English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

00:23

0

Is -scule in minuscule a suffix? What does it mean? scale? (I have looked it up in etymonline and didn't find the answer)

suffixes

It's the Timster. Again.

@Cerberus I thought it was hiatusae's.

tchrist

@Cerberus Dextrum cornu legionem fugaverat.

There’s also genu for deep knee-bends and other flavors of genuflection.

Cerberus

00:38

@tchrist Yes, there are, what, 7 words?

My dictionary only knows 5.

tchrist

@Cerberus Something like that, yeah. But some are common

Cerberus

Not very...

Cornu, genu, gelu, pecu, veru.

tchrist

Well, knees are common.

Ah pecu.

Cerberus

I would call gelu, pecu, and veru rare.

In fact, I have no idea what veru means.

tchrist

How impecunious of you!

Cerberus

00:40

Ah, a spit.

tchrist

Actually, the whole pecu thing is complicated.

Cerberus

@tchrist Yes, I am a poor city dweller.

Pecus -udis is more common than pecu -cus.

And pecus -oris is also more common.

tchrist

I am in the highly peculative land of Wisconsin, an udder haven if ever there was one.

Cerberus

Peculative? That's a first...

Ah, from peculate.

tchrist

These things occur where pecudiculture is an art.

Cerberus

00:43

I know that word, peculate.

tchrist

And I have not talking about your toes.

Cerberus

Not sure pecudiculture is a word...

tchrist

is shocked

Cerberus

I know!

tchrist

pecudiculture [ˈpɛkjuːdɪˌkʌltjʊə(r)], [-tʃə(r)]. rare.

Etymology: f. L. pecud-em a beast, in pl. cattle + culture: after horticulture, etc.

The rearing of cattle.

1885 Century Mag. XXIX. 363 - Agriculture and Horticulture. Pecudiculture.

Cerberus

00:45

I know what it has to mean...but...well, rare.

How is everything?

tchrist

Note that this is different from the rearing of sheep.

Everything is no better than one might imagine, and in certain ways, worse.

The worse I can't even get into. Suffice it to say that my father had only one good son.

Cerberus

Oh, dear.

How many sons are there? They make you do everything? Bicker about stupid things?

tchrist

He's ducking out of the funeral, with Dad's only grandsons! He's written a eulogy which he has sent to my sister, whom he expects to read it aloud at the funeral.

Note that my sister is not related to my father, and doesn't even know if she can get the time off.

It's very nasty.

Cerberus

Ugh.

tchrist

The lesbian-in-law isn't letting him attend. Are you sure your demesne has no small room for her?

Cerberus

00:48

Why can't he stay?

Robusto

Oct 6 at 0:18, by Robusto

TIL that the word miniature in connection with painting has nothing to do with size. The term comes from Latin miniatus, pp. of miniare, meaning "to paint with red lead" (minium). It was often used to describe illuminated manuscripts, which can be anything but small. Thought for the day.

3

A: Is *-scule* in *minuscule* a suffix?

The word minuscule refers originally to small letters, and comes from Latin minusculus, which, according to Merriam-Webster is a diminutive form of minor. It is analogous to majuscule, which is a diminutive form of major. That is, the Latin word minor meaning "smaller" has a diminutive form of mi...

tchrist

He lives in Michigan, 6 hours away.

Robusto

You heard it here first.

Cerberus

@tchrist Book an hotel?

Robusto

nohat isn't as cute as he used to be.

tchrist

00:48

She claims the kids do not need to miss another day of school.

Cerberus

That's stupid.

tchrist

@Robusto Age does that to us all.

@Cerberus She is mad, in the classical sense.

Cerberus

Oh, well. Sometimes people are annoying and stupid. If there is nothing you can do, sigh and ignore them.

And he enables her.

Robusto

@tchrist Except for Grecian urns.

When old age shall this generation waste,
    Thou shalt remain, in midst of other woe
  Than ours, a friend to man, to whom thou say'st,
'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
    Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.'

Cerberus

@Robusto What's wrong with this?

He calls minor and minus "nouns", that's all I see.

Robusto

00:52

@Cerberus Nothing. Just pointing out that I made that observation in chat already.

Cerberus

Haha OK.

Robusto

I wish there were no "badges" here. They just get in the way, and some of them are offensive. I would like to return the "Strunk and White" badge, for instance, but there's no way to do so, which shows that they are meaningless and useless. Like so many things on this site, "badges" are not well-suited to the topic. Good for boy scouts, maybe. — John Lawler 6 hours ago

Bravo, Prof. Lawler.

Cerberus

I'd also like to point out that minium may come from the name of some obscure river.

@Robusto Ah, the eternal crusade against style books.

Robusto

@Cerberus It also "may" come from a ploughshare or a wedge of cheese.

Cerberus

Not that I know S&W.

@Robusto Except that the river has a far higher chance.

Bradd Szonye

00:53

I don't think it's about style books in general so much as Strunk & White in particular.

That one seems to earn the ire of many a language nerd.

I know there's a guy on Language Log who loves to rant about it.

Robusto

It's not really as bad as people make it out to be. Nor is it as good. It's a "wedge" narrative.

Bradd Szonye

I think it's a combination of it being well-loved and highly recommended and yet dubious.

Kind of like how some people hate iGizmos.

@Robusto Relevant to the discussion of whisk(e)y the other day: dinersjournal.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/04/…

Robusto

I find it funny that people demand you come down on one side or the other. Like they expect you to wholly embrace descriptivism or prescriptivism. I embrace neither.

tchrist

They always want booleanism even when that makes no sense.

Republican xor Democrat.

Boys xor Girls.

Meat xor veggies.

Town xor country.

Good xor evil.

Right xor wrong.

Married xor unmarried.

Bradd Szonye

Rare or well done.

tchrist

00:58

Which are both neither.

Bradd Szonye

Heh.

Whiskey or whisky!

Cerberus

@Robusto Yeah, it's silly.

Fowler is really good, btw.

No nonsensical errors like those in S&W (about passives and whatever LL was ranting about).

Okay, bed time.

Good night!

Robusto

Wait! Have a nightcap before you go.

As you can see, I tend to drink more scotch than anything else. [Wine collection not shown.]

That's the camera on the phone, though. I scaled the image down using GIMP2.

@BraddSzonye My bottles of scotch all say "whisky" on them. The bourbons say "whiskey" and the gin says neither.

Bradd Szonye

Interesting comment on the NYT article, asking whether whisky/whiskey is a proper difference in terminology, or whether it's a regional spelling variant akin to colour/color.

Robusto

Define regional. People in India spell it colour and so do those in Canada, when they've sobered up.

Bradd Szonye

01:12

Regions can be large!

@tchrist It always amuses me when people cite Arnold Zwicky here. I used to work with his daughter. We'd chat about linguistics at lunch sometimes.

I presume that's her who he mentioned in that article on reflexives.

Robusto

A little more size and I tweaked the white balance a little because there's a bright can light right above the cabinet.

And so to bed.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

01:31

cheers for The Singleton, Balvenie

@Robusto struggles to write joke about The Islay Brothers

Mitch

01:48

They're intentionally giving general guidelines to people who are about to become writers, not the rules of great writing. Their 'style' is to prevent -horrendous- grade school writing, not to write Jane Austen.

@Cerberus Wait...what's all the hatin against Strunk and White? They never thought they were trying to be a grammar reference, the definitive rule book of English. Nor were they trying to be -the- style guide that everyone should follow. So they use an actual passive in telling people not to use the passive.

@BraddSzonye Oh...came into the conversation late.

Yes, I think Geoff Pullum. Who also rants (and writes books) about 30 words for snow. Most of his rants turn out to be pedanticisms ('it's not 30 exactly, it's more like 12'). He is also the coauthor of The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, so he has earned the right to rant. But it's still a rant.

MετάEd

05:18

@Mitch They weren't even "they".

It's more like "White likes Strunk". Or "Son of Strunk: White".

RegDwigнt

09:02

@Robusto I see you're hiding the real good stuff elsewhere.

Cerberus

09:56

@Robusto Very nice!

The whiskey and the camera.

@Mitch Well, if I recall correctly, many of the examples of passives they use are not in fact passives. I don't think that's acceptable.

And, if they "only provide writing advice", then why can't they be like Fowler?

He is intelligent and erudite.

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus three out of four, in fact. Three out of four are wrong.

I agree with Mitch that the blame is in no small part on the readers. The book frigging says style right there in the title. But everyone uses it as a grammar reference.

(Of course it does have a chapter on grammar, too. That's where the wrong passive examples are in. But it's like one chapter, the rest is just really "oh this is my personal advice on style".)

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt A style book must get its grammar right.

RegDwigнt

Of course the really bad thing about that book is, it doesn't follow its own advice. On style or grammar.

Cerberus

Now that is another matter.

RegDwigнt

Like that guy last week on ELU.

Where was it...

Cerberus

10:03

The way you are talking about style books is like they have to be stupid.

And Mitch.

RegDwigнt

Dunno. Anyway. His advice was, "Passive voice must be avoided in writing".

Cerberus

Hehe.

RegDwigнt

That was the very first sentence of his answer.

Cerberus

"I don't say don't."

RegDwigнt

He couldn't follow his own advice for one sentence on end.

Cerberus

10:03

Stupid.

RegDwigнt

Even S&W do better than that. Not often, but sometimes.

Cerberus

Or merely funny, if he qualifies his advice.

But anyway, I don't get why people are talking about S&W at all.

It's not a good style book, so why would anyone use it?

RegDwigнt

Why do people read Dan Brown?

There's your answer.

Cerberus

Especially if you have Fowler and a host of others.

RegDwigнt

It's a bestseller because it's a bestseller.

Cerberus

10:05

But people enjoy DB.

RegDwigнt

Funny how "best" doesn't have to mean "good".

Cerberus

One does not enjoy a style book except if the quality of its advice is good, but one can enjoy a novel whose language is so-so.

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus they enjoy SW, too. And arguing online armed with the "knowledge" from it.

Cerberus

But why?

RegDwigнt

Because people enjoy arguing online.

Cerberus

10:06

How can a bad style book become popular?

RegDwigнt

Well. You answered your own question.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus asks the Cerberus who spends his days arguing about computers with MrS&N

Cerberus

The intelligent core group who like style books should do something about it, should not fall for it.

@MattЭллен Umm hello.

Matt Эллен

hi :)

Cerberus

Mrs H is not a bad style book.

Matt Эллен

10:07

but you like arguing

why wouldn't other people?

Cerberus

Ehh...

What does that have to do with it?

Matt Эллен

what does enjoying arguing online have to do with enjoying arguing online about strunk and white?

RegDwigнt

Anyway. I must eat lekker... um. Wiktionary does not have an NL translation for "thing". Hilarious.

The word "thing" does not exist in NL.

Matt Эллен

ananas

RegDwigнt

I don't like ananas.

I'd rather eat things.

I'll go with dingen.

Lekker dingetje eten.

BBL

Matt Эллен

10:10

CU

@Cerberus Think about it this way: if one person tells two people that the style book is good, and they each tell two new people...

Then all you have to do is form an Abba tribute band and bob's your uncle

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt That sounds hilarious. Btw. I heard people in the tram saying that Germans don't use lecker except for food, and that they specifically make fun of the Dutch because we call other things lekker colloquially. So that explains all this.

@MattЭллен That implies there does not exist a core group of intelligent people.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus how?

Cerberus

It is like...everybody buying Iphones even though Androids are cheaper and both are widely available: normally, this does not happen, because the knowledgeable core group steer their friends towards the better choice, who tell their friends, etc. Knowledgeable people lay a lot more weight in the scale.

Matt Эллен

that would depend on the size of the group of "knowledgable" people

also on the value of their opinions

if the majority don't value the opinions of the knowlegable then they won't be paid attention to

Cerberus

So the current situation implies that a society where people use S&W as an icon has a comparatively small group of intelligent people?

Normally, people do value the opinions of the knowledgeable.

Matt Эллен

10:15

a small group of people who understand how language works

Cerberus

Why is it so small?

Matt Эллен

coincidence

Cerberus

You would never see such a thing happen here...

Matt Эллен

why do creationists persist?

Cerberus

OK so you're saying "America is more stupid", got it!

Matt Эллен

10:17

:D

Cerberus

But seriously, why on earth follow S&W when you have Fowler ready and available, and with a solid and old reputation?

Matt Эллен

who knows that? Not the people who value S&W.

I don't know which of those books is good, except that you tell me one is bad and one is good. OK, maybe several people tell me S&W is bad, but still

once a person has been indoctrinated a certain way, it's very hard to change them

Cerberus

And yet normally the good things have a much greater chance of coming up on top, because knowledgeable people are a huge factor in the process.

Same with science.

Matt Эллен

that depends what you're looking at

not poisonous food gets learned about because of how many people die

Cerberus

But that never becomes mainstream.

Matt Эллен

10:21

what? not poisonous food is the most mainstream

Cerberus

Uhh.

You are saying many people think food x is poisonous even though it's not, right?

Matt Эллен

no. I mean people think that poisonous food is poinsonous

Cerberus

Okay, so...

Matt Эллен

and not poisonous food is not poisonous

@Cerberus so on the flip side, religion still has a huge hold over many people's lives. It is not right, but it is what supposed knowledgeable people preach

What is correct gets to the top by luck as much as by virtue of being right

When a heuristic seems to work, it gets passed on. Science gets ignored a lot because it's difficult to form heuristics around.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Yes, there are certain huge factors that may overshadow the influence of actual experts, of religion is the prime example. But that is a factor that is not specifically about food or grammar, so it could exert an influence over those areas based on its own "experts". But anyway, I consider a society where people follow religious practices that are harmful or contrary to easily proven facts stupid.

@MattЭллен But science does usually end up on top if there is no big intervening factor such as religion.

Matt Эллен

10:29

@Cerberus so that's all of them then.

@Cerberus when?

Cerberus

And I don't think religion or any other big extra-disciplinary factor is in play when it comes to grammar.

@MattЭллен When? Normally, most of the time, eventually.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus no. my point is that S&W must be easier to believe than fowler

Cerberus

And that is what I find so silly.

Matt Эллен

it's just how people work

Cerberus

If your friend who has a degree in English says it's crap, surely you wouldn't trust it?

And you would tell others that your friend says it's crap.

Matt Эллен

10:31

like, I don't know, someone believing that keeping an outdated OS is better than upgrading and having the advantage of accummulated knowlege

@Cerberus yes

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Well, if this person is intelligent and gives good arguments, then perhaps he is not wrong.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus lol

and how is one to tell between the right and the good argument?

RegDwigнt

0

A: Distinction: "What can I do you for?" vs. "What can I do for you?"

What am do? This time, we got the following crossword puzzle clue : What am do that also known as What am do? 3 letters . First, we gonna look for more hints to the What am do? crossword puzzle . Then we will collect all the require information and for solving What am do crossword . In the f...

wat

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus but, on the other hand, if a friend with an English degree says its crap, but that friend is known to say things are crap because they're a hipster, and the person with a linguistics degree says it's good for a style guide...

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Through a network/reputation effect combined with a little bit of intellect of one's own, like...on Ebay.

@RegDwigнt What am do.

@MattЭллен Yes, then it's different. But the situation is that everyone who knows stuff about language thinks it's crap, or that is the impression I get. I have only read some passages.

@MattЭллен But seriously, do you not believe in the general theory that the best things usually end up on top most of in a network of people, or even organisms?

That it is the exceptions that need to be explained, not the rule?

Matt Эллен

10:37

@Cerberus best?

Cerberus

Best.

Matt Эллен

most easily understood and still useful in someway

it's a trade off, in terms of intellectual things like S&W

For example: the rise to fame of "The Secret"

or "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus"

or Freud

Matt Эллен

10:56

@Cerberus I believe it for simple things, like food, but not for complicated things, like ideas.

Cerberus

11:21

@MattЭллен But was there a group of experts and intelligent people who knew better?

@MattЭллен I guess it's very complicated.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus at the time? I don't know. Now? Yes. Yet people still call themselves Freudian psychiatrists and the like.

And people still make a lot of money from it

Cerberus

Well, you could say Freudian psychiatry went down as more knowledge about psychology became available?

Those who call themselves Freudian psychiatrists now and have a medical degree are probably far removed from Freud's actual practices.

Right?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus It's difficult to quantify. Certainly, there is a more broad spectrum of types of counselling and therapy (that work) than there was back then. But there are still a large number of Freudian psychiatists

Cerberus

Just as modern enlightened Jews are far removed from the people and their beliefs in the Old Testament, even though they sometimes still profess the same things in their prayers.

@MattЭллен But are they as bad as Freud?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus perhaps. I don't actually know.

Cerberus

11:28

Knowledge about what a passive is has been around for millennia...

Matt Эллен

bbl - lunch

tchrist

@BraddSzonye I know Elizabeth well, much better than I know Arnold. Mention me to her sometime.

Mitch

@Cerberus S&W became popular because it was not stuffy and overbearing but very readable. Also, it's thin and fits in your pocket. And the content is great for high schoolers who have never written before.

Also it was written by the author of a favorite children's book. BTW someone dies at the end, I'm not sure if it's the pig or the spider or the little girl.

tchrist

It's the mouse.

Cerberus

@Mitch Fowler is a joy to read.

Oh, well.

@tchrist No, it's the gamepad.

Mitch

11:41

@Cerberus That is disgusting. What other inappropriate things do the Dutch call 'lekker'? clothes? cars? watches?

@Cerberus Does it fit in your pocket? Ha! I win!

Cerberus

@Mitch Most egregiously, people.

@Mitch Ehh I'll have to have to printed in 2pt and on very thin paper...

> Hoe gaat het? — Ja, lekker. ("Hoes goes it?" — "Well, lekker.")

Mitch

@MattЭллен They're different? notes that Matt thinks 'good' = 'left' Commie!

Cerberus

> Een lekker boek. ("A lekker (enjoyable) book.")

tchrist

Michael J Fox is surely an inspiration for those with Parkinson's, what with having it 13 years and still working. Too bad it didn’t work out that way for my dad, whom it killed in 14 months. Getting dressed for the funeral now.

Mitch

@Cerberus Yeah, that's nasty.

And by 'nasty' I mean 'nie lekker'

Cerberus

11:44

@Mitch It's very colloquial, and of a "popular" style that I would not affect.

tchrist

@Mitch That sort of thing is a disease vector.

Cerberus

> Maria is een lekker ding. ("Maria is a lekker (sexually attractive) thing.")

Mitch

@Cerberus S&W use it but only with the non-passive passive.

tchrist

ding ding ding

Cerberus

@tchrist Aww take care.

Crying in public is OK.

tchrist

11:45

There is nothing wrong with the aggressive passive.

Matt Эллен

@Mitch Just remember who the USA owes a lot of money to...

Cerberus

@Mitch There you go.

tchrist

It had best be ok. I have little choice.

Mitch

@tchrist The passive-aggressive voice.

Cerberus

Yeah.

How is your stepmother?

tchrist

11:46

My work sent a very nice arrangement of white flowers to my mother's home where I am staying.

Cerberus

Nice.

Mitch

@MattЭллен I know. lekker!

tchrist

My mom is taking it hard. My stepmother is taking it harder, and we are all collectively worried about her.

Mom and I were up till after 1am doing picture boards.

Cerberus

Keep an eye on her later, maybe send her to a shrink so she has someone she can eh talk to extra.

That's nice.

Mitch

@Cerberus Is it similar to German 'geil' or English 'hot'?

Matt Эллен

11:48

Lekker, bru

Cerberus

@Mitch I guess so, in a way.

But the point is that, with lekker, the sense "tasty food" is extended to other things, so the metaphor is still somewhat present.

So it's like you are eating, devouring, sucking.

I'm sure that's not what people actually think when they say "zij is lekker" ("she is lekker"), but something still clings to it.

So it is less perverse than hot.

Matt Эллен

Well, saying "She is tasty" is quite normal slang, in English

Cerberus

Which is really a prudish word, when you think about it.

@MattЭллен Exactly, like that!

Mitch

Hot is not perverse. It just means 'looks sexy'.

Preserves are not hot. But they are lecker. On a hot English muffin. mmmm....

Matt Эллен

@Mitch hot, as in "in heat"

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…