@Mana Go away.

I ated a mushroom

@GraceNote Ok ^^. I think.

about 20 minutes ago

@GraceNote Morels are the best. Fried in butter. Yum.

also, its a snaaaaaaaaaaaake

Hello everyone, please add lots of flags to things on the site

I need to get rid of my shame coloring

As a very young child from before I remember, I apparently loved mushrooms more than anything. Then for years I loathed their taste and texture and could not stand to eat them. Then I started to like mushrooms again.

@simchona stackoverflow.com/revisions/5081182/1

I started out hating the texture, then I liked them, then I ate a bad portabello

@JasperLoy :( but I ated it real good!

@MichaelMyers Wow. At least it's clear and unambiguous?

@Shog9 Y'know, at some point I should know the proper name of my favorite mushroom (for eating!), but really I only know it as "Black Mushroom".

Also, why are we discussing mushrooms in here too?

@MichaelMyers This time we're discussing edible ones!

Shiitake? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiitake

@MichaelMyers Because GraceNote is here

@GraceNote Because I am here

I hate to do it, but...

@Shog9 Well, you are Knives after all

@nohat Ok, but we're going to quote you on that later...

@simchona Possible? I always thought shiitake were smaller.

@GraceNote I'm not in your head; how big are the ones you like? They also cook down

@aedia please do

@simchona No, I mean, looking at the images, it could be shiitake.

still waiting for those flags...

@nohat But I DID flag... it was my morning flag

@MichaelMyers For some reason I thought she only mainly hung out in The Bridge.

@Shog9 Wow that sounds pretty paranoid...

@GraceNote chinesefood.about.com/od/glossary/g/blackmushroom.htm ?

Clearly I was mistaken.

@Mana You don't know the half of it. Also, I thought you only hung out in The Bridge.

@MattEllen I'd need to see them cooked.

@Cerberus You'd think so, right? But, check out some of the other proposals... Folks honestly and explicitly want PMs so that they can bug other users

@MichaelMyers Correct. That would probably explain why I thought that.

@Shog9 :3

But by their common usage in soups, that's entirely plausible

@Shog9 Well, users bug me on other websites; I just ignore them or forget to reply, just as in comments?

@Shog9 and theres already an ignore feature in place

@GraceNote first thing that came when I Googled black mushroom ^_^

@simchona In chat, yes. Chat is sort of the fill-in for all the messaging features that the sites won't implement.

@Cerberus Which brings us back to the whole, "features start at minus 100 points" philosophy - it can't just be "acceptably harmful", it has to be clearly beneficial

? Why couldn't private messaging be allowed only for 100+, except in reply to a message received?

(BTW, I wasn't entirely joking with my "ask Jez" comment - a lot of this has been discussed to death on Meta in the past)

@Cerberus It could be. We could impose all sorts of limitations to restrict abuse. Including not implementing it at all

@Shog9 And I submit that the Android and iPhone rooms on [chat.so] are excellent arguments against adding such a feature.

@JasperLoy Certainly; Kosmonaut, Reg, Vitaly, that V8 guy before he got suspended...

@Cerberus We have overturned "bydesign" and "declined" stuff, for the record. That said, I don't personally see the benefit in enabling PMs but I'm really not going to jump on that train.

FWIW: moderators can PM users; not everyone knows this, but this is built-in to the sites. And even then, they are discouraged from using it except in extreme situations.

PM...through email, you mean?

@Cerberus vgv8? There's a guy who'd love PMs I should think...

@GraceNote Really? Well, not the issues that bothered me. But I'll stop!

@Shog9 like when snowboarding off piste

@MichaelMyers Oh... Did you notice one of the android guys has taken to showing up in The Tavern on off hours? I didn't. Until the flags started collecting.

@MattEllen More like with enough big red warnings when it first came out that we couldn't use it for anything short of Murder 1

Several of them were at some point, but I guess they got bored.

@Shog9 And I'd have liked to pm him. On other sites, whether as a moderator or not, I have always found that private messages are by far the best way to calm people down and such. I

@Shog9 Are the android people, uh. Hm. Not well behaved?

@JasperLoy But, see, an e-mail is too much. I'd never do that. I don't want to.

@Mana We have a utility beyond email.

@Mana They are, um... Well, check out the room.

@Cerberus We've had reasonably good luck with chat rooms. Assuming, that is, the person actually cares to be reasoned with.

@Mana they're just androids, they're not people. they have no rights

toodles!

Maybe I'm blind, but I can't even find The Tavern.

@Mana It's on chat.meta.stackoverflow, not on chat.stackexchange

oh

thanks

@JasperLoy Sensitivity is quite a positive trait.

@GraceNote context. Sensitive feet are good when you're looking for a dropped screw; bad when you're walking on gravel.

@Shog9 I don't think we need to bring up the staple again, do we?

@Shog9 Well, I can't find anything bad that happened.

(BUT WHAT ABOUT LOOKING FOR A DROPPED SCREW IN GRAVEL?!!!)

(Why would you search for a screw with barefeet?)

@GraceNote Tiny, tiny screw. You don't drop them? Because you're smart and put them carefully in magnetic trays immediately following removal? I hate you.

@Shog9 Reinforced ziploc baggie, actually

Plus coat pocket. Always need a handy pocket for that kind of stuff.

Pockets are great. Best reason not to be a woman: stylish female dress lacking pockets.

@Shog9 Okay, but will users come to the chat room? I have never seen V8 here, so I never had a chance to talk to him. Besides, this is not private. It doesn't work the same way, socially.

@Shog9 Hence the coat.

(Also the last time I dropped a screw, it was dropped into the lawnmower blade feed, so that's still yet less reason to use my feet to find it!)

@JasperLoy OK that is fine. But it isn't the same...

@GraceNote Even less reason to use your HANDS! ("Of course, which is why I used a magnet. Onna stick. 'Cause I'm smart and prepared like that, not an ill-prepared hack LIKE SOME PEOPLE")

Perhaps I am not the right person to talk to about this. I have been feeling this irrationally violent rage towards all that is Stackexchange for the past days.

@Cerberus Jeepers!

I am keeping it under control, because I can see that it is greater than would be warranted. But it isn't disappearing.

@Cerberus Yessss... Feel your rage... Give in to your anger. With each passing moment you make yourself more my servant.

@Cerberus This is usually the kind of scenario I recommend people to step aside for a couple days.

@Shog9 Magnet on a flexible, spring-like stick, specifically. Great for stuff under the couch, too

I mean it's just a site maaaan. It's all about having a good time and learning stuff.

I have tried that. Things haven't improved in the slightest, so far.

Oh God. I must stop reading meta.

Good friend of mine used to say, when feelings got hurt on a related site, "It's all just text".

@Shog9 Etiquette forbids it.

PERSPECTIVE

@Cerberus I'm not surprised, honestly, which is why this was something of an exception.

There's way too much charge in the atmosphere here. It hasn't died down at all, and honestly I start to wonder how much of it is self-fueling, however.

@Grace How do you mean?

I couldn't tell you. I just know I miss Kosmonaut.

@Mana Complex to explain, and unless you want to get dragged into something very deep, I wouldn't recommend you asking me further.

@Cerberus We all do. Hejudas, I miss Kosmonaut and I knew him far less than the lot of most of you.

Sounds deep, maaaaaaaan.

Understandable.

@Mana Don't worry, I came in in the middle too

This chat room feels like it is unconnected to ELU, that's why I like it still.

@GraceNote But I guess if I browsed around on meta.ELU for a while, I would find out?

@Cerberus THIRD PLACE FTW!

@Mana You'd have to look pretty hard

@Cerberus Rather the point, in a sense. ♪

But I should shut up. This isn't helping anyone.

PUPPIES

@GraceNote It's almost certainly self-fuelling to an extent.

@simchona Are you asking for a challange?????

Hades puppies

@Cerberus In one perspective it isn't, but only because that perspective sees it as rehashing that which has already been noted.

@Mana I mean knock yourself out. But it takes a lot of digging if you don't know what you're looking for

@GraceNote Right, that's what it is. And venting.

@Cerberus But from another perspective, there is a utility to venting.

ok all, I'm out

@Rhodri That's what I worry about, because that makes it all the more difficult, and worse off more dangerous, to try and amend things. It's not enough to scare me off, but it nevertheless gives some extra cognizance on what cannot be addressed.

@Cerberus channel your frustration into informed Meta posts. You might be surprised how much difference a reasoned argument can make.

OK peeps, I've got to go. And it's been a week. I don't have time to start deleting my stuff tonight, so I'll probably see you tomorrow.

@Mana If you want a summary: Jeff (founder of the whole network) saw too many questions from ELU about vulgar subjects on his Multicollider to his taste. He felt that adjusting the collider or allowing us to filter questions for it wasn't an option; he wanted us to combat questions about explaining vulgar language and other jokes, mainly by closing them. We resisted (though I was on vacation at the moment). An argument about what constitutes linguistics ensued. Kosmonaut, a PhD student in linguistics, and nearly all the other academics here disagreed with Jeff. But he forced the issue.

@Rhodri You do realize there's an anti-abuse mechanism that stops mass deletion?

@Cerberus I hope you take no offense to me thinking that summary perspective seems a bit tinted.

@Shog9 I feel all these negative feelings even thinking about joining the discussion. I want out of it.

@GraceNote Erm, no? I guess I'll have to do it slowly, then.

Does that apply to comments too?

@Rhodri Negative on the comments. We don't really care about those.

@JasperLoy Everything on this site with my name on it (that I wrote, anyway)

@Cerberus That's fine. Look, I've been through all this before, several times, and I've watched people I respect leave out of frustration... Ultimately, the choice is whether you've found something valuable that you're willing to stand and fight to preserve, or if you're just here for the ride, and will be getting off once it slows down. Either one is good.

@GraceNote Possibly so. This is how I understood it. But the main issue is: whatever happened drove away Kosmonaut, one of the most knowledgeable, balanced, kind persons here.

@JasperLoy Yes. And I will not have my name associated with Jeff's behaviour.

@Rhodri You could just ask for anonymization.

@Rhodri: "taking my ball and going home" is... frowned upon

@JasperLoy Technically, once the account is deleted it becomes far more difficult

@Shog9 It's my ball. Just like, despite all the rhetoric, EL&U is Jeff's ball.

@Shog9 I don't see things coming together any time soon for most of the formerly most active users here, including myself, Robusto, Rhodri, Reg, Kosmonaut...

@JasperLoy There's a difference between "Account deletion" and "Delete all of my posts". The latter is, well, as Shog9 just noted, it's not really liked.

I mean, if you're on this site to share knowledge, isn't it kind of dumb to take your knowledge sharing posts away?

@Cerberus This was what I was referring to when I mentioned the charged atmos, as it were. All sides of this conflict are simply strengthening their own convictions in response to the opposite side doing the same thing. All I've seen it accomplish is make both sides even more furious with each other.

Am I being stupidly optimistic and idealistic in saying that? Yes, yes I probably am.

@GraceNote "It's not really liked" really doesn't cut it against the bullying. Particularly not when you get utter hypocrisy added to the mix.

@Mana Yeah, but I really don't want to do anything that reflects positively on a bully.

Wait, @Grace - you think you're being idealistic by noting that digging in just prolongs the problem? That sounds more... realistic.

@Rhodri I've already stated that I think if we spent more time focusing on the bullying aspect so that Jeff can't weasel away by discussing another subject, then we'd probably get further.

@Shog9 The idealism/optimism is implied in that if the above statement is observation, that the solution is antithetical towards the current situation.

good job guys with flagging questions... let's see if we can go through some older questions and flag them for clarification and other improvements

FLAGGING!!!

@GraceNote Meh. He's had a week to apologise. He won't. I don't see any point in hoping further. It'll just hurt more.

Anyway, I said I needed to go, and I really do.

It's been... something.

@Rhodri So were you here for Jeff, or were you here for the other EL&U users?

Well, bye! :(

Bother.

Oh, no, I was saying bye to Rhodri.

@Rhodri I have a semi-plan for the top-30 users here to migrate their top questions to a new site and delete everything here. Would you be interested, hypothetically? Anyone I have asked so far seemed interested.

@Rhodri In other words, don't delete anything yet, please. It would be a waste to destroy knowledge.

I see...

@JasperLoy Sounds logical. Did they do it?

@Cerberus No, they did not.

What prevented them?

@Cerberus: I cannot in good conscience fail to mention at this point, although I know it won't help with the tension, that the content posted on EL&U is licensed in such a way that you or anyone else can take it whereever you want, without express permission, so long as it's properly attributed. And this same license gives this site permission to continue using the content if you should leave.

@Cerberus Nothing stopped them, they decided not to

@Shog9 Of course. Do you think people would undelete our answers here?

@Cerberus I did not mention the "anti-abuse" system under that description for no reason.

@Cerberus Yes. In fact, as @Grace Noted, you would be blocked by the system after some small number of deletions, after which you'd be blocked by a moderator, after which the posts would be undeleted.

@JasperLoy That's the idea. No one gets to hold anyone else hostage over a good answer.

Seems reasonable.

Unless of course you managed to recruit a moderator to run interference for you

> @Grace Noted

That is the best thing.

Hehe.

@JasperLoy The system doesn't block you if you stay under 5/day, but that doesn't mean you won't run into problems.

@Shog9 Even so, I don't really feel this migration would be proper etiquette.

@Mana John beat Shog by months to that thing. In Oak's post, no less.

I think if a group of top users left en masse, TPTB would just shutter the site

lol, yeah

How?

TL;DR

@Cerberus ^

@nohat It'd be a very unique conclusion that I'd be deeply saddened to see. It would probably still attempt to trudge forward, though.

_________________________________________________

@Robusto I know, I should edit that. I basically changed my mind half way through, then wasn't in the mood to clean it up.

@Cerberus Look, the whole idea behind this - going back years, before Stack Overflow even existed - is that you're here because the system works for you. We're not holding you hostage over stuff you've written (like... some sites). If it's really so bad that you cannot stand to use the site anymore, the entire content is downloadable!

People don't value brevity here.

The Team is very, very hesitant about shutting down a graduated site. That's what the graduation process is all about, after all - it's supposed to indicate a site with enough power and everything behind it that it is not under any threat for shut down

(That's also why it's been so much more difficult for sites to graduate recently, but that's a story for another day)

What, is there talk of shutting down ELU now? Really?

@Robusto No intent of it, no.

In spite of how much it embarrasses JA, this seems to be one of the more successful SE sites.

But there is idle musing on the consequences of the site were a collective of the top users to all leave.

@Shog9 I know. On an abstract level, I know I should feel grateful for what SE allowed us to do. But it's just not working any more here for most top users.

That said, forking a site is a major, major undertaking. I've watched it happen, successfully, and it's non-trivial. You don't want to consider such a thing lightly.

@Cerberus This is where I say channel your frustration, and Grace sez take a break.

Well, the whole thing with Kosmonaut was handled very, very poorly.

@Robusto I know. You're back already after one short little raptchah.

@Cerberus This is when I reiterate the self-fueling point and wonder how much of this "not working for us" is out of things actually not working, versus people who simply don't want it to work out positively.

@Robusto I mentioned my semi-plan to migrate our top answers. But I don't think I could justify it.

I thought we were in the hands of people who knew what they were doing and cared about what we were doing up until that point.

@Robusto Aye to that. Extremely poorly.

@GraceNote It is a social thing. When a community feels it isn't working, it isn't, despite any technical possibilities.

BTW, I wanna take this opportunity to say, @RegDwight, @nohat, @waiwai933 - you guys have really been doing a good job here in handling a quite tumultuous event. Way to step up, congrats and thanks.

@Cerberus — Migrate them where?

@nohat Search options help, like closed:0 and hasaccepted:0

Thanks accepted. :)

@Cerberus Commitments require work. But this community is not a commitment, so I once again assert that I'm being idealistic and optimistic here.

@Robusto To another, independent site. Jez already offered to make one. But it wouldn't be right, I think.

@Cerberus — I don't think it would be legal either, for that matter.

Nevertheless, it saddens me to think that almost a year of the community building itself together, and everyone feeling like they are a unit, and it takes a matter of days to shatter it.