdq

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MickLH domestic homicide goes down

KitFox

Suicide rate drops.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:36 PM

accidental deaths by firearms go down

Awal Garg

Can I just flag @StackExchange

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

childhood death goes down

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 How? Make it hard. Require a full check up and browse all records.

MickLH

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I'm sorry, you clearly have never researched this topic or else you would see that the crime rate is proportional to run restrictions in all countries and all instances

I'm done with this conversation because you can do your own research

KitFox

@MickLH Clearly you have never researched the topic either.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:36 PM

@MickLH You're wrong about that.

MickLH

I will be doing my research... again... because I do this every single time someone says I'm wrong

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MickLH You're the one who started out "being that guy".

MickLH

I'll be back tomorrow, but I still will refuse to discuss unless you both decide to do your own research as well and have citations for your points

Cerberus

@MickLH "the crime rate is proportional to gun restrictions in all countries and all instances" — what do you mean exactly?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

No thanks. I'm a Canadian, and our gun violence is really really low

and I don't have to worry about getting shot by some asshole with road rage

Cerberus

4:38 PM

Ours is lower!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

or in a school

or in a mall

or just about anywhere

MickLH

Lol, I'm sorry that you believe in fox news

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

because handguns are pretty much illegal here under all circumstances

MickLH

It must be really hard thinking that's really your neighbors

KitFox

I live in the US, and I don't have to worry about those things either.

MickLH

4:38 PM

Oh well, I guess ignorance isn't always bliss

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Same here.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox did you mean me to not add KitFox?

KitFox

@MickLH He lives in Canada.

Cerberus

@MickLH So what is your point exactly? I don't think I have seen it?

MickLH

@Cerberus I mean that when the gun regulations have been relaxed, related crimes have decreased significantly, at least in the statistics I've researched

Cerberus

4:39 PM

Huh?

It would be interesting to see those statistics.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MickLH Unlike American news, our news media actually reports on stuff that happens outside Canada, so we hear about those things that happen down there. Also we know where our illegal handguns come from. Most of them are stolen from "law-abiding" gun owners in the US.

MickLH

Like I said, you can research it yourself

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox well, ME is practically Canada :)

MickLH

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Like I said, I'm sorry that you believe in fox news :P try doing your own research one day.

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 True.

Cerberus

4:40 PM

@MickLH I have seen lots of statistics, and more guns usually correlates with more murders/killings.

MickLH

I mean, come on, you can't expect your local TV news to command respect right?

KitFox

OK. Enough of the gun conversation.

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Middle Earth!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MickLH You accuse me of doing no research. I accuse you of doing the same. Conversation over.

KitFox

Seriously. Keep talking about it and I will boot you.

MickLH

4:41 PM

coughs

Cerberus

Just calm down, no reason to get angry.

KitFox

So. Balrogs. Wings or no wings?

MickLH

@Cerberus I actually didn't realize anyone was angry, so apologies to anyone who I might have offended.

Cerberus

OK you haven't offended me.

MickLH

:)

I was scared for a second haha, was looking like IRC

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:43 PM

@MickLH I'm not offended either, but srsly gun control conversations never go well. both sides will just cite stats that they claim completely back up their case, and the other side will refuse to listen.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox legs, a whip and a sword. Wings... I don't know. I think they might like the Beatles

MickLH

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I give you my word that I consider anything you tell me, this goes for anyone

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox No wings, unless you think they evolved from penguins, or ostriches, or other flightless birds. They fall to their deaths a lot.

Cerberus

Anyone happen to know why Poland has so many murders?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MickLH well, our mod has put her foot down, this topic will have to wait for another day. But there was a funny graph put out by reuters the other day...

Cerberus

4:45 PM

I think Finland has pretty lax gun laws, comparatively.

KitFox

Oi!

MickLH

I just will never understand egos

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Yes, gun laws aren't the only factor.

MickLH

I get it, everyone wants to have it both ways, "The double standard should work FOR me!"

Cerberus

@MickLH That's because the plural of ego is nos.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:46 PM

anyway, lunch time. bbl

Cerberus

Unless it's Greek, then it's hêmeis.

KitFox

You want to discuss it, make yourself another room.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 True.

MickLH

Sounds like a useless way to confuse people in real life lol

Matt Эллен

how can it be useless if it confuses people?

MickLH

4:47 PM

I prefer to communicate with my language, than to flaunt my archaic collection of vocabulary

So I just see it as useless, not saying it's objectively lacking any use

Cerberus

@MickLH But why??

@MattЭллен Exactly!!

> The Incomprehensible Room.

The purpose of the room.

Be incomprehensible.

meer2kat

@AwalGarg i lived in the ghetto

@awal @cereb sorry, i was reading the polytechnique article

Cerberus

What was it like?

meer2kat

@Cerberus the ghetto?

Cerberus

Was it like, "it's not so bad/unsafe if you're used to it and know your way around the ghetto"?

meer2kat

4:49 PM

@Cerberus it got bad enough that i couldn't go the park across the street alone

Cerberus

Oh, dear.

I wonder what really causes ghetti.

meer2kat

@Cerberus but i never felt unsafe except for at the rival school football game. there were about a dozen cop cars lined around the stadium the whole game and an ambulance on hand and there was still a shooting. that was when i was 14

Cerberus

They have them in Paris and London to some degree, but not in Amsterdam or Berlin.

@meer2kat Ouch.

MickLH

@Cerberus I could tell you, but you wouldn't believe me, and no it's not about that

Cerberus

So why didn't you feel unsafe when you couldn't go to the park alone?

meer2kat

4:51 PM

@MickLH micckkkkkkkk <3

MickLH

:D @meer2kat missed you <3