English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

00:19

BLOCK THAT METAPHOR!

"If you're gonna go down that road, you're gonna open up a big can of worms, and it—it becomes a slippery slope."

—Red Sox announcer, during Yankees-Red Sox game tonight

tchrist

01:33

@Cerberus Is this some bizarre Google Easter-egg trick?

There is no possible way I can envision that "I cannot hit" becomes "Let us live".

I was poking around at different languages’ words for target, like bersaglio in Italian or blanco is Spanish.

French has cible, Catalan has blanc, Portuguese has alvo. It looks like Spanish and Catalan took one word for white and Portuguese took another.

Cerberus

@tchrist It's just all wrong.

Lorem isn't a word.

And the alternative suggestion "ledo" isn't a word either.

Except as a proper name.

tchrist

That’s why I suspect an Easter egg.

Cerberus

Or their Latin just sucks.

tchrist

Heh.

@Cerberus No, but lorum is, and gave us a bird’s lores, that stripe by their eye.

But that isn’t what’s going on here. It’s weird.

Cerberus

I see lorem.

tchrist

01:41

I know.

Cerberus

From the hateful filler text that so annoys me.

tchrist

Yeah, hence Easter-egg hunt.

Why would they do that?

It doesn’t make any sense.

Let’s live not fribblesnotz.

It’s like some kind of mean joke.

Cerberus

Every single Latin translation is just completely wrong and meaningless.

translate.google.com/#en/la/How%20do%20you%20get%20there%3F

tchrist

Wow, even I can do better than that.

Cerberus

They just leave out two of the most important words entirely.

Try any sentence.

tchrist

01:44

translate.google.com/#en/la/…

Cerberus

Hah yes, they decided that "clothes" wasn't important.

translate.google.com/#en/la/…

tchrist

What is this, random crap? XVII? And potes um?

Cerberus

> Because of this to me, you can trust 17.

tchrist

Right, I was asking why it switched persons.

Cerberus

No fucking clue.

So stupid.

tchrist

01:46

My, but you are riled, aren’t you!

Cerberus

It's really easy to do better than that if you just translate the words one by one.

tchrist

Ok yeah, everything it emits is nonsense in Latin.

Cerberus

Yeah.

Dutch is better, but still many random additions and deletions.

tchrist

I think it just gives up sometimes.

translate.google.com/#en/la/….

At least it preserves the right person in the French version.

Actually, I think the French version is ever right enough.

The Spanish is terrible at the start.

And has a spurious para in the last sentence.

Dutch has a single word for "evening sky"? That’s somehow nice.

Cerberus

02:39

@tchrist Elit is not a word in Latin.

Reading the Latin, I would have no idea what the English was about, it makes little sense.

@tchrist Do we? We just don't write spaces in compound nouns?

I would say avondlucht or avondhemel.

tchrist

The latter was used.

Cerberus

Hemel = sky, heaven.

tchrist

Duh

Sorry

Cerberus

Heh.

Himmel.

tchrist

Yes.

@Cerberus 𐌰𐍄𐍄𐌰 𐌿𐌽𐍃𐌰𐍂 𐌸𐌿 𐌹𐌽 𐌷𐌹𐌼𐌹𐌽𐌰𐌼

Can you read that?

Cerberus

02:46

tchrist

If you don’t have the font, it’s Atta unsar þu in himinam.

But do you recognize the text?

It’s the first line of the Paternoster — in Gothic.

Cerberus

I have to say no.

I was not raised a Christian, not even in Gothic.

tchrist

So?

Cerberus

Father our thou in heaven.

tchrist

Yes.

Cerberus

02:48

Is what I read, then.

tchrist

I was just giving you another language with your heaven in it.

Cerberus

Heh.

The consonantal changes are surprising.

M v. V, L v. N.

tchrist

I don’t know why you have an L.

But M/V I can see.

Cerberus

Unrelated: on the 5th on May, national liberation day (big parties everywhere), there will be a huge talking statue on Dam Square.

The statue will say whatever you text it through some special number.

tchrist

And I presume -am is a case inflection, probably dative.

Cerberus

02:50

Anyone can send it a text.

There will be no filter.

tchrist

@Cerberus This may not turn out well.

jinx

Cerberus

Profanity and anti-semitism are expected.

But the shall be no censorship on liberation day, of any kind.

So this will be cool.

tchrist

Must we tolerate intolerance?

Cerberus

Speech is not intolerance.

It's just words. They have no magical power.

On the day before, the victims of WW2 are commemorated.

Especially the Jews.

tchrist

People have taken their own lives upon hearing certain words.

Cerberus

02:53

The wreaths will still be there on the 5th.

tchrist

Nazgûl, eh?

Still other people have taken others’ lives upon hearing different words.

Cerberus

Wreaths, not wraiths.

tchrist

But words don’t kill people, no.

Cerberus

In a very dangerous situation, censorship can be permissible, necessary. But not in a Western nation at peace.

tchrist

Most governments forbid words that incite the assassination of their own head of state.

Or call for it.

Cerberus

02:56

Well, inciting violence directly, with a real chance that it will result in violence, seems a valid exception.

As is defamation, though only in the strictest sense.

tchrist

An unfortunate one, but yes.

Defamation is a strange one. The other is clearer.

Cerberus

But if the statue says "all Jews to the gas!", there is no real danger of anything.

@tchrist Defamation in the strict sense is intended to harm the reputation of a specific individual by means of lies.

tchrist

Nor any danger if it says "Death to the Burkas!", eh?

Cerberus

I would say no, but that is borderline.

tchrist

I can see it spouting anti-Islamic blasphemies against You-Know-Who causing madness in his followers.

And I do not mean anger.

Cerberus

02:58

Meh.

If you insult Mohammed, the only potential victim of violence is yourself.

So you should be allowed to do it.

The correct way to deal with undesirable speech is counterspeech.

Exceptions excepted.

tchrist

All I can say is good luck. That is my dear sister’s quadragesimal birthday.

Cerberus

Ah, I see.

tchrist

I should hate it for it to be marred by tragedy.

Cerberus

Some people are too afraid of words. It is better to show them that, see, the world won't collapse if you let people utter the most depraved poison.

What tragedy?

tchrist

Any.

She has seen enough of that already.

@Cerberus But the statue is anonymous.

Cerberus

03:03

Yes, so there is no real problem.

Mohammed is insulted anonymously and onymously all the time.

tchrist

Trollery is not drollery.

Cerberus

It is undesirable.

But nor censorable.

Etiquette is important, but not something to be enforced by law, generally.

tchrist

banishes the poopy puppies from his lawn with a shout and a snarl

Cerberus

Ah, you suffer from a dog plague?

tchrist

Somewhat.

But mostly it’s just an old man growling “Get offa my lawn!”

I don’t like them coming prowling around, for obvious reasons. They do it often enough. But I have gates and fences under which the kittens can dash, given ample warning.

Cerberus

03:07

You think the puppies could attack the kittens?

tchrist

Of course.

People have great dogs here.

Cerberus

So no puppies.

tchrist

And you never know.

Cerberus

One of our cats was killed by what we call a "Deense Dog".

tchrist

I don’t know that word.

Cerberus

03:08

Pronounce as in Dutch.

A Danish Dog, is what it should mean.

tchrist

That doesn’t help.

Cerberus

Dog is not normally a Dutch word; I believe it is limited to English.

A Great Dane, says Wikipedia.

tchrist

It sounds like some abominable pastry confection with a frankfurter at its center.

Cerberus

Frankfurter, is that a sausage?

tchrist

Hot dog.

Yes.

Wiener.

Tubesteak.

In Hawaii, there is hot-dog and spam sushi.

In the convenience stores.

Weirdos.

Cerberus

03:11

...

tchrist

I’m very sorry for your cat, and your family.

Cerberus

It was twenty years ago.

tchrist

I do not trust canines that outmass a feline by greater than 3x.

Cerberus

I mostly stopped dreaming of her after her brother died, five years or so ago.

Although I think I still occasionally dream of her.

tchrist

I dream of the dead often.

Cerberus

03:12

Yeah.

tchrist

As in, every few days.

Cerberus

I also dream that the living die.

tchrist

That too.

Cerberus

Even though they are fairly healthy.

tchrist

And when I wake from such dreams, I have learned not to go back to sleep.

Cerberus

03:13

No?

tchrist

Wakefulness does not banish them until you walk around and do something else for a while.

Cerberus

I can't go back to sleep then.

tchrist

Merely arising to pee and returning to bed is to return to the same nightmare.

Cerberus

It takes a while.

tchrist

And you have to distract your mind.

Cerberus

03:14

Yes, that helps, I suppose.

But there is no chance that I will fall asleep soon after a nightmare anyway.

tchrist

You need temporal distance, and mental distance.

Cerberus

Would you fall asleep immediately after?

tchrist

"Would" is probably not the operative modal here.

"Could" works better, for will is not involved. I could not will myself to do so.

It depends though.

And I have learned not to.

I have always dreamt of having a puma, that no dog might outweigh it by magical factor of 3x. This is of course impossible, but I would never fear for its life from a single canine, only a pack.

And we officially have no timber wolf packs, only prairie ones. Still.

Cerberus

@tchrist I mean habitual will.

tchrist

I am generally too traumatized.

Prairie wolf = coyote

Cerberus

03:20

By the mountain lion, right?

tchrist

Yes.

No mountain lion fears a single coyote.

A mountain lion can run at 45 mph over short distances, a housecat 30.

Cerberus

That sucks.

But can it climb a tree?

tchrist

Of course.

Cerberus

I didn't know lions could climb trees.

tchrist

They can.

Cerberus

03:23

Fast?

tchrist

Even Panthera leo, let alone Puma concolor.

Cerberus

I see.

tchrist

But the former seldom choose to; the latter, often.

They are the same size as leopards.

Cerberus

Hmm.

tchrist

Have you seen those pictures of the bobcat chased up a giant saguaro cactus-tree by a mountain lion?

Bobcat = Lynx rufus

google.com/…

The lion chose not to follow.

Cerberus

03:28

Ouch.

Doesn't that hurt?

tchrist

Lord yes!!!!!!

But not so much as dying.

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2029555/…

Forgive the source.

Cerberus

Teeth or spines.

tchrist

It says escaped without a scratch.

I’d like to know how Bob managed that one.

If you look at the close-up, you can see how it might have occurred.

The bobcat must have dug his paws into the middle, in the deep trenches where there are no spines. It was such a huge cactus (50') that the ribbing was very wide and deep.

The lion’s paws were too big for that.

But just imagine backing down, as it must have had to do.

Very prickly situation indeed.

Cerberus

Oh, the trenches are wider at the base?

tchrist

Yes.

Cerberus

03:34

But how come there is no blood at the top?

It is sitting on many needles.

tchrist

Click on the first picture, and you can kinda see that.

Cerberus

The wider trenches, yes.

Still, when running at speed...

tchrist

It does not show the base, because it is too tall to fit in one frame and still show the kitty well. But it does naturally get wider the lower down you go, and vice versa.

You’ve never seen a giant saguaro up close and personal, have you?

They have remarkable flowers.

And they are not called “giant” for nothing.

Only the organ pipe cactus rivals them in the States, and those live only at the Arizona border with Mexico.

All these things are night-blooming.

And they are pollinated by bats and doves.

Cerberus

That's nice.

tchrist

The flowers wilt in the 120-degree sun soon enough.

Cerberus

03:37

300 years is old. I had no idea cacti could become that old.

tchrist

You really have to think of them as “trees”, although of course they are not. No xylem.

Cerberus

Wood?

tchrist

Yes.

Cerberus

Xulon?

tchrist

I suppose. :)

Xylem

Xylem is one of the two types of transport tissue in vascular plants (phloem is the other). The word xylem is derived from the Greek word ξύλον (xylon), meaning "wood"; the best-known xylem tissue is wood, though it is found throughout the plant. Its basic function is to transport water, but it also transports some nutrients. Structure The most distinctive xylem cells are the long tracheary elements that transport water. Tracheids and vessel elements are distinguished by their shape; vessel elements are shorter, and are connected together into long tubes that are called vessels. Xyl...

Cerberus

03:40

That is that -em doing there? Is it from -ma?

tchrist

The OED is not very helpful there.

xylem /ˈzaɪlɛm/. Bot.

Etymology: mod. (Nägeli in Ger.) f. Gr. ξύλον wood: cf. phloem.

Collective name for the cells, vessels, and fibres forming the harder portion of the fibrovascular tissue; the wood, as a tissue of the plant-body. Also attrib.

1875 Bennett & Dyer tr. Sachs’ Bot. 94 - The different forms of tissue of a differentiated fibro-vascular bundle may be classified into two groups, which Nägeli calls the Phloëm- (Bast) and Xylem- (Wood) portion of the bundle... The xylem-portion of the fibro-vascular bundle has mostly a strong tendency to thicken its cell-forms.

Cerberus

Perhaps from -emos.

Some such suffix anyway.

But I have to go.

tchrist

Is that an accusative plural?

Ok, good night.

I’m glad I taught you a new word.

But you already knew it.

Cerberus

No, I meant the Greek suffix.

tchrist

You just didn’t know you knew it.

May you dream of bobcats in the desert.

Cerberus

03:42

Scary.

tchrist

They won’t hurt you unless you force them to.

They are small.

Cerberus

I need to do some w*rk first.

tchrist

30–40 pounds.

Maybe less.

Cerberus

Ah, so two to three cats?

tchrist

Yes.

Cerberus

03:43

Can they ever be petted?

tchrist

And there are 25-pound cats: Maine coons.

Cerberus

That's large.

tchrist

But still.

@Cerberus Yes: if and only if they were hand-raised from birth by humans.

Just like any other wildcat.

Cerberus

Right.

tchrist

Sweet dreams.

Cerberus

03:44

Yeah not yet.

But no chatting until I finish this stuff.

tchrist

I must sleep.

Cerberus

Good luck.

tchrist

I have kittens to cuddle with and dream of.

skullpatrol

05:12

Hi @Mahnax

Mahnax

Hi.

skullpatrol

How are you?

Mahnax

I'm doing well enough. Lots to do. You?

skullpatrol

Fine thanks :-)

Mahnax

Good good.

skullpatrol

05:16

How are you finding chemical engineering?

Mahnax

I'm not in chemical engineering. I start university next year.

skullpatrol

Oh, sorry.

Mahnax

I just got really early acceptance.

It's okay, don't worry about it.

skullpatrol

Do you like chemistry?

Mahnax

I do, yes.

skullpatrol

05:19

I mean are you good at it?

Mahnax

Oh, those are different questions, haha. Yes, fairly.

skullpatrol

Indeed, very different :D

Mahnax

Yeah. Well, bedtime for me. Good night.

skullpatrol

later pal

skullpatrol

05:49

Matt Эллен

10:21

in EL&U Blog, 2 hours ago, by Matt Эллен

0

Q: Do we want a blog?

As many of you know, we have a blog. For those of you who didn't know, that's no surprise as we haven't added new content since July last year. Last time we tried to get contributors for the blog, we came up with a list of topic ideas, enough for fortnightly content for a few months. It started ...

KitFox

10:52

I saw that.

Matt Эллен

yay!

KitFox

Good morning.

Matt Эллен

Hello :)

KitFox

I believe I am to have breakfast this morning with my family.

Matt Эллен

That sounds lovely

tea and toast?

A full hobbit breakfast?

KitFox

11:03

Tea and toast? Is that a usual UK breakfast?

Matt Эллен

Yeah. For working people on weekdays

KitFox

That's decidedly quaint to my American sensibilities.

It's the tea, I suppose. So refined.

Matt Эллен

:D

KitFox

Even your working class reads Dickens.

Huh. That was a funny thing for me to say.

Matt Эллен

lol of course!

KitFox

11:06

I can't decide between bacon and eggs or sausage and cheese on a muffin.

Or maybe just bacon and toast.

Matt Эллен

sausage and eggs

damn I'm hungry

KitFox

I get the egg on the side if I have the sandwich.

They call it Kit's sandwich.

Matt Эллен

nice

KitFox

My eldest has recently decided that he likes sausage, so I might go with the sandwich to encourage him to have some more variety in his breakfast selections.

I think he really likes to say "the usual" to Miss Jas, though.

Matt Эллен

sausage is so good

time for lunch!

bbl

KitFox

11:09

We go down to the diner a lot.

See you later!

meer2kat

11:29

yayyyy oatmeal

Matt Эллен

11:43

mmm Thai green curry

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…