English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2011-07-21 (page 1 of 4)

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1:15 AM

I SAID. LALALALA.

:(

1:40 AM

La!

Does using [sic] make me look pretentious?

I'm not the type to usually point out others' mistakes.

And I feel people will hate me if I quote a friend for example and use [sic] and he's like wtf is wrong with my sentence douchebag?

@J82 I'd say so, yeah.

@J82 It indicates that there is something remarkable in a sentence that could otherwise be overlooked or interpreted as your mistake; because it is often used to point out the mistakes of others, that is how it will be taken by default.

So correct silently if the exact spelling isn't of crucial importance; if it is, use [sic] if you want to point out a mistake or oddity, or if you want to prevent others from thinking it was you who made the mistake.

2:45 AM

Drive by video, just in case someone here has not read it:

5 hours later…

7:48 AM

@Cerberus I finally got around to reading the rest of Seaweed-Man's [article](http://www.structuredprocrastination.com/index.php), after which my colleague suggested that I read [this one about incubators](http://www.smh.com.au/executive-style/management/good-news-for-procrastinators-20110615-1g3gw.html) – (a particular species of procrastinator).
I feel marginally better about my shameful shortcomings, now. Hooray!

P.S.: Bleagh! to all you thwakers. (That is all.)

2 hours later…

9:37 AM

Notice who's ordering and who's paying. They got the prediction pretty spot on.

2 hours later…

11:25 AM

"There may be an element of codpiece-flaunting in all this." <— This made my morning happy (from the etymology of braggart).

@Jez Is that authentic? It seems strange that they would have predicted a stylus interface instead of a typewriter.

Alain Pannetier

11:45 AM

@Kit French are well known for the baguette. They also have the braguette.

@AlainPannetier giggle I will never feel the same way about baguette.

@MrHen I feel duly chastised.

@Reg english.stackexchange.com/questions/35104/…

I'm thinking we should edit the question title.

← 2 messages moved from War Metal Tyrant

But the title is censored already.

12:00 PM

Yes, I suppose.

Mr. Disappointment

0

Q: Where exactly did the phrase "hell on legs" come from?

This article uses a phrase that started me wondering, here's the relevant quote (emphasis mine): So you're right. SQL -- the kind you write every day -- is ugly and awkward. In fact, it looks like hell on legs. And it's often pretty slow. Where exactly did the phrase "hell on legs" come...

google.com/…

Not too keen on the question, but we're 9th on Google for "hell on legs".

Someone care to give the most awesomest answer ever?

0

Q: Describing the difference between 2 types of variance

In my research I'm comparing the variance of a method and I would like to describe the overall variance between individuals and the variance of the replicates of these individuals. Things like 'comparing the intra-individual variance and between-individual variance' seems to get people confused...

differences prepositions

I answered this, then realized it should probably go to Writers, since he's asking for a whole sentence.

@Kit apparently, it's linked on Slashdot

Mr. Disappointment

I did see that one, I had to hold back my downvote reflex.

@Jez That's variance's doing.

@Jez What? I don't know what that signifies.

12:12 PM

the video

Mr. Disappointment

Oh, that was completely out of alignment, we'd never have guessed.

@Jez Oh. Oh! The video. Right. That was pretty interesting.

I voted to migrate the variance question.

And I retagged it. prepositions? Really? This guy needs a grammar class.

12:51 PM

@MrHen I like.

Morning, @bracho.

Good evening, Kit.

1

Q: English tenses online services

I want to find some free online services for learning English grammar. I like learning in a playful way. The link below is a group of tests to study Present Perfect, but I want to find something like this for all the tenses (and the grammar generally). I would be very much obliged to you if you...

grammar tense online-resources

@Reg This is off-topic, right?

Falls under improving one's English, methinks.

Also a list-y question.

1:01 PM

2

Q: What is meant by "don't p**s on my boots and tell me it's raining"?

I have heard a couple of times recently the phrase "don't piss on my boots and tell me it's raining", usually in the context of a heated argument so I've hesitated to ask speaker what exactly he meant by it. Can anyone here help?

meaning expressions slang

Brace for multi-collider

You know what, if we were really mean, we would just go and upvote the hell out of this question.

Strange. It seems like a phrase with a pretty intuitive meaning to me.

Then it would be in the top position within minutes.

This is a legit question, and at the same time an embarrassment for JA. His bed. He lies in it.

I don't think the top answer got it though

I mean, it is correct but it isn't really explaining the phrase well

1:04 PM

@MrHen It's all you baby!

Answer the sh*t out of that question!

Certainly you mean, answer the piss out of that question.

But yeah, go MrHen.

Rah, rah, rah!

I bet if you go backstage at any of the online dictionaries, dirty words are over-represented. There's nothing we can do about human nature, folks. This is teh internetz. Mob rules. And we all know how to calculate the IQ of a mob, right? Take the IQ of the dumbest member and divide it by the number of people in the mob.

@Robusto Well, don't tell that to me.

Look at which articles are the most popular on Wikipedia.

I think I'm going to ask another question: "What is meant by 'Don't piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining.'" Totally different question.

1:06 PM

Hint: not paraprosdoki huh wha how do you even spell it, lemme just look at tits.

@RegDwight — Tits are always my first choice of things to look at. Way before paraprosdokians.

@Robusto I'd choose tits too, unless the tits looked like paraprosdokians.

in Teachers' Lounge, Jul 13 at 16:24, by RegDwight

It's just when the Multicollider features a god-awful basic question such as "How do I solve x^2 + bx + c = 24", not everybody notices how god-awful and basic it is; but when it features a question such as "What is the etymology of bitch?", everybody jumps on it.

Great article though. Some nice pics. Some not so nice pics.

I thought you weren't supposed to cross-post, @Reg.

1:09 PM

@Kit It's my post, and I have asked myself for permission, and I gave it to myself.

chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/1343305#1343305

not found.

@RegDwight — Taking matters into your own hands, eh? Huh huh.

@z7sg Do notice the room name.

@Robusto You need to follow it up with "What is the difference between 'don't piss on my boots' vs. 'don't piss on my shoes'".

@Kit Oh, wait. s/paraprosdokian/pachyderm

I always get those two confused.

Also, "What is the difference between 'don't piss on my boots' and 'do piss on my boots'? I am not a native speaker. Thx!".

1:11 PM

@RegDwight — Follow-up question: "What if it's sleet? And can I use sandals instead of boots or shoes?"

0

Q: 'much fewer' vs 'much less'

Are both sentences correct? Wich one is better? There are many cats in the house, but much less dogs. vs. There are many cats in the house, but much fewer dogs.

Quick! Get it!

@RegDwight Teachers' Lounge is a place where moderators go to die.

@Kit Dupe, innit?

I mean discuss secret matters of utmost import.

4

Q: Is "many fewer combinations" correct?

Is the expression "many fewer combinations" correct? It only gets about 600 hits on Google, against 1,200 for "a lot fewer combinations". What would be a correct way of expressing the idea contained in "many fewer combinations"? would it be best rephrased using something like "a large reductio...

expression-choice

1:13 PM

@z7sg — If you discuss them on the web, they ain't secret no more.

That's nice the system created a comment for me!

I ran down the rabbit hole after you.

It's not the right one, though.

It should be "much less" or "many fewer."

It's not really a less/fewer question.

Is citing Urban Dictionary an instant disqualification? If not, it oughta be.

@Robusto Hey, I cite Urban Dictionary in my top question. Don't piss on my highheels.

Here's a handy rhyme to tell the difference:

If spill it you can to make a mess
That's an occasion for using less;
But if there's lots and some are newer
Take some away and there are fewer.
— T. Brompton Pumpernickel

1:18 PM

@Kit Aargh quick how do we remove votes?

By waiting for them to age away, that's how.

@RegDwight — How did you guess my secret fetish?

@Robusto By asking you when you were drunk, so you wouldn't remember.

@RegDwight — I was just pretending to be drunk.

Then why you not remember?

1:20 PM

Actually I think it is a dupe -- the much is irrelevant.

I was hoping you'd be the one who'd forget.

@z7sg It's not so much that much is irrelevant, it's that a native speaker would never combine those things in that way.

@RegDwight — You misspelled naive.

You misspelled U.

wut u talk ne shit like that 4?

1:24 PM

Haha.

U cant spel wut.

u r dum

@RegDwight There is nothing at all ungrammatical there though. Those sentences are both fine, they sound a little weird but there is nothing actually wrong with them.

Well, tell that to him, then.

Hullo hullo.

@Mana — Glad you made it. Welcome to ... the future!

1:29 PM

@Robusto: Uh-oh. The piss question is no. 5 on the collider.

OH MAN THE FUTURE

QUICK EVERY1 PREPARE 2 DIE

@RegDwight The word is censored, however, and then I said something dumb and not true

@RegDwight — Don't piss on my multi-collider and tell me it's raining.

@Mana Tell that to Jeff.

2 days ago, by RegDwight

Wow, Jeff still has the chutzpah to argue that the boobs question was off-topic.

1:30 PM

@Mana — Really? All he ever wanted was for piss to be censored? Then he can die a happy man. Any time now.

@RegDwight Did I miss something? What's wrong with the word piss?

Okay guys, I owned up to my mistake very quickly, even before you two corrected me.

@brachomonacho Did I miss something? What's wrong with the word breast?

@RegDwight In polite company we prefer the word bosom.

I can see this is a sour point among the ELU community.

1:31 PM

I just edited the question to take out the asterisks.

Piss is low-register, but it's not obscene or taboo.

@RegDwight Everyone has breasts, and everyone pisses. I don't see what the big deal is.

The boobs vs. tits question got closed, deleted, discussed behind the scenes by the SE team, undeleted and reopened by Robert Cartaino with a much more explicit title, discussed on our meta to death, after which we censored the title further all by ourselves. And all that has been pointed out to Jeff at least three times by me, and probably a few more times by others.

You can find it in Shakespeare, for Pete's sake.

@brachomonacho Look, why are you talking at me? Tell that to Jeff.

shakespeareswords.com/Headwords-Instance.aspx?Ref=13208

1:33 PM

Janet Jackson has breasts?!?! oh god i'm forever scarred. why couldn't they have censored this?

@Rob You are poking the bear. Are you sure that is wise?

@Kit — Bear-baiting was a popular sport in Shakespeare's time.

There's a bear inside your stomach, the cub's been kicking from within

Robusto always has to look up "cub".

Mar 5 at 22:15, by RegDwight

And now I'm out. When I come back, I expect a 200-word essay from @Robusto on how he did, in fact, have to look up cub. Spill the beans, sir, whom are you trying to fool‽‽‽

I'm still waiting for said essay, BTW.

Those are some weird question marks.

1:36 PM

Those are no question marks.

The interrobang, interabang (), (often represented by ), is a nonstandard punctuation mark used in various written languages and intended to combine the functions of the question mark (also called the “interrogative point”) and the exclamation mark or exclamation point (known in printers’ jargon as the “bang”). The glyph is a superimposition of these two marks. The Unicode code point is U+203D. Application A sentence ending with an interrobang asks a question in an excited manner, expresses excitement or disbelief in the form of a question, or asks a rhetorical question. For example: ...

Wow.

Nerds.

@RegDwight I think he hates me already... I'm sure he was referring to my question in his answer here: meta.english.stackexchange.com/questions/1587/…

I still don't get Jeff's rationale there.

> that's fine, so long as they have to explain the context, rationale, and expectation behind their question. A simple drive by "what does {x} mean?" means the effort is completely disproportionate. In return for typing a sentence in a box, we will provide you with a linguistics degree? That's unfair on a lot of levels.

How about letting us decide what's fair and what's not?

@brachomonacho You can link to the answer directly but selecting the "link" hyperlink underneath it.

If someone with a linguistics degree doesn't want to answer a question, he just won't.

1:40 PM

@Kit Oh, that's great to know! Thanks =)

> while I am always happy to share my motives and plans, I don't have the impression that questions on any site of the StackExchange network need to specify why they are being asked, and what the OP is going to do with the answers provided. – me, Sep 15

@brachomonacho You're welcome. I assume you know that I meant "by" where I wrote "but"?

@RegDwight — Hey, I'm Clark Kent and you're Jimmy Olsen, cub reporter.

:For the professional wrestler, see Jimmy Olsen (wrestler). James Bartholomew "Jimmy" Olsen is a fictional character who appears mainly in DC Comics’ Superman stories. Olsen is a young photojournalist working for the Daily Planet. He is close friends with Lois Lane, Clark Kent/Superman and Perry White. Olsen looks up to his coworkers as role models and parent figures. Fictional character profile Jimmy is traditionally depicted as a bow tie-wearing, red-haired young man who works as a cub reporter and photographer for The Daily Planet, alongside Lois Lane and Clark Kent, whom he idolizes a...

@RegDwight Is that what he means though? I thought the idea was that people with linguistics degrees will see a page full of questions about tits and "What does fart mean?" and so on and think "this site's not highbrow enough for me". Clearly that is mistaken for a number reasons that we all know and have discussed to death.

That's a valid concern in general, but if someone is not willing to so much as look at answers, or even visit the site at all, but rather judges its quality by looking at the MultiCollider, I am not sure he is welcome here.

1:45 PM

@Kit Actually, I didn't even notice it said "but" until you mentioned it. (I'm not very observant; I didn't even know my violin tutor was pregnant until a month before she was due.)

@RegDwight shrug I don't think it's so much that as the way the StackExchange site in general might appear to other people, not just the appearance of ELU

The multicollider is awful. It has taken me to skeptics a few times and each time I start to feel like my brain is dissolving.

Well, we have a proposal to fix it. It's on our meta. It's upvoted. The only one who is objecting to it is...

Surprise! Jeff Atwood. throws another dart

The piss question would not be on the Collider right now if not for Jeff's objection.

That's what people like to call irony.

Alain Pannetier

1:50 PM

@RegDwight And if we are the folks people turn to when they haven't found any answer anywhere on the net and in dicts, then we would probably be writing dictionaries and linguistics books.... instead of just reading them (which I deem already hard enough).

My god now it is at number 3!

@z7sg You should keep in mind that those guys bought themselves 5 gigantic 100in screens and mounted them on the wall in the SE HQ to see what's going on right now.

This is the collided question from Ubuntu.SE:

That question is there right now, in giant letters for everybody to see.

4

Q: Can It be said that Ccleaner is beneficial for linux?

I want use Ccleaner on Ubuntu 10.04. But, I do not know whether it is necessary or not ? Is it necessary for Ubuntu 10.04 ? Are there any benefit of it when used in Ubuntu 10.04?

@RegDwight I hope this is not a joke! :D

1:52 PM

@z7sg I've seen it myself.

They showed it in the live stream for one of the podcasts.

Alain Pannetier

@RegDwight Where I work we do that as well with country maps showing phone networks and/or motorway traffic jams.

Probably not as necessary as English inappropriate questions.

Check my comments on that question. It is definitely "radio friendly" because I have heard it on the radio.

The word, that is.

What is that crazy country where they broadcast Shakespeare on the radio? Cuba?

@RegDwight No, they are communists so they broadcast Chekov.

@z7sg I wonder if Jeff would be offended by the lift in København H station, which proudly proclaims "i fart"?

1:59 PM

@z7sg I doubt communists are even allowed to know about Star Trek.

Pavel Andreievich Chekov () is a Russian Starfleet officer in the Star Trek fictional universe. Walter Koenig portrayed Chekov in the original Star Trek series and first seven Star Trek films; Anton Yelchin portrayed the character in the 2009 film Star Trek. Origin Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry wanted to include a younger cast member, to appeal to teenage audiences. With a second season of Star Trek to be produced, Roddenberry interviewed Koenig on the recommendation of director Joseph Pevney. After casting Koenig, Roddenberry wrote a letter to Mikhail Zimyanin, editor of Pravda, i...

"Koenig always denied the "Russian origin" story"

So, it's true!

Hi.

Just a fast question. What does shortcut <kbd>mean</kbd>?

@RegDwight — Actually, it was Canada.

@genesis I believe it displays the letter within the tags as a key on a keyboard image.

@brachomonacho

2:04 PM

I know. But we're on English Language & Usage

t2.gstatic.com/…

I want to know, what does it mean

So, I've spent the morning and most of the afternoon creating a nice-looking SVG, and I've discovered something. SVGs are terrible at scaling to very small sizes.

@Jez — You were trying to make icons, weren't you?

@z7sg That's the one!

2:05 PM

@Robusto obviously

Yeah. Fuhgeddaboudit. Get yourself Axialis Icon Studio and make them from that.

@genesis <kbd>S<kbd> might become a smaller, more centered version of wpclipart.com/computer/keyboard_keys/letters/computer_key_S.png

@Mana I'm asking, what kbd means

Alain Pannetier

@Jez Because most SVG renderers usually don't take into account sub-pixel anti-aliasing.

I've tried every conceivable way to make icons from vector graphics. I can't tell you how many hours I labored in Illustrator, only to get crap-looking icons as a result. Icons are the single hardest thing to make in graphics. You need special skills.

2:06 PM

@genesis keyboard.

kdb = ? in long version

aaah

or

wait yeah that's it.

Blow up an icon and look at it sometime. What looks like the Mona Lisa in 16x16 looks like oatmeal blown up.

it really sucks. the SVG looks nice when it takes up half my screen

but down at 30x30 it's hard to make out

:-)

@Kit There. Let's see that multicollidered.

2:08 PM

@Jez — Even Illustrator CS5's "align to pixel grid" setting doesn't do the trick.

0

Q: The history of softcore

Over lunch recently, my colleagues and I were discussing the term "hardcore," and speculating on its origin. Our speculations evolved into "What has either a hard or soft core, where the hard cored thing would be used by professionals and the soft cored one by amateurs?" because this is where we ...

@Robusto I've made icons before, not too badly, just pixel-by-pixel in paint shop pro. looks like i need to go back to that again!

Alain Pannetier

@jez, I'd convert the SVG to PNG with alpha channel and import it in a tool like iconfactory. This will scale down pretty well.

will it?

why iconfactory, and not The GIMP?

Good morning all!

2:11 PM

hi @aedia

@Jez — There is no other way. But seriously, check out Axialis Icon Workshop. It lets you do pixel-by-pixel in an enlarged state while viewing the icon in its actual size. Plus it lets you edit 128x128 to 16x16.

Alain Pannetier

Not sure whether GIMP will handle all the icon formats in just one export.

i don't need an icon format, this is for a webpage

it's just about that kind of size

maybe i could get away with 50x50

Alain Pannetier

Then GIMP is fine indeed.

@aedia Morning!

Alain Pannetier

2:12 PM

FWIW, One of my fav vector based imaging tool is long dead Macromedia Fireworks...

@Robusto Axialis is great indeed for icons.

@Kit That reminds me of a site I haven't visited in years....

What's the first thing you think of when you hear Old Grandma Hardcore?

Number 2.

@brachomonacho I've never seen that. Very nice. That'll be me in twenty or so years.

@AlainPannetier there's Adobe Fireworks now...

Alain Pannetier

@Jez, I lost track after CS3 and honestly though Adobe had just smothered it once bought.

Thx! Will try it out.

2:20 PM

@Kit Been exerting a suitably deviant influence, I see?

Not so much.

This still needs two more votes to close, plus a polite comment explaining why:

1

Q: English tenses online services

I want to find some free online services for learning English grammar. I like learning in a playful way. The link below is a group of tests to study Present Perfect, but I want to find something like this for all the tenses (and the grammar generally). I would be very much obliged to you if you...

grammar tense online-resources

@Martha I posted that for close votes this morning. What the hell, people?

I wonder who upvoted?

I think this calls for a chatwide slap to the face, delivered courtesy of Kit.

slaps @brachomonacho

2:29 PM

What did I do now? =-(

@Mana What? What are you doing? Do not take my name in vain.

unslaps @brachomonacho

=D

:|

We don't slap in here, @Mana, it's not nice.

I really am paying attention.

Mr. Disappointment

It's beyond me how I actually achieve Nice Answer badges.

2:31 PM

//pictures @Kit doing a slow-motion imitation of a slap run in reverse

@MrDisappointment Nice Answer is easy: post a photo

@Kit Yes. We thwack here. It's completely different.

Good Answer: post a photo and get multicollidered

@MrDisappointment Answering a multicollidered question usually gets you a nice answer.

Even if it's a crap answer.

Of course, you can also get totally hosed.

@Martha Completely different. "Slapping is something you do to bitches" is the saying I believe.

Mr. Disappointment

My most recent answer was MultiCollidered?

2:33 PM

@Kit Looks like you forgot to support the castles proposal? Here's the link: area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/33804/…

@z7sg Ahhh. Right. I'll make sure I do that soon. shifts uncomfortably

@MrDisappointment Was it?

"Is Castles a duplicate of Engineering?"
.....seriously?

@Kit Great... btw I made it cos I thought you liked mottes and baileys and stuff and thought you would like to have a whole site to talk about them on, well basically there it is: enjoy! :D

@z7sg What the heck is that, people?

@brachomonacho Engineering is actually a bad proposal. Who are the experts?

2:36 PM

"How do I build a castle?"

Well, that's a bit awkward. I mean, I do like them. And heraldry and siege engines and stuff. But I don't know if I'd want to talk about them all day.

@RegDwight Could be useful if you need to know how to build a castle!

@RegDwight It was intended to be the most general question possible.

@Kit Oh my. I feel so silly now. cry

@z7sg Ah! That's the part I was missing. Thanks.

@z7sg Engineers. D'oh.

2:38 PM

@RegDwight Yeah I guess like ppl with a degree in Engineering.

No. Train engineers.

Gosh I have to explain everything to these people.

gtg

bye

@z7sg There, there. pat pat

cul

2:39 PM

@RegDwight Ah train engineers... but what does that have to do with castles?

@z7sg Another easy question. Little!

@z7sg Is this for real castles only? Or like, scale models? Or can I ask you to identify my fictional castles for me?

More to the point, can I ask you to build a castle for me?

@aedia Ask a question, "Can you identify this fictional castle?" and see what the community thinks.

So it stops being fictional, you see.

2:41 PM

http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/31973/material-science?referrer=H33Pzm-1bzjPJScW6SNEcw2
I agree.

@RegDwight You want to build a fictional castle so it becomes real? Hmmm

@brachomonacho Wow that's awfully technical and specific. On the other hand, theoretical computer science is theoretically making it.

@brachomonacho Yes. Well, I don't understand a word of that of course.

@aedia Yeah, that's what makes it so hard to find decent information on the net.

user image

2:45 PM

user image

^ anyone get that to scale down to 50x50 gracefully? ;-)

Damnit Jez stop betweening me.

user image

I can't read the text, so no.

Anyhows, what I was going to say.

it was so good big......

Hai.

I don't think that the other questions on the MC are...

Well. Just look for yourself.

@RegDwight If they should enquire, tell them I stopped sympathizing with the site.

2:49 PM

And we can spell our titles correctly.

@Cerberus Which site? You have to be precise.

@RegDwight Any site where respected members can be insulted by staff and sudden, unwanted changes forced upon the community.

Some of those questions on Programmers look low quality.

man, just chill.

How to fail an interview? Why don't all companies buy their developers the best hardware?

@Cerberus Both of which were linked on Hacker News and which promoted interesting discussion and enlightening answers.

@Mana You're right, I will shut up.

Alain Pannetier

2:53 PM

user image

I'm not saying all the stuff on Programmers is great but I think you need to calm down instead of choosing your targets like this.

@Mana I do not doubt that: I have no problem with such questions. But it would be inconsistent to keep them, because they look bad on the MC as well.

How do they look bad on the MC? They seem interesting. I know that I clicked on both of them in the hacker news feed. They don't contain any potentially offensive terms.

That's not the point. On the face of it, they are low-quality questions that should be considered off-topic.

"Why don't" = peeving. Off-topic.

Exactly.

2:56 PM

How to fail an interview = subjective, peeving. off-topic.

Woah wait what?

The parameterized queries one is probably useful to me right now though.

Again: I have no problem with such subjective or open questions. But the SE network generally says they don't want them (it is in all the FAQs).

@Mana What what?

I'm going to ignore the peeving stuff since I don't get that point at all. Also, Programmers was meant to encourage subjective questions that are constructive and lead to insightful expert answers.

2:58 PM

Yes, but not discussions. "If your motivation for asking the question is “I would like to participate in a discussion about ______”, then you should not be asking here."

You seem to be arguing that any question can be interesting as long as it gets interesting answers. I agree, for the most part. But it is precisely this that Jeff vehemently disagreed with, or so he said, when he was fulminating against our questions about slang expressions. He doesn't get linguistics.

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