English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

David M

02:00

It occurs to me that I know little about you other than being Dutch.

Cerberus

I have heard them snort, but not frequently.

David M

What do you do for a living?

Cerberus

Haha.

Many things, one of which is teaching Latin and Greek.

David M

That explains your knowledge of both.

And your age?

Cerberus

Well, yes, although most of my friends have done Latin and Greek in school.

31.

David M

02:01

A bit younger than me.

Cerberus

What did you think?

David M

I figured about my own age.

I'm 38

Cerberus

I suppose that is a compliment hehe.

I knew that.

For some reason, I remember ages well enough.

They have meaning.

I have seen pictures of Tom, Kit, Mr Shiny, Robusto, Reg, and a few others, over the years.

And Ed, of course.

And Bradd.

David M

I'm usually on the other side of the camera.

Cerberus

Yeah I don't have many pictures of myself either.

You sort of have to make a conscious effort to acquire pictures of yourself. Unless they are given to you.

David M

02:06

Cerberus

Nice.

Much like I imagined you hehe.

David M

My son sitting on my back.

Cerberus

Aww so cute!

I loved doing that with my father.

David M

I assume you to be the cat . . .

Cerberus

Mew!

David M

02:09

Were you here for photo sharing night?

dmisita.com/bestof/index.html

Some of my photo work.

Cerberus

Oh cool.

No, I missed that.

David M

He's a friend of mine in Paris.

Cerberus

Cool.

Is that your daughter I see in the pictures?

And your wife?

David M

My son and my daughter.

They're twins.

Cerberus

Cute.

David M

02:15

My wife isn't in any of them.

Cerberus

Ah OK.

I saw a woman.

My brother and I.

He was a bit fat then.

David M

Wife

Cerberus

Aww I like her already.

Or perhaps she's really good at looking friendly in pictures.

David M

@Cerberus That

Cerberus

Hehe.

David M

02:19

She's a good friend.

And, single. I cannot understand why.

Cerberus

Ah, OK.

There could be many reasons.

She could be critical? In no hurry?

David M

She is a bit critical.

But, she's gorgeous.

Cerberus

How old is she?

David M

This picture does no justice.

31

32?

Cerberus

Ah, then she is still young.

David M

02:21

I can't remember.

Yes.

Cerberus

I have plenty of gorgeous female friends who are single.

And even more male ones.

David M

@Cerberus That is more normal.

Cerberus

Yeah.

Women usually want babies by 35 or when they're nearly 40.

David M

One of my nurses.

@Cerberus Yes.

My friend wants to find someone and marry. She just doesn't like anyone she meets.

Cerberus

Cool clair-obscur.

David M

02:24

But, she won't go out with anyone I offer.

Cerberus

Hmm.

Why not?

David M

Chiaroscurro

Cerberus

That's the Italian name, yes.

For some reason, we usually use the French name.

David M

Really?

Hmmm

I guess the French did invent the art of photography . . .

Cerberus

It's in most books about art history.

David M

02:25

Most of my photo books call it Chiaroscurro.

Cerberus

We say clair-obscur usually when describing Rembrandt.

To me, it is mainly a term from painting?

David M

I will admit something . . . I am a bit of a philistine about art. I appreciate photography, and some sculpture and painting. But, I detest Monet.

!!wiki chiaroscurro

Still sleeping.

Chiaroscuro

Chiaroscuro (; ; Italian for light-dark) in art is the use of strong contrasts between light and dark, usually bold contrasts affecting a whole composition. It is a technical term used by artists and art historians for the use of contrasts of light to achieve a sense of volume in modelling three-dimensional objects and figures. Similar effects in cinema and photography also are called chiaroscuro. Further related specialized uses of the term include chiaroscuro woodcut, for coloured woodcuts printed with different blocks, each using a different coloured ink; and chiaroscuro drawing f...

Oddly, clair-obscur redirects there.

Cerberus

Apparently, the Italian is more common in English.

David M

It would seem.

Cerberus

The interwiki link points here:

Clair-obscur (schilderkunst)

Clair-obscur (Italiaans: chiaroscuro, Duits: Helldunkel) is een techniek uit de schilderkunst, film en fotografie waarbij de licht-donkercontrasten sterker worden uitgebeeld dan ze in werkelijkheid vaak zijn. Er wordt weinig gebruikgemaakt van de zogenaamde middentonen. Hiermee wordt een dramatisch effect bereikt, waarmee driedimensionale vormen worden geaccentueerd. Bij clair-obscur is de achtergrond donker en de voorgrond licht. De lichtbron zelf is meestal niet duidelijk aanwijsbaar; het zou de zon kunnen zijn, of een kaarsvlam. De techniek is ontstaan in de renaissance en toegepa...

Why do you detest Monet specifically?

Too...sweet?

David M

02:32

Too . . . blah.

I just don't see the genius in it.

He painted at different times of day.

I guess I more detest the fact that his work is plastered on every college dorm room wall as almost the McDonald's of the art world.

Cerberus

Haha.

David M

@Cerberus It makes me happy that I understand some of this.

Cerberus

@DavidM Yeah, it is easy to consume.

@DavidM Congrats!

Of all languages, Frisian is closest to English, then Dutch, they say.

David M

By knowing some of the terminology, cognates, etc. I can suss out the meaning.

@Cerberus Yes, I've heard that.

Cerberus

Languages are fun!

David M

02:38

They are.

I wish I could keep French and Portuguese in my head,

I cannot.

Cerberus

As in, memorise the grammar and vocabulary?

David M

As in understand and speak.

Beyond the very basic.

Jasper Loy

@Cerberus Who speaks Frisian?

Cerberus

Ah.

David M

@JasperLoy A bunch of Frisians . . .

Cerberus

02:40

Yes, I find French and Portuguese relatively hard to understand, for some reason (though not to speak, specifically).

David M

!!define frisian

She's still sleeping.

Jasper Loy

@cerberus Did you say that German is closer to English than French is to English?

Cerberus

@JasperLoy Hello. People in Friesland, which is a province of the Netherlands.

David M

Frisian languages

The Frisian languages are a closely related group of Germanic languages, spoken by about 500,000 members of Frisian ethnic groups, who live on the southern fringes of the North Sea in the Netherlands, Germany and Denmark. The Frisian dialects are close living languages to English, after Scots. However, modern English and Frisian are mostly unintelligible to each other. Frisian languages bear similarities to Low German, Dutch (from which many Frisian words have been borrowed), and Danish. Additional shared linguistic characteristics between the Great Yarmouth area, Friesland, and Denmark...

Cerberus

@JasperLoy Yes, absolutely: German and English are Germanic languages, while French is not.

David M

02:41

@Cerberus I second that.

Although English is historically polluted by French due to the Norman influence.

Cerberus

Of course.

So in academic articles, most of the words are probably Romance (though not the grammar).

David M

My issue with French is that I learned it from Rosetta Stone before a trip to France. I spoke it well enough while I was there for the week. And, then promptly never practiced it again.

Jasper Loy

@DavidM Who is Rosetta Stone?

David M

Portuguese I have ample opportunity to practice, but I didn't have time to learn it. I started around when my children were born.

@JasperLoy The software . . .

Cerberus

@JasperLoy Haha nice question.

David M

02:44

I assume you're making a joke.

Jasper Loy

@Cerberus I have very little knowledge of the mundane world.

@DavidM No, I am not.

Cerberus

@DavidM You should watch a French film with subtitles, read a French comic book...

David M

Rosetta Stone (software)

Rosetta Stone is proprietary computer-assisted language learning (CALL) software published by Rosetta Stone Inc. The software uses images, text, sound, and video to teach words and grammar by spaced repetition, without translation. Rosetta Stone calls their approach Dynamic Immersion (a term which they have trademarked). The software's title and logo allude to the Rosetta Stone, an ancient stone slab on which the Decree of Memphis is inscribed in three writing systems. Dynamic Immersion In a Rosetta Stone exercise, the student pairs sound or text to one of several images. The number of ...

@Cerberus I have . . . I just had less interest than Italian and Spanish.

Cerberus

@JasperLoy The Stone of Rosetta is a famous monument of antiquity which helped decipher Egyptian hieroglyphs.

Rosetta Stone

The Rosetta Stone is a Ptolemaic age granodiorite stele inscribed with a decree issued at Memphis in 196 BC on behalf of King Ptolemy V. The decree appears in three scripts: the upper text is Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs, the middle portion Demotic script, and the lowest Ancient Greek. Because it presents essentially the same text in all three scripts (with some minor differences among them), it provided the key to the modern understanding of Egyptian hieroglyphs. Although it is believed to have originally been displayed within a temple, possibly at nearby Sais, the stone was probab...

@DavidM Oh, well, you can't learn everything.

David M

Italian I speak with my relatives in Italy. So, I was motivated.

Cerberus

02:46

It is better to learn one language well than two not so well, perhaps?

David M

Spanish I speak by necessity because it is a common second language in America. So, I speak it frequently with patients.

Cerberus

Ah, OK.

David M

Portuguese would be helpful, but the Brazilian dialect and Portuguese are too different, and I really need to know both to be effective.

Cerberus

So the goal is talking to people, not reading?

David M

We have a large population of both in this part of America. But, many of them (especially the Portuguese) understand Spanish well. And, I understand them speaking Portuguese if they speak slowly.

@Cerberus For the most part.

Cerberus

02:48

OK.

David M

I mostly write in Italian because I converse via email a lot.

Cerberus

Right.

I don't use languages other than English and Dutch much for actually talking to people.

David M

When I was in Rome for two straight weeks, I could speak quite well.

But it waxes and wanes.

Cerberus

So the way you learn your languages must be quite different.

David M

If I lived in Europe, I would likely speak 5 languages easily.

I am adept at picking them up with practice.

Jasper Loy

02:49

What teach yourself book do you recommend me for learning German?

Cerberus

I'm sure.

David M

@JasperLoy Book? Hard to say.

Cerberus

I have no idea either.

David M

I like Rosetta Stone software. Pimsleur also has a really good reputation.

pimsleur.com

If you truly want to learn a language, the best thing to do is listen to native speakers.

Both methods feature that.

Pimsleur focuses on not learning grammar or writing.

Rosetta Stone does reading, writing, speaking, and grammar all together.

I was taught Spanish in school in a similar manner to the Pimsleur approach.

As such, I speak it quite fluently, but I sound like a well educated 2nd grader in terms of grammar.

Cerberus

Haha.

It all depends on what you need it for.

By "learn a language", you focus on speaking.

And in particular on things like getting your intentions across in a conversation?

David M

02:56

Exactly.

Cerberus

Right.

David M

I speak both Italian and Spanish at a level where people understand me even if I don't know the proper conjugation or vocabulary.

Cerberus

Must be handy.

David M

@Cerberus It can be . . .

Cerberus

Vocabulary is usually my problem.

David M

02:58

@Cerberus It is for everyone.

That part is rote memorization.

Cerberus

I can intuitively grasp most of the grammar of Portuguese and Spanish, or at least enough to understand it.

Yeah.

David M

For me, Portuguese is too close to Spanish. And, I lapse back and forth.

Italian is just different enough . . .

And, my motivation to speak it is greater.

My desire to speak Portuguese is out of annoyance.

Cerberus

Haha aww.

David M

Finding someone to translate irritates me.

Cerberus

Naturally.

David M

03:00

And, the translators usually are terrible.

Cerberus

Really?

David M

I understand Portuguese well enough to know.

Cerberus

Who are they?

David M

They're not professionals. They're bi-lingual people who work at the hospital, or friends and relatives of the patients, etc.

When we use professionals, they're OK, but it is a whole process involving dual phones, etc.

At this point, I can interview and consent a patient in Spanish for a procedure at about 1.25 x the speed I can in English. Which I think is pretty good.

A translator makes the process take 3x longer.

►

Totally off topic. I just LOVE this series.

Cerberus

@DavidM That's pretty good. It works.

David M

03:08

I should clarify . . . 1.25 x as long, not as fast.

Cerberus

Yeah I got that.

@DavidM Cool series.

David M

@Cerberus If you love photography its really interesting.

Cerberus

I didn't know the first photographs were so durable.

David M

Yes.

Cerberus

Too bad they don't pronounce Daguerre properly hehe.

David M

03:18

Niépce was the true inventor of photography . . .

Cerberus

Right, he was mentioned.

> Physical training, even without weight loss, improves sleep apnea.

I didn't know this.

But I suppose physical training improves almost anything...

David M

True

I think that even without weight loss it improves the airway function by causing the diaphragm to get stronger, etc.

Cerberus

Right.

So in some cases this strengthening of the diaphragm, chest muscles, and whatnot might be enough to allow someone to breathe?

It probably depends on the kind of apnea?

David M

@Cerberus Probably.

@Cerberus And, definitely

Cerberus

If your throat is completely blocked, I imagine in many cases increased suction power will not help?

David M

03:28

@Cerberus True

Cerberus

But it may help against hypopnea?

David M

@Cerberus I believe so

Cerberus

Right.

> Also being studied are exercises of the muscles around the mouth and throat through activities such as playing the didgeridoo.

This sounds almost like an April's Fool joke...

Especially the specific instrument.

David M

Are you familiar with one?

It's a neat sound.

!!wiki didgeridoo

Cerberus

I have seen it in videos.

David M

03:31

Still asleep

Cerberus

Hah, you are already addicted to the bot.

David M

LOL

Cerberus

Feels like an extension of your body is missing?

David M

It's just so easy

Didgeridoo

The didgeridoo () (also known as a didjeridu) is a wind instrument developed by Indigenous Australians of northern Australia around 1,500 years ago and still in widespread use today both in Australia and around the world. It is sometimes described as a natural wooden trumpet or "drone pipe". Musicologists classify it as a brass aerophone. There are no reliable sources stating the didgeridoo's exact age. Archaeological studies of rock art in Northern Australia suggest that the people of the Kakadu region of the Northern Territory have been using the didgeridoo for less than 1,000 years...

Cerberus

It's kind of cool.

Cerberus

03:43

Hmm looks like it's bed time for me.

Or past it.

David M

Good night!

Cerberus

Grazie!

David M

We'll chat soon.

Cerberus

You too, eventually.

David M

Ciao, a presto.

Cerberus

03:44

We shall!

A presto.

poof

A̷n̷d̷y̷

05:05

Hello!

Jasper Loy

09:50

Hi @medica

medica

@JasperLoy Hey Jasper! I didn't even know I had this window open till I heard your ping. How are you?

Jasper Loy

@medica Not too good. Trying to get better from my OCD by sorting out my thoughts.

medica

@JasperLoy Hm, what are the thoughts that are bothering you tonight (?) if you want to answer. Don't have to.

Jasper Loy

Well, it's too complicated to type here, so I shan't.

I see you are on your way to getting 20k.

medica

Fair enough. OCD is hard. I used to struggle with it, too.

Jasper Loy

09:54

It used to be much easier to earn rep on ELU.

medica

and two of my kids 'inherited it'

Jasper Loy

Ah, you have 2 kids?

medica

Yeah, I saw you deleted a fine answer.

4, actually.

Jasper Loy

I have 0. Still single and available, lol.

medica

I was sorry you deleted your answer before I could up vote you. :(

Jasper Loy

09:55

Kit Fox, JS Bangs, and Mr Shiny each have 2 kids as well.

medica

but you're young?

Jasper Loy

Hehe, I am almost 33.

Once you're 30 you're old.

medica

still yound enough. Men are lucky that way.

Jasper Loy

Maybe I will end up with a widow or divorcee in future, lol.

medica

Hey, that's ok, right? A good partner is hard to find.

Jasper Loy

09:57

Yeah. I love to lol, it's my chat habit.

medica

:)

I like smiles and lols.

Jasper Loy

4 kids is a LOT.

medica

sometimes I thought so; now that theyre all married, I wish I'd had more.

selfish, but true.

Jasper Loy

Ah, that gives away your age a bit... I am guessing you must be 60...

medica

would hve probably gone bonkers tho.

You are mighty close, Jasper. ;)

But my oldest is only 26

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…