English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

14:00

"There are several words that mean virtuous, like all-American, all-New-Zealandish..."

MετάEd

Wow. DW needs more sugar in his coffee.

KitFox

Me too. brb

MετάEd

I just need coffee. Maybe I'll adulterate it also.

KitFox

Yeah, I changed my mind about the sugar after the shakes wore off.

I am still confounded by the insistence that a definition is reflexive.

Cerberus

14:24

A definition is reflexive? In what way?

KitFox

28 mins ago, by David Wallace

That would mean that all transparent things are clear, and all clear things are transparent.

Mitch

David does have a point. about definition. for SWRs. "What is a word for X?" "I think it is Y". That means the latter person thinks X=Y. And Reg has posted his annoyance at people who do that when they are really giving hyponyms or hypernyms.

KitFox

No, it is more than that.

David thinks that the person thinks X=Y and Y=X.

Cerberus

Oh, that.

That's complicated.

KitFox

Which is patently nonsensical.

37 mins ago, by David Wallace

@Mitch No. This person said Y is the answer because Y means Z. That implies that Z is equivalent to the X that was sought. That is, X=> Z AND Z=>X.

But I can't understand why a person would think that.

Cerberus

14:28

There is a lot of conversational implicature involved.

Implicature

Implicature is a technical term in the pragmatics subfield of linguistics, coined by H. P. Grice, which refers to what is suggested in an utterance, even though neither expressed nor strictly implied (that is, entailed) by the utterance. For example, the sentence "Mary had a baby and got married" strongly suggests that Mary had the baby before the wedding, but the sentence would still be strictly true if Mary had her baby after she got married. Further, if we add the qualification "— not necessarily in that order" to the original sentence, then the implicature is cancelled even though...

KitFox

So I am having some difficulty demonstrating why his conclusion is false.

Cerberus

An apple is a fruit, but a fruit is not necessarily an apple.

Mitch

1 min ago, by Cerberus

There is a lot of conversational implicature involved.

KitFox

Exactly.

Cerberus

Red is colourful, but colourful is not necessarily red.

However.

Mitch

14:29

@Cerberus A SWR is like this "Give me a synonym for fruit" and people tend to give answers like "Apple"

And the intentino by the answere is not that all fruits are apples, but that's how it reads.

KitFox

And David asserts that you would mean that all fruit is apple and apple is all fruit.

Cerberus

"All-American is a word that means virtuous" implies "Americans are virtuous", which in turn implies "American are more virtuous than other people". The implication is not cast iron, but it is still there.

Mitch

The raeding implicature is that the answerer is saying all fruits are apple.

Cerberus

@Mitch Heh.

KitFox

@Cerberus It might imply that. I don't agree, but it certainly doesn't mean that only and all Americans are virtuous.

Mitch

14:32

@Cerberus Kit already explained that the first implication is wrong.

I say your second is faulty reasoning too.

Cerberus

@KitFox Not only and all, but still.

Mitch

@KitFox But really, the implicature even if equality is inferred still isn't that american's are better than other people. That's just muddled.

KitFox

@Cerberus He was offended because he said the answer meant that.

Cerberus

@Mitch "America is virtuous", then.

KitFox

No! Not "America is virtuous".

Mitch

14:34

"all-american = has it all together" still doesn't mean "americans are better than non-americans"

KitFox

If you have these virtues, you embody the ideal American.

Cerberus

"There is something virtuous about America" is an obvious implication. Although I don't think anyone who says "all-American" would truly mean that; it's just an expression.

Mitch

@KitFox right, you mean Americans are this churned but not aged milk product.

KitFox

Butter?

Mitch

yeah, thanks, I was all out.

HIGH FIVE

Cerberus

14:36

"All-x" means "the pinnacle of x" to me. If the pinnacle of x is virtuous, than there must be something virtuous about x.

KitFox

@Cerberus When an American uses the term "all-American" they are talking about a virtuous person who is truly exemplary. There is absolutely no implication that that person is being compared to any non-American.

Cerberus

Depends on how you look at it.

KitFox

No, it doesn't.

Cerberus

I'm sure this person is not actively thinking of people from other countries at that moment.

Andrew Leach

It probably depends on whether you are American or not.

KitFox

14:37

I just said "When an American uses the term"

Andrew Leach

Yes: but that doesn't take into account non-Americans who encounter an American using the term.

KitFox

In the US, all-American is not used to compare Americans to non-Americans. It is used to compare Americans to Americans.

Mitch

Right. If you're non-american, you probably don't know what 'all-american' means, and so maybe think it means 'as much like a generic american as possible'

Cerberus

But saying "peaches taste very good" implies that they taste better than average, and that there must be many foods that taste worse than peaches.

@Mitch Well, that's what it is based on, after all.

KitFox

Yes, but in this case the virtuous person is better than average American, not better than average person.

Cerberus

14:39

Not "generic", though.

Mitch

@Cerberus Sure, but "good-peaches taste very good" only means that among peaches, these kind (the good pnes) are better than most peaches.

Cerberus

@KitFox He is more American than the average American, rather.

KitFox

No. Not that.

Mitch

I think DW is bothered that 'American' is used at all. That's the muddled part.

2

KitFox

@Cerberus Or not like that. He is closer to the ideal.

Mitch

14:40

guilt by association.

KitFox

So I guess, yes, maybe. More American, but not in the average sense, in the ideal sense.

Cerberus

@Mitch Yes. But "all" does not include "good": it is not positive in and of itself. It only becomes "good" when you add "American". So the sense of goodness must come from the "American" part, not the "all" part.

KitFox

All around

He's an all-around nice guy.

Mitch

peaches themselves are great. in fact other fruits don't stand in comparison.

Cerberus

"Nice" has the "good" element there.

Mitch

14:41

goddam fruitist.

Cerberus

Fruit.

KitFox

All star

All-star basketball player.

Mitch

"In the altogether".

KitFox

Doesn't mean he's better than Brits.

Cerberus

"Star" has the "good" element.

KitFox

14:43

Means he's better than other basketball players.

Cerberus

It implies a "star" is better than non-stars.

KitFox

all-purpose

Cerberus

Poor non-stars. Look at them, their feelings are hurt!

All-purpose does not express something good.

KitFox

all-terrain

Andrew Leach

@Cerberus This is exactly the point with All-American.

Cerberus

14:45

You could say "all-terrain" is short for "works on all kinds of terrain", which is inherently good, but mainly because of the "works" part.

Mitch

@Cerberus actually no, not at all.

Cerberus

@AndrewLeach Yeah. But it's an expression anyway.

Mitch

All-around geek.

KitFox

6 mins ago, by KitFox

Yes, but in this case the virtuous person is better than average American, not better than average person.

Mitch

all-around dickhead

Cerberus

14:46

@Mitch Is an all-around geek "good"?

Andrew Leach

@KitFox Unfortunately, that is not how the phrase is perceived outside America.

KitFox

Yes, well, does that matter?

The phrase means what it means.

Mitch

@AndrewLeach no it's muddled think. because americans are considered arrogant around the world, you're taking the association and applying to to all-american. That is a non-sequitur.

Cerberus

@AndrewLeach The implicature is independent of perspective in this case.

@Mitch Haha.

Patriotic, rather.

Mitch

@Cerberus he's very good at being a geek. I don't know what you think of geeks, they aregenerally looked down upon.

KitFox

14:47

My grandfather is niggardly. That doesn't mean I'm racist for saying so.

Andrew Leach

@Mitch It's not a non-sequitur. It's a consequence.

Cerberus

We can say "Hollands" to mean "good" in Dutch.

KitFox

And then there's the mensch answer, and you might just as well use Christian. It's all the same.

Mitch

@AndrewLeach it's a non-sequitur because the meaning of 'all-american' assumes within the american culture that it is taking local virtues of americans. not what a non-american perceives to be american.

Cerberus

"Echte Hollandse nuchterheid" means "all-Dutch down-to-earthness". It is beyond a doubt positive, and it is based on the fact that the Dutch consider themselves down to earth, and that they consider this a virtue in general. That is much the same as "an all-American guy".

KitFox

14:50

You are an extreme bigot.

Cerberus

It's just a patriotic expression.

And it can also be used ironically, of course. It usually will be.

Mitch

@Cerberus Holland isn't so great. I mean, have you ever had their cheese? Blech. In Gronigen, toe-jam is called 'Holland-cheese' for a reason.

user87637

A bigot is someone with a big XXX, LOL.

Cerberus

But I can't deny that it implies that other people are less down to earth.

@Mitch How dare you!!

Mitch

@Cerberus so do you consider that would be offensive to non-Dutch?

Cerberus

14:51

*Groningen

user87637

I have started a new blog, though I won't be writing much.

Cerberus

@Mitch Of course not. But in some situations it can be annoying or silly.

Mitch

@Cerberus oops. You're not from...er... somewhere hollandisch are you? Holland is down near Maastricht, right?

Andrew Leach

Anyway, home calls...

KitFox

@Cerberus It means you think that only Dutch people are down to earth.

Cerberus

14:53

And I think the virtue "all-Dutch down-to-earthness" is less wide in scope than the virtues suggested by "all-American".

@KitFox It implies that non-Dutch people are less down to earth in general, yes.

KitFox

See, I disagree.

It implies that Dutch culture values groundedness.

I don't think it implies anything at all about other cultures.

Cerberus

@Mitch Uhh no. Holland is most of the western coast. But in this case I used Hollands to mean "Dutch", not of the former province of Holland.

user87637

I think I should read Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion. Anyone here read it?

KitFox

I've read The Selfish Gene, but not the other.

Cerberus

@KitFox Why not? It does to me.

user87637

14:55

Ah, I am beginning to see the stupidity of religions X, Y and Z very much these few days.

KitFox

@Cerberus Same way if I say "This cloth is a lovely blue", it doesn't imply things about other fabrics.

Mitch

@Cerberus yeah, because America is a lot bigger. We are so great we could throw away parts bigger and better than the Netherlands and not notice. We are so good at making beer and chocolate in mass quantities, ... wait, I don't know where I'm going with this.

@KitFox No it means they like dirt.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Robusto sounds good.

KitFox

Or "I like the crunchiness of this candy bar", it says nothing about other candy bars.

user87637

Hey @cornbreadninja麵包忍者 ping ping!

Cerberus

14:56

@KitFox It implies "other cloths are less lovely-blue on average" to me, or the phrase would be meaningless. "This man is small" implies that other men are less small on average, or why else say it? Any adjective implies "more [adjective] than the average".

Mitch

@Jasper I thnk you only need one variable there, unless you mean the set of three possibly distinct religions at a time.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@MattЭллен :D

Mitch

@KitFox You goddam candy bar hater... er ... lover.... whatever you think of them.

KitFox

@Cerberus I don't agree. It is an expression of my subjective feelings about a specific instance.

user87637

@Mitch Yes, you should be able to guess X, Y and Z. Shh...

Cerberus

14:57

@Mitch Maybe they'll throw away your part of the country...careful.

@KitFox Sure, it's subjective. But it is still comparing something to the average.

KitFox

It doesn't exclude the potential of loveliness about other cloths and colors.

Cerberus

True.

user87637

@Mitch I think X, Y and Z have ruined so many lives...

Mitch

@Cerberus we have so many parts of country that they could throw them away and I'd always have a place left. Except for New Jersey. That place wouldn't be missed.

Cerberus

But it does imply that it's lovely-bluer than the average.

KitFox

14:58

And the comparison with "average" only applies to a very specific subset.

Of blue cloths, any number of which could also be equally lovely, for the same or different reasons.

Cerberus

@Mitch I'll buy New England. It looks nice.

Mitch

@Jasper I know! All those Vikings are dead now. Ragnoarok came sooner than they thought like in about 1500.

Cerberus

@KitFox If all blue cloths are equally lovely, why call one particular cloth lovely?

Mitch

@Cerberus Boardwalk. If you land on Boardwalk buy it. no matter what.

user87637

@Mitch Poisoning a man's mind with lies is the greatest destruction of all. I have many friends whose minds have been poisoned.

Cerberus

15:00

No, it implies that it is lovelier than some other blue cloths.

@Mitch Who is that, and why would I land on her?

KitFox

And to say that "This is a lovely blue cloth" means that I think this blue cloth is implicitly superior to all other fabrics and I'm therefore a bigot, is just silly.

@Cerberus It is an expression of my subjective feelings about a specific instance. Maybe I want you to know that it makes me feel good to look at it.

Cerberus

Superior to all, yes, that is far too strong an implication. And using something that's just an expression does not make one a bigot, of course.

KitFox

Or that I wouldn't mind having a dress made from it.

Mitch

@Jasper people get their panties in a twist for a lot of weird mystical things. Most religions provide a lot of education, just basic reasoning. Otherwise their myths would be inchoate.

Yes, I just learned that word.

KitFox

Inchoate?

Or reasoning?

user87637

15:02

@Mitch Guess what? I learned it a few weeks ago!

KitFox

;-)

Cerberus

Yes, but you would normally say that because it stimulates those feelings more than other cloths.

KitFox

@Cerberus Not necessarily.

And no, I don't think 'normally'. I can think of lots of contexts where that would not imply a comparison.

Cerberus

@KitFox An implication is never necessary.

KitFox

I disagree with your assumption that there is a requisite underlying comparison.

Cerberus

15:04

You can say, "this cloth is lovely, but everything is lovely", thereby blocking the implication.

KitFox

A cloud is fluffy because it is, not because it is fluffier than other things.

Cerberus

No?

Other things are equally fluffy?

Like houses, people, trees?

KitFox

I'm sure there are other equally fluffy things.

Cerberus

Sure.

But the average thing will be less fluffy.

KitFox

A cloud's fluffiness doesn't preclude the ability of other things to be fluffy in their own context.

Cerberus

15:05

Indeed not.

KitFox

So how does that make me a bigot?

Cerberus

I think we agree on that part.

KitFox

An ideal American is defined by American ideals.

Cerberus

I saw a female woman.

We only use the word female when it adds information; and it only adds information when other things mights not be female.

So a female dog is a useful utterance by virtue of other dogs' being male.

KitFox

But not all other dogs.

And not only dogs.

Cerberus

15:08

But not all other dogs.

And not only dogs.

It implies something about the average, that the average is not female by default.

KitFox

No, I don't think it does.

Not about the average. About the instance.

It is important that gender is defined on this instance of dog.

Cerberus

If people were generally female, why say "a female person"? It wouldn't add any information.

KitFox

So I should assume that you mean "female" when you say person, since the majority of people are females?

Because I don't.

Cerberus

Not the majority, but people by default.

You only add "female" if there is a meaningful contrast.

KitFox

I would assume that you specified gender because it was important.

Cerberus

15:11

If there is no non-female, you don't need to use the word "female" ever.

KitFox

Sure. But not average. Because female is average.

Cerberus

So "female" always implies "contrasting with non-female".

KitFox

Right. But that's got nothing to do with averages.

Cerberus

This was just about how an adjective implies something about the set of things.

KitFox

Sure.

Cerberus

15:13

That there are non-[adjective] things in the set.

Or at least less-[adjective].

KitFox

And all-American is drawn from the set of all Americans.

Cerberus

What is I say "laziness is un-American"?

KitFox

What about it?

Cerberus

It is of course a figure of speech, so it might not mean much in practice.

But the original implication behind it is that America is not lazy.

KitFox

No, it's not.

The implication is that good Americans are industrious.

Cerberus

15:15

Idealised America is typically industrious.

KitFox

Right.

Cerberus

The epitome of America is industriousness.

KitFox

un-American doesn't mean "all other nationalities embrace laziness", it means "An ideal American rejects laziness".

It has nothing to do with other nationalities.

Cerberus

I think we're going round in circles.

It is similar to "a Christian hour".

KitFox

I don't understand what you are getting at then, I guess.

Cerberus

15:18

It implies that Christianity is virtuous. A real Christian would not go out at such a late hour.

A real American is not lazy, because laziness is un-American.

But it's just an expression anyway.

KitFox

A good Christian would not do so, but it says nothing about non-Christians.

The implicit comparison is between the "good" and the "not good" exemplars of the group, not between the group and the non-group.

If you are the head of your class, that means others in your class are not, but it doesn't exclude non-class members from being head of their class or from not belonging to any class.

Cerberus

@KitFox If that is so, then why not say "a decent hour" instead of "a Christian hour"?

KitFox

@Cerberus Why not say "early" or "before 7pm"?

Cerberus

It implies to me that Christianity is virtuous.

@KitFox What do you mean?

KitFox

It implies to me that being in bed by 8pm (or whatever) is a Christian virtue.

Cerberus

15:26

That, too.

It has multiple implications, of course.

But that is an implication at a different level.

KitFox

That's the only implication I get from it.

Cerberus

But anyway, I think we have arrived at the point where we agree to disagree, don't you agree?

KitFox

Sure. Lunchtime anyway.

I guess it's like how "A good boy washes his socks daily" doesn't tell me anything about what girls do.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Is that why he deserves fudge (or favour)?

►

Cerberus

@KitFox But that's different. You should compare it to "a real boy washes his socks daily".

The location of the "good" semantic element is key: if you add "good", then that messes it up. In *all-American", I would argue that "good" is located inside "American".

Even though that is not very relevant when people just use it as an expression, etc. etc.

KitFox

15:41

@Cerberus Well, that still tells me nothing about what girls do.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 No, but maybe what he needs to empty garbage before daddy flips.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@KitFox I like that one!

Cerberus

@KitFox It tells you that people who not real boys are less likely to exhibit the virtue of washing their socks daily.

KitFox

@Cerberus I think "good" is implied, because it is referring to the ideal, not the average.

Cerberus

Hey, what do you call it when a vacuum...disappears?

Hmm.

KitFox

Theft.

Oh.

It gets filled?

Cerberus

15:44

@KitFox Hah, hah.

KitFox

@Cerberus It tells me that boys who are not real boys, etc.

Intragroup comparison.

Cerberus

It also tells me that a typical, real boy possesses this virtue more so than certain others.

But let's agree to disagree.

KitFox

Sure. That's what I was saying, in a sense. An ideal American exhibits virtues to a greater degree than other Americans.

Cerberus

When vacuum gets filled because the metal case breaks, the device self-destructs?

I don't know.

Maybe is breached.

KitFox

Breach sounds more like crossing over.

A seal is breached, not a vacuum.

Oh, but maybe When a vacuum seal is breached because the metal case breaks, the device self-destructs?

Cerberus

15:48

@KitFox Yeah, it is far from perfect. I was rather thinking of a vacuum as a pure and desired state that can be violated.

KitFox

Vacated?

Cerberus

@KitFox That would be better, but there isn't an actual seal.

KitFox

Too many vs.

Cerberus

Haha, a vacated vacuum.

KitFox

When the case is breached, it self-destructs. ftfy

@Matty!

Cerberus

15:53

Yeah, but I needed to mention the vacuum.

> Exactly. You could use a separate device instead of the phone and QR code. The device would send a one-time code to the password manager if you type in the correct, short pin code on the device.

After three failed attempts, it locks up for an hour and sends you an e-mail and a text message, "three failed attempts". The device would be made such that opening it destroys it: if its internal sensor detects that the vacuum inside its metal case has been breached (in as much as a vacuum can be "breached"...), it erases itself immediately.

KitFox

Probably the all-British orc can help you.

Cerberus

!

I'm sure the Brits have a similarly patriotic phrase...

KitFox

Fails to detect a vacuum?

Matt Эллен

Whut? I r phone orc. Need more splainin

Cerberus

Actually, they will say "that's not very English" to mean "that's not good".

KitFox

15:54

See? That doesn't mean all non-English people are not good.

Cerberus

With emphasis on English.

It does imply that Englishness is generally better than its absence.

Circle!

KitFox

Doesn't.

Cerberus

And hello, Englishman.

KitFox

That's not very yellow.

You're not acting very doglike.

Matt Эллен

We say "that's just not cricket" if someone isn't playing fair

Hello foxy fox and demon dog

KitFox

15:58

@MattЭллен Ha! But that says nothing about the state of non-cricketers! This is what I'm saying! It's an intragroup comparison.

Cerberus

@KitFox How dare you!

KitFox

Although I think we are in agreement that X implies Y does not mean that Y implies X, right, pooch?

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Right!

@KitFox Probably.

Matt Эллен

It assumes everyone is a cricketer, that's true.

KitFox

A square is a rectangle never means that a rectangle is a square.

Not by logic standards.

Cerberus

16:01

But "a linear function is a function described by ax+b" is reciprocal.

KitFox

@MattЭллен You are so not cricket. Or English.

But you are definitely all-American.

Cerberus

!

In logic, -> is logical implication, <=> is reciprocal implication.

KitFox

@Cerberus Not exactly. Is that the only linear function? Is that the only way to describe ax+b?

2 + 2 = 4 also means that 4 = 2 + 2, but there is no exclusivity to that definition.

Cerberus

What I mean is that it is practically the same as "a function described by ax+b is a linear function".

KitFox

Oh, yes. Of course that's what you mean.

Cerberus

16:04

agrees to disagree with self

Matt Эллен

Bah! I'm very British, thank you very much.

KitFox

giggles

I feel like I've been personally attacked for supporting the notion that blue is a good word for sad.

Because that means I'm some kind of bigot against yellow.

Which, of course, means cowardly anyway.

Matt Эллен

Blue is a good word for sad

KitFox

Or Asian, I suppose. But I think that's considered racist? Like for Native Americans "red" is racist, right?

Cerberus

'Tis a black day.

You know David is very easy to offend sometimes.

KitFox

16:08

My heart bleeds.

Cerberus

By a phrase that is something between harmless and silly or possibly annoying.

KitFox

I'm probably safe as houses anyway, what with the NSA keeping tabs on me.

No offense to apartment dwellers.

Cerberus

All-American surveillance.

deeply offended apartment dweller

Matt Эллен

I feel somewhat safer in my flat because I'm higher up.

KitFox

You think you're above me? Bigot!

Matt Эллен

16:13

Well, not right now. I'm on a train.

And I'm probably further south than you, too.

Cerberus

That I doubt.

Where are you?

KitFox

@MattЭллен On my way to work two days ago, I saw a bicyclist who'd been hit by a car. I thought of you in a mentally-protective-gesture sort of way.

Matt Эллен

Nearing slough

KitFox

ick

Cerberus

What slough?

KitFox

16:16

omg, that's actually a place?

Oh that's gross.

Matt Эллен

Not you, Cerb. Further south than Kit

She's practically Canadian

Cerberus

KitFox

And no, I'm completely south of the UK.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Thanks. In what country are you? Because New England is below Paris.

Mitch

@KitFox No no not reasoning, that word that's goes in soup to make it even tastier.

KitFox

16:17

Haha

Not seasoning, that thing you put in bread to make it rise.

Matt Эллен

Oh! I didn't realise. In that case I'm totally above you

KitFox

sniffs haughtily

Cerberus

I thought cocaine was illegal in your country.

Oh, wait, it's illegal here.

KitFox

Haughtily != cocaine.

Matt Эллен

What can I say? The UK is just better.

KitFox

16:20

You would say so.

Cerberus

No lazy abbreviations in this chat!

KitFox

whtevr

Cerberus

...

Matt Эллен

America's heraldic animal is an eagle. The UK's are a lion, a unicorn and a dragon.

KitFox

is it sth. I said?

@MattЭллен Right. Ours is real, and yours are all made up.

snicker

suppresses giggle

aedia λ

16:24

I'm not a Harold!

Matt Эллен

You want @aedia to hear you say that ;-)

But are you a herald of things to come?

My phone is rapidly losing charge, so I'll be back later

Cerberus

Noooo...

KitFox

16:44

Nooooo!!!!

Wait, what?

MετάEd

16:59

@KitFox No, no, not leavening. You're thinking of the Big House.

KitFox

Leavenworth? More like the syrup lady.

Cerberus

17:21

►

Being attacked by an elephant.

They actually trumpet.

KitFox

Does that surprise you?

washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/08/29/…

So it's really all over then.

Resistance is futile.

aedia λ

17:38

Prepare to be assimilated!

KitFox

annihilate annihilate annihilate

EX—TER—MIN—ATE!

deletes entire site

Mitch

@KitFox actually "that's not very English (or American or whatever)" -does- mean that's not good.

@KitFox No no not leavening, that thing you use to make biscuits rise but sounds the opposite.

KitFox

@Mitch It doesn't mean that non-English is not good. It means that the behavior is not within the boundaries of good behavior for the specified culture.

Which was the entire basis of our discussion. Whether it was a in-group comparison or a group-to-non-group comparison.

And we still pretty much disagree on that point.

MετάEd

18:15

@KitFox Mrs Butterworth? No, no. You're thinking of that really great city in Texas.

KitFox

@MετάEd I had no idea Fort Worth was a really great city. I was thinking of that word that means having determination.

And also...later. I'm out for a few days.

MετάEd

@KitFox Ok!

RegDwighт

@MattЭллен here's a heraldic animal for you.

In other news, I'm on an all-new keyboard, so expect a lot of nonsense.

aedia λ

@KitFox Enjoy the weekend!

user87637

18:44

@RegDwighт No animal for me? Sad panda...

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