English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Jasper Loy

19:00

0

My son was marked down for the following sentence: "Helpful means helping other people." The error was with means, the teacher corrected to means'. Is this correct? Keep in mind he is in 3rd grade. Thanks for the help!!

possessive

Mitch

@RegDwigнt I figured that part out, but it doesn't seem like the pluperfect subjunctive is involved.

Jasper Loy

We should not take this question seriously, considering the title and body are different, lol.

KitFox

@MετάEd Oh. See. Because I was thinking that you meant where is he when it's six years from now.

MετάEd

This is why they don't let me write test problems.

KitFox

It's not your fault. I'm an engineer.

Jasper Loy

19:04

Geezis, I just got it.

ROFLMAO.

Mitch

Did you do the math?

Jasper Loy

Yes, but the problem is that age is not non-negative here.

oerkelens

19:18

I know Amanda. That helps

Jasper Loy

@oerkelens Are you her husband?

oerkelens

If I were, would I be chatting?

And if that would be the case

Should I inform you guys?

MrHen

19:33

-3

Q: Pedantic tw*t - correct usage

I have two questions: Do the members of this forum think that the number of hoops that one needs to jump through to post here is counter-productive to the exploration of the subject at hand? Can the words "Pedantic twat" be used to accurately describe any of the moderators here? I have found on...

discussion

It took a lot of resistence to avoid answering with, "If the hoops turned a user like you away then we have just the right amount." :P

Also, my new longest wait for an answer payoff:

0

A: What's the meaning of "pence" in this context?

I contacted the author of the quoted example and this is the response I got (emphasis mine): In this context it's supposed to be analogous to "guide" or "direct". The point of my argument being that antidepressants increase motivation for severely depressed. Unfortunately that motivation can ...

Finally got a response from that guy.

Matt Эллен

@MετάEd In the future, fighting machines.

@MrHen nice

Jasper Loy

@MattЭллен I remember you wrote to OED, lol.

Sawarnik

Oh, @JasperLoy is active here too.

MrHen

@MattЭллен Yeah, I decided not to press for more details on how "pence" is used in other contexts but it was nice to hear an answer. :)

Matt Эллен

@JasperLoy I did. writing to people who know an answer is a good way to find stuff out

MrHen

19:43

@MattЭллен Agreed.

oerkelens

needs coffee

I just read "@MattЭллен I remember you wrote the OED, lol."

Matt Эллен

lol

I also used the power of email here:

2

A: Can I transfer saves between devices?

I emailed Square Enix mobile support and this is what they said: You need to download the app again after changing devices. Save data is also stored in the app itself and will be lost in the process, so you will have to restart the game from the beginning. So it looks like there isn't an o...

Jasper Loy

@oerkelens lol

MετάEd

@MattЭллен True.

oerkelens

But indeed, contacting someone who has answers is not often a very bad idea.

MετάEd

19:45

@KitFox No, it is my fault. I too am an engineer.

oerkelens

There are exceptions of course

Matt Эллен

yes, you shouldn't tell a murderer your address, just to find out where they've hidden the bodies

oerkelens

I was thinking of walking into a biker's bar and asking whose bike it was you just ran over.

Matt Эллен

lol

that, too, would be a mistake

oerkelens

mmm

Jasper Loy

19:47

@oerkelens whose

oerkelens

Rolling on the floor, you might

Laughing out loud, I seriously doubt it

@JasperLoy where? O-)

Jasper Loy

@oerkelens In the message history, lol.

oerkelens

That is a milder variation. Walking into a linguists' convention, asking "who's car did I just scratched?"

Jasper Loy

@oerkelens whose

oerkelens

no

you miss the joke :P

Jasper Loy

19:49

OIC.

oerkelens

@JasperLoy Organization of the Islamic Conference?

Matt Эллен

Ostriches In Clogs

Jasper Loy

@oerkelens I just remembered you are the guy I spoke to a few days ago.

oerkelens

mmmm

that good or bad? :P

Jasper Loy

Neutral.

oerkelens

19:51

:)

Well, I didn't run over your bike, and I didn't scratch your car

Jasper Loy

The most beautiful girl I have seen is getting married in a few days to another guy.

oerkelens

I know the feeling

Jasper Loy

I have no bike or car. I am a pauper.

oerkelens

Join the club

Jasper Loy

My most precious possession is my books, which are very expensive.

oerkelens

19:53

I'd say that makes more sense than owning an expensive car

Jasper Loy

If I were rich I still would not get a car, because I don't like driving.

Sawarnik

@JasperLoy Expensive books are not to be read.

Jasper Loy

@Sawarnik I intend to read them, of course.

oerkelens

I would need a driver's license first

Then again, if I were rich enough, I'd get a chauffeur

Jasper Loy

One can just take the cab every day.

oerkelens

19:54

@Sawarnik depends on the books

My antiquarian books are mostly not to be read - anyway, the bibles all have the same story :P

I have used public transport my whole life. One of the perks of living in the Netherlands.

Jasper Loy

Same here, bus and train.

MrHen

data.stackexchange.com/english/query/364

oerkelens

@JasperLoy Was she ever more than that beautiful girl you saw?

MrHen

Our best pessimests.

Jasper Loy

@oerkelens Well, I saw her on the bus. Then somehow I managed to get her email from someone else. Then I emailed her, and then got rejected, though she said she was flattered that I emailed her.

oerkelens

19:59

@MrHen That is very cool

Jasper Loy

@Sawarnik Compared to where?

oerkelens

@JasperLoy Beauty isn't all that counts... but when she looks like the princess form the dreams you had since childhood...

Sawarnik

@JasperLoy From my place.

Jasper Loy

@oerkelens Yes, she does.

@Sawarnik I am sure you have buses and trains too, lol.

oerkelens

Then it really hurts when you discover her happiness lies not with you

Sawarnik

20:01

@JasperLoy Yes, surely. Though I think it would be very different from yours.

Especially the trains.

Jasper Loy

I am going to sleep, good night.

oerkelens

In a way I was lucky that I got a chance to "screen" my princess's husband

Good night

Sawarnik

@JasperLoy Bye, so I can study for my exams tomorrow.

oerkelens

Good luck with studying! (And with taking them, of course!)

Glen The Udderboat

Does "That's interesting." always mean "That's nonsense."?

Why is it so difficult to throw away books? Even if they are bad and you know you'll never look in them again?

MrHen

20:20

@GlenTheUdderboat No but it is commonly used to mean, "I have an opinion but am not sharing it."

Glen The Udderboat

@MrHen Ah, that makes sense. Thanks.

@MrHen Please clarify. "I have an opinion but am not sharing it." or perhaps also "I have a different opinion but am not sharing it."?

MrHen

@GlenTheUdderboat Yes. Typically the reason they are not sharing it is because they do not want to stir up drama. "What do you think of my new dress?" "It's, uh, interesting."

It is intended to be polite but, depending on the culture, doesn't really work. Someone choosing not to share an opinion probably doesn't agree with you. :P

That being said, it isn't always negative or disagreeing.

"Whoa, that's interesting!" This can sometimes mean exactly that: It is interesting and the speaker is interested.

(Also of note, different cultures can use a different word in place of "interesting." In Minnesota, we also say "That's different." for almost the exact same meaning.)

Glen The Udderboat

@MrHen Are Minnesotans usually conservative?

I mean: they are not a "Think Different" people?

MrHen

@GlenTheUdderboat Minnesotans tend to be very "polite" so a lot of their disageements or arguments drift toward passive-aggressive patterns. "That's different" or "that's interesting" is a way to not agree with someone but provide plausible deniability if the other party gets offended.

It's complicated.

Glen The Udderboat

20:36

@MrHen So, which of the US would you consider to be the most straightforward, as in speaking literally? And which the least?

MrHen

Politically, however, Minnesota votes for the Democratic party which would be considered the "liberal" party.

@GlenTheUdderboat I am not really too qualified to answer that but the stereotypical New Yorker is very straightforward.

Glen The Udderboat

@MrHen So, if a New Yorker says "That's interesting." is that more likely to be what he/she means?

MrHen

Minnesota is fairly sarcastic and passive-aggressive but I don't know how it compares to other states. I've noticed similar behaviors in other Midwestern states.

@GlenTheUdderboat It all depends on tone and context but I would guess, "Huh, I did not expect that. I wonder what happened."

"Interesting" is a deliberate catch-all, ambiguous word

Many Writing teachers ban it from their papers for that exact reason.

Hope that helps... not sure if I made it more confusing! :)

Glen The Udderboat

@MrHen How far does this extend? Would "I like that." also be ambiguous in the same sense?

MrHen

@GlenTheUdderboat No. "Like" would almost always be literal.

Something such as, "That's cool" would also be literal.

And you can still say, "That's interesting" and mean it; it all has to do with tone.

Glen The Udderboat

20:47

@MrHen "That's interesting.": literal. "That's interesting.": not. Something like that?

MrHen

@GlenTheUdderboat Yes, that is a good start.

An exclamation is also more likely to be literal: "That's interesting!"

MετάEd

21:09

Three logicians walk into a bar. The bartender asks, "do y'all want drinks?" The first logician says, "dunno!" The second logician says, "dunno!" The third logician says, "yeah!"

Matt Эллен

oh! now I get it

Glen The Udderboat

21:26

@MattЭллен If you like that, you may also like

42

Q: Blue eyes: a logic puzzle

Today I read the Blue Eyes puzzle here. I also read the solution which I find quite interesting. But there are three follow up questions which I don't know the answer to: What is the quantified piece of information that the Guru provides that each person did not already have? Each person know...

recreational-mathematics puzzle modal-logic

Mitch

22:08

@MrHen There is no sarcasm in the south, clever, just not sarcastic. passive-aggressive yes, or rather very good at politely telling you to go to hell.

@GlenTheUdderboat totally sarcastic from a new yorker

Cerberus

@MετάEd Hmm does that work?

The puzzle assumes that each logician knows whether or not he wants a drink himself?

Then I suppose it would work.

Mitch

@Cerberus Yes, each person knows what they want, they just don't know what the others want. Also the question is about if absolutely everyone wants a drink. If the first logician did not want a drink they would immediately say 'No'. If they didn't, they don't know what the others think. Same for Logician #2. For the last one, they know that the other two must want a drink, and could say either yes or know depending on what they themselves want.

MrHen

@Mitch Yes. I learned this the hard when I moved to Texas for a few years and brought my sarcastic, Midwestern habits with me.

Odd looks were had.

Stack Exchange

Limerick Machine: The tired old man in the chair Couldn’t help nodding off there He tried drinking tea And...

posted on March 05, 2014 by sgdi

The tired old man in the chair Couldn’t help nodding off there He tried drinking tea And watching TV But his wakefulness didn’t play fair

MrHen

Crazy update on "pence":

5

A: What's the meaning of "pence" in this context?

I contacted the author of the quoted example and this is the response I got (emphasis mine): In this context it's supposed to be analogous to "guide" or "direct". The point of my argument being that antidepressants increase motivation for severely depressed. Unfortunately that motivation can ...

The author contacted me again and explained where the word came from.

Cerberus

22:26

@Mitch Yeah, yeah, I got it.

Mitch

I can explain more!

Cerberus

It's a word game all right.

Oh! Go on.

Mitch

It's a logic game. few words at all.

unless you consider logic to be all words, just more than words ostensibly spoken

MrHen

Primed by the introduction of the joke noting that three logicians walked into a bar.

Mitch

@Cerberus so that's it. unless you're wondering why a logician would walk into a bar. They might walk into a sanitarium or crack house. but not a bar. (as far as totally wrong prejudices go)

Cerberus

22:32

@Mitch No, the joke depends on phrase with double meanings.

@Mitch I was rather thinking they'd walk straight from the math department to the S&M cellar.

Or is that naïve?

MrHen

@Cerberus Double meanings of what? I don't see any double meanings in the joke.

Cerberus

"I don't know" normally means "I haven't decided yet whether I want a beer" in this context.

"Do y'all want drinks?" normally means "each person should tell me whether he wants a drink".

Mitch

@Cerberus No the meanings are all literal and single.

MrHen

Ah, okay, I see what you are saying.

The meaning is not actually ambiguous in this context but you have to catch the shift into logician-speak.

So yes, there are multiple meanings outside of the context but there is really only one meaning for the purposes of the joke.

Mitch

@Cerberus No, it means "I don't know if we all want a beer"

@Cerberus Oh. Right. OK, it does have two menaings.

at least.

MετάEd

23:27

@MattЭллен The latest limerick: the posted title is better than the limerick.

I love pernicious limericks.

Cerberus

@Mitch Literal is not the normal meaning of those phrases. It's obvious.

@MrHen There is only one meaning to make the joke work, that is the context. But it is hardly straightforward, because you have to think to get at the intended meaning.

@Mitch That is not what it normally means.

MrHen

@Cerberus Hence the point of the joke. :)

Cerberus

Exactly!

Wordplay.

MrHen

@Cerberus I'm not sure I consider context hiding/switching the same thing as wordplay... but okay. :P

Cerberus

Why not?

MrHen

23:37

Because of how priming works.

It isn't really related to wordplay in the sense that it doesn't need words.

That being said, I still see your point.

It is a similar joke to, "There are 10 types of people in the word. Those who know binary and those who don't."

And I can see how some would classify that as wordplay.

Cerberus

@MrHen I'm afraid I'm not sure I understand this point, but never mind.

MrHen

But if you flip the binary joke around, does it still count as wordplay?

@Cerberus Ha, okay. :)

Cerberus

@MrHen Yes, this is also about (theoretical) linguistic ambiguity, although it revolves around a construction rather than a specific word or utterance.

"X number of types" normally means "X number of different types".

This is strongly implied, because "nine types that are all the same" does not make sense in a practical context, it is eliminated by the conditions of reality, normally.

You can always interpret certain linguistic constructions or words unreasonably and make a joke out of it...

I was waiting on the bus. — How did you manage to not fall off?

Exc. exc.

MετάEd

23:55

Water the dog but don't milk the cat. — Carl Witthoft 3 hours ago

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…