English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

RegDwigнt

21:00

On any new question, there's always a chance of disagreement and breaking eggs to make an omelette.

But nobody forces you to deal with three-hour old questions.

That's what the cleanup team is there for.

If you look behind the scenes or under the hood of almost anything, it's always messy and greasy and stinky. Everybody poops.

n11

drive.google.com/… that's a weird usage of space (gonna try to reshape it)

Cerberus

gasp

@RegDwigнt That's a lie.

Beautiful maidens do not poop.

RegDwigнt

Yeah and dogs with three heads don't have three assholes. I'll drink to that.

drinks

Cerberus

!

How dare you.

What impudence!

RegDwigнt

drinks again

Cerberus

21:03

It is true that our site has a lot of great information for Googlers.

RegDwigнt

dares

Cerberus

Does?

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus and that is where 95%+ of our traffic comes from.

Cerberus

Not from us?

n11

Cerberus

21:05

Last week I was talking to my colleague about some philosophical issue, and he Googled it. Guess what he found? A question on phil.se. And guess who was visible in the margin as being present in the chat room?

@n11 Hey I'm not that ugly!

skullpatrol

!!youtube who let the dogs out?

Cerberus

It's asleep.

RegDwigнt

For any closed question by a newbie, only twenty people ever notice the comments underneath. It's a fact, look at the views. And those views are mostly from ourselves. During that time, ten thousand people look at older stuff that is all shiny and nice.

Cerberus

Sure.

So...

skullpatrol

You were in the Phil.se chat room? @cerberus

n11

21:07

we could really use extension-based bots, it would save the need to run a bot on a server (which apparently needs a browser window opened, etc..)

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus So: we see the filth, but that is our job. So: complaining about the filth is complaining about our job.

Cerberus

@skullpatrol I am.

skullpatrol

Icic

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt Maybe...

RegDwigнt

And since we are not being paid, we are free to walk away from that job just like the hundreds of thousands of other people on that day.

Cerberus

21:08

I'm sorry, is this about the fabled Meta-question that I never read?

Yes, walking away is what I like to do.

RegDwigнt

Oh. Yes. I thought that was clear.

Cerberus

Perhaps it was.

> Everyone makes mistakes. There's hardly anyone out there who can claim a misspelling-free existence. And government employees -- even highly-trained analysts and agents charged with protecting national security -- are no different. Mistakes will be made. Let he who is without sin be the pedantic ass casting stones in the comments below, etc.

That's a nice climax.

skullpatrol

Some of the new site proposals are strange like mental fitness.SE :/

n11

Area 51

RegDwigнt

Anyway. The thing is, we did have the Summer of Love, and we did have the Christmas Truce on top of it, and yet here are the results, and people are still complaining. So how will getting more of the same help? How is another Summer of Love a solution?

I am all for a Summer of Love, or even an Eternity, but it has to be mutual. Them be nice and don't call my rubbish question rubbish, but then perhaps how about me be nice as well and just not post it in return?

Or, you know, perhaps I could spell English correctly for a change.

n11

21:15

would you put Name Firstname in title of a resume or Firstname Name (< prefer this)?

that's like date format, none can agree

RegDwigнt

That's a question of style. I would do whatever is required in the particular situation/context.

Also, what if I am Chinese or Korean?

Or Spanish? Or Russian?

The only goal can be to be clearly understood.

Cerberus

6 hours ago, by Cerberus

> About this Add-on
Comment Snob filters out undesirable comments from the Web. It comes with support for YouTube by default, but you can add support for many other sites by installing Comment Snob rules. For each rule that you install, you can choose from the following filtering parameters:

Number of spelling mistakes
All capital letters
No capital letters
Doesn't start with a capital letter
Excessive punctuation (!!!! ????)
Excessive capitalization
Profanity
Filtering on custom words and phrases

RegDwigнt

If I can understand what's the name and what's the surname, the order is ultimately irrelevant.

n11

yes but John Mike, you wouldn't know the first name and name, but in my case it's not confusing

RegDwigнt

@n11 precisely. So how would saying Mike John instead help?

It is ambiguous every which way you look at it.

So the order is irrelevant again.

Alraxite

21:18

@Cerberus The 'doesn't start with a capital letter' one is funny.

n11

indeed :)

Cerberus

@Alraxite Funny, perhaps, but effective!

Who wants to read posts by people who can't start a sentence with a proper capital?

RegDwigнt

So what the French do, for example, is they put the surname in all capitals. John MIKE.

Cerberus

Present company excepted, of course.

Alraxite

yeah.

I mean, Yeah.

n11

21:19

'spelling mistakes' is really many orders of magnitude in front of punctuation/capitals for me

Cerberus

!!!

RegDwigнt

Actually, that's what the Olympic Games do, too.

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus they forgot multiple vowels imo.

Alraxite

Um, actually, yeah.

RegDwigнt

Possibly football as well, but I'm not sure.

Cerberus

21:20

@JohanLarsson Hey!! Dutch is allowed!

Johan Larsson

yeah, proper use is np

RegDwigнt

Nederlands is een prachtige taal.

Cerberus

Thanks!!

Russisch ook.

RegDwigнt

That must be the first time ever you said "thanks" in reply to "prachtig".

Johan Larsson

some people write multiple vowels for some reason, fail to come up with an exampe though

RegDwigнt

21:21

Possibly with bleeding ears, but still.

Cerberus

Could be!1!

Johan Larsson

profanity is rarely a problem ime

Cerberus

Well, in that context it is a bit...exaggerated, but it is used correctly.

@JohanLarsson Nooo.

RegDwigнt

@JohanLarsson you mean like FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

Cerberus

Or that!

to me imporper, punctiation or spelling or capitalisation is a bit like )wrong brackets)

RegDwigнt

21:22

Well, wrong brackets are a subset of improper punctuation.

Y U no make sense.

Oh, sneaky edit.

Cerberus

I'm not sure I would count brackets as punctuation.

RegDwigнt

Still paradoxonial.

@Cerberus who cares if you are sure.

Jasper Loy

@Cerberus I certainly do.

Cerberus

I care.

RegDwigнt

Well.

Then just call them Susan.

Cerberus

21:23

Punctuation is about punctus.

RegDwigнt

No you.

Cerberus

Full stop, colon, semicolon, comma, exclamation mark, question mark.

Those are the canonical marks of punctuation.

RegDwigнt

And a slash is a word, eh?

Cerberus

It is a different mark.

Dutch has different words as well, interpunctie and leestekens.

"Reading marks".

Johan Larsson

@RegDwigнt fffuu is ok cos rage guy :)

Alraxite

21:25

Wikipedia seems to include brackets as punctuation.

RegDwigнt

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus i almost stopped using the shift key :)

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus so that is the root of your confusion.

Cerberus

What does Wikipedia know?

Johan Larsson

and never understood proper use of comma

Cerberus

21:26

@RegDwigнt There is no confusion. Ask Fowler, for example.

tchrist

@RegDwigнt Looks right to me.

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson Relearn it!

RegDwigнt

Cerberus

Not any reading aid is a mark of punctuation.

RegDwigнt

Dutch Wikipedia clearly says that Interpunctie == Leestekens.

Cerberus

21:27

Yes, leestekens.

RegDwigнt

Interpunctie

Interpunctie is het gebruik van leestekens (punten, komma's enzovoort) in een tekst. De benaming interpunctie stamt uit de zestiende eeuw en is afgeleid uit het Latijn (inter = tussen; punctus = punt). Aanvankelijk gaf ze de manier aan, waarop in het Hebreeuws de klinkers werden aangeduid. In het Hebreeuws worden alleen de medeklinkers geschreven, de waarde van de klinkers wordt aangegeven door puntjes onder de medeklinkers. Pas tussen 1650 en 1750 evolueert de betekenis van het woord 'interpunctie' naar zijn huidige waarde. Interpunctie is van belang voor het interpreteren van de tekst. ...

@Cerberus yes, everything is leestekens including full stops and commas and everything you listed as not leestekens.

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus cant you work on your permissiveness instead?

Alraxite

heh, under 'punctuation in english' it says, AE or traditional english and BE or logical english

Cerberus

Well, Wikipedia is not always right, and, in this case, it does not use the traditional definition.

Alraxite

well, actually punctuation

not english

RegDwigнt

21:28

@Cerberus traditional definitions are for Sarah Palins. This is the 21st century.

Cerberus

@Alraxite Huh?

Alraxite

Punctuation

Punctuation is "the use of spacing, conventional signs, and certain typographical devices as aids to the understanding and correct reading, both silently and aloud, of handwritten and printed texts."Encyclopaedia Britannica Another description is: "The practice, action, or system of inserting points or other small marks into texts, in order to aid interpretation; division of text into sentences, clauses, etc., by means of such marks."Oxford English Dictionary, definition 2a. In written English, punctuation is vital to disambiguate the meaning of sentences. For example: "woman, witho...

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson I'm trying, but it is like...giving birth to a sea urchin.

Alraxite

@Cerberus The 'punctuation in english' section

RegDwigнt

Seriously though, I fail to see how a quotation mark or a bracket is fundamentally different, or indeed different at all, from a comma or a period.

Cerberus

21:29

@RegDwigнt How is Palin in any sense, way, or shape traditional?

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus obviously you've never met Palin.

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt It is mostly a matter of convention.

RegDwigнt

Not Michael Palin, I said. Sarah.

@Cerberus which? What?

tchrist

Punctuation and symbols are distinct.

RegDwigнt

I am really trying to understand here.

Jasper Loy

21:29

I am thinking of whether I should retire, lol.

tchrist

Conceptually.

Cerberus

Palin is as nouveau riche and uninitiated in proper education as they come.

RegDwigнt

@tchrist yes, symbols are different. An alpha is a symbol. It is not punctuation.

tchrist

In practice, there is some debate and vacillations.

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt That. Conventionally, the punctus are the symbols I mentioned.

tchrist

21:30

Well, I would thinking of symbols like ¶ and §.

Cerberus

A full period is constructed by using those symbols.

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus conventionally, nothing much exists at all. All of our maths is like two hundred years old. All of our musical notation, too.

tchrist

@Cerberus No idea what that means.

RegDwigнt

So that is not an argument.

Cerberus

All I am saying is that, traditionally, only those marks I mentioned are considered punctuation. It was not an argument to prove anything. Use whichever definition you prefer for yourself.

RegDwigнt

21:32

If it walks like a punctuation and quaks like a punctuation, then it is not a duck.

Matt Эллен

ducks

RegDwigнt

Matt is posting from his iPhone again.

Cerberus

> 12. a sentence, especially a well-balanced, impressive sentence: the stately periods of Churchill.

Matt Эллен

lol

RegDwigнt

Feb 9 '11 at 21:45, by Kosmonaut

My officemate is Russian and he swears constantly, and I always know if he is IM'ing me from his iPhone because suddenly he will use the word "ducker".

Cerberus

21:33

And this is even a bastardised "definition" of what a full period is about.

Matt Эллен

the iPhone again is the next gen iPhone. The same as all the others, and more expensive

RegDwigнt

Full periods are too full of themselves.

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt Matt would never betray us by buying Crapple devices!

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus well how else would he surf Fecebook?

Cerberus

> "Period" III. In Grammar, Rhetoric, Music, etc.

10. a. A complete sentence. (Cf. Aristotle Rhet. iii. ix.) Usually applied to a sentence consisting of several clauses, grammatically connected, and rhetorically constructed. Hence, in pl., rhetorical or grammatical language.

[1533 More Apol. xiv. 103b, A very colde skuse to a man lerned that wyll way the hole periodus togyther.] 1579 E. K. in Spenser's Sheph. Kal. Ep. to Harvey, The whole Periode and compasse of speache so delightsome for the roundnesse, and so graue for the straungenesse. 1593 Nashe Four Lett. Confut. 82, I know two…

tchrist

21:35

@RegDwigнt Sometimes they are, I suppose, such as with ⍶, but normally they’re just letters. Or did you mean aleph not alpha? There we have both the symbol ℵ and the letter א.

Cerberus

OMG I feel like Tchrist now, posting random OED entries.

@RegDwigнt He is a Fandroid, dammit!

Alraxite

So.... how do we wake up the bot?

tchrist

double bang it i imagine

Alraxite

I can confirm that saying WakeUP to the bot doesn't work.

Matt Эллен

!!refresh

!!hello?

Cerberus

21:40

> The Intellectual Property Owners Education Foundation has helped create a special new "IP patch" for the Girl Scouts.

Through earning the patch girls learn about the importance of the intellectual property system to their lives and to local and national economies. “As STEM fields become increasingly popular, it is important that we teach young people about the incentives and protections available to them through the patent system. IPO Education Foundation is excited about the opportunity to work with the GSCNC and the USPTO to bring the patent system to girls through the IP patch," said …

RegDwigнt

@Alraxite In Krim, the bot wakes up you!

Matt Эллен

@Alraxite no idea. we'll have to hope @KitFox see's the bot sleeping

and can do something about it

RegDwigнt

Like, whistling and looking the other way.

Matt Эллен

:D

Jasper Loy

@matt Boo!

RegDwigнt

21:41

Which reminds me, I read a strange sentence earlier today on Spiegel Online. Their English section, that is.

Matt Эллен

hi @Jasper

tchrist

@RegDwigнt Curious thing for you to read.

Jasper Loy

@MattЭллен Now that I have 3k on math and 2k on eng, it is time to retire, lol.

RegDwigнt

> Rotaru's boss has transformed him into a sort of poorly dressed statue, one that spends eight hours a day doing nothing but stand at the train station and lie.

See if anyone else stumbles and falls.

tchrist

heh

Matt Эллен

21:42

@JasperLoy I think you need to get to 3k on English

@RegDwigнt I have

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt Hmm I think it works, standing is not compulsory.

RegDwigнt

It is not compulsory. It is better.

Matt Эллен

oh, I misread it a hundred times

RegDwigнt

And it's really better once you arrive at lie.

Cerberus

I'm not sure.

Matt Эллен

21:43

I was expecting standing, so that's what I read

Cerberus

I'm afraid neither meaning of lie makes sense to me without context.

n11

- ‒ – — ―

RegDwigнt

Well I'm certain it's been translated by a native speaker. That's not the point.

tchrist

What seems to be the question about it?

RegDwigнt

The point is, how many out of a 1000 native speakers would translate it likewise.

Matt Эллен

21:44

@Cerberus all he does is stand in the train station and lie. (I'm assuming the "speak falsehood" meaning)

Cerberus

Unless you hold the view that the infinitive should be the default after nothing but.

Matt Эллен

1 min ago, by Matt Эллен

I was expecting standing, so that's what I read

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Okay, but what is the lying about? It doesn't make much sense without context.

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus I do not hold any views. I just know that all you do is stand, but all you're doing is standing.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus oh, sure, that's not stated. I assume whatever his boss tells him to

tchrist

21:46

> doing nothing but stand at the train station and tell lies.
doing nothing but stand at the train station telling lies.
doing nothing but standing around at the train station telling lies.

RegDwigнt

And I only know that from native speakers, because that's where I got my Englishes from.

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt That is different. It is specifically about do nothing but.

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus but it is not do nothing but. It is doing nothing but.

Cerberus

Yes, but that's not what I mean.

The expression do(ing) nothing but could be special.

RegDwigнt

Nothing but never entered the building. You can recast.

All he does is stand. All he's doing is standing.

Matt Эллен

21:47

yeah

tchrist

> one that does nothing but stand around at the train station telling lies eight hours a day.

@RegDwigнt Yes.

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt I feel some of the grammatical attraction, but I think perhaps the complement to do nothing but should be irrespective of the form of the verb that comes before.

RegDwigнt

Well, we can agree that that much is true of past tense.

All he did was stood is a no-no.

Cerberus

I would rather not look at different constructions.

RegDwigнt

Then don't.

Cerberus

21:50

That is x is y. It's different.

RegDwigнt

Or are you suggesting "he did nothing but stood" is a possibility?

Cerberus

Of course not.

RegDwigнt

Of course not.

Cerberus

I am suggesting perhaps it should always be an infinitive regardless of what comes before.

My argument is as follows.

RegDwigнt

Well, that's my question.

Cerberus

21:51

> She did nothing but curse at the soldiers.

How can we explain the infinitive here?

I can't explain it.

RegDwigнt

Hopefully not with Latin.

tchrist

> She was doing nothing but cursing at the soldiers.

Cerberus

So one could say it is a fixed construction: nothing but is followed by an infinitive always.

RegDwigнt

@tchrist That would've been my next line.

tchrist

> She did but curse at the soldiers.

> She but did curse the soldiers.

RegDwigнt

21:52

@Cerberus then why is it not fixed in my head? Or tchrist's or Matt's?

This is an interesting question.

tchrist

@Cerberus Not a very grammatical one.

Cerberus

All I'm saying is that it is complicated, irregular.

tchrist

Nor, I believe, real.

Cerberus

The rule "doing should be followed by standing" is not satisfactory.

RegDwigнt

We shall save this one up for the next Winter Bash.

Obviously it isn't, otherwise the translation, presumably by a native speaker, wouldn't exist.

Cerberus

21:53

Even though I, too, would be inclined to write a gerund there, as I said.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus when I read it first, without expectation, I read standing. I don't see how your rule could be correct. My reflex was to expect the -ing form

RegDwigнt

Though of course there's the possibility that it's an editing error.

What's it's called anyway.

We had a question on that.

An error that results from sloppy editing.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Sometimes our reflexes (which in this case was also my reflex) result in deceptively simple (and wrong) rules.

RegDwigнt

Oh but the rules are written down reflexes.

There are no rules other than the ones we make.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus I don't buy that here

Cerberus

21:55

I wouldn't say that. This is not linguistics, but style.

RegDwigнt

You could buy some LEGO from me instead.

Cerberus

2 mins ago, by Cerberus

The rule "doing should be followed by standing" is not satisfactory.

RegDwigнt

Actually, no. You couldn't.

Cerberus

That is basically all I had to say.

Matt Эллен

:D

RegDwigнt

21:55

I don't sell that here.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus that's fair enough

tchrist

> And yet he still was doing nothing but kissing her. What was wrong with him? Or maybe it was something wrong with her? Maybe he'd been telling the truth. Maybe all he really wanted from her was a kiss or two.

> I was worn out with doing nothing but drinking and drugging each and every day. After the wrecks and that stabbing incident, the wake-up calls were just too big to ignore and it was time to go.

> I ain't the one. Forty-five dollars don't seem like much for four hours of work, but I' m saying ... I mean, I ain't doing nothing but sitting right there plus hitting. I'm safe!

> Chuco was in the ring by now, but Billy wasn't doing nothing but staring at the mat and sweating. "Hello, anybody home?" Ruben yelled up at Billy. "What's wrong with you? You losing your concentration. You gonna lose the fight.

RegDwigнt

Anyway, for the record, the full article is here Beggars, Inc.: Romanians Duped into Panhandling in Germany. Translated by one Christopher Sultan. Could be any nationality, really.

tchrist

> .. what's left of my life until I go and look for my child. . . . I'll just go on as I am,' she said. 'Doing nothing but sitting out on this veranda all day or down in that damp cave of a room feeling sorry for myself and blaming everyone and everything ...

Cerberus

That is hardly high style.

@RegDwigнt Why read it in English?

RegDwigнt

21:58

@Cerberus That's the typical remark of anyone who doesn't like the style. :P

Matt Эллен

> Since joining, though, he's had one thing in mind: leaving the job as quickly as possible.

RegDwigнt

Your gravatar is hardly high style.

Matt Эллен

also questionable

Cerberus

@tchrist google.com/…

Matt Эллен

ok, maybe not

tchrist

21:59

> Doing nothing but following it literally (and it's debatable whether being merely literal is really even possible) is just another choice of creating.
I flip to a picture of some gold hills that look just like a desert, and then to a whole page of fog, and then comes an emerald-blue sea with a boat sitting out in the middle of it, just sitting there, doing nothing but floating.
In the Manhasset bar where Moehringer centers his story, doing nothing but drinking means men running from their problems, looking for distractions, fantasizing about women, and being lost boys. Not all men ar…

Cerberus

Results for "doing nothing but sit".

RegDwigнt

@MattЭллен well, that's just a gerund. You need a noun there cos you already promised one thing.

Matt Эллен

I was uncomfortable with the leaving

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt But, in this case, the truth.

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus there is no such thing as "truth" in "style".

tchrist

21:59

@Cerberus Google yourself.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…