People who do weirdo things for made-up godlings that aren’t even there have no place calling regular people freaks.

Nice try.

And predictable.

No need to flag that, David. Fight back with words.

You can’t be calling people names like that.

Or shrug.

Beware the cows.

@Cerberus Why should I bother?

watches guests frantically trying to understand transcript

@DavidWallace I wouldn't...just ignore it.

Guys

With the flagging...

There's a difference between discussing one person, whom I happen to know well enough to talk about this way, and who would self-identify as a freak, and insulting 1.8 billion reasonable people.

Why don't you just kill each other?

@OliverSalzburg Excuse me?

Is that legal here?

@DavidWallace An insult is what you make it.

If you decide that you don't care, it disappears.

@Cerberus There have been a couple of flags on messages in this room recently ;)

Yes, so I noticed...

I was joking though, please don't kill each other

phew

I don't think I have ever flagged anyone in this room...

@Cerberus It doesn't. A few hours ago, there was a new user here, who is PROBABLY the same religion as me. What is SHE supposed to think, coming here seeing remarks insulting her religion? This is what flags are FOR!

@DavidWallace Why is it an insult? People make jokes about stuff all the time, also in ways that perhaps some other people might not like.

Referring to 1.8 billion of my brothers and sisters as "people who do weirdo things for made-up godlings that aren’t even there" - how is this not an insult, both to the One True God and to all His followers?

I mean, I am not encouraging that kind of line. It was spiteful.

@DavidWallace Why would it be an insult, instead of a joke?

It's not a joke. He clearly means it.

Either it is a joke and it is fairly harmless, if spiteful; or it is his true opinion, in which case he should be allowed to say it.

Just as I mean it when I call the person we were discussing earlier a freak. But that person and I have called each other far worse in the past.

So?

@Cerberus You could say that about any remark. If no remark is ever considered offensive, what is the purpose of flags?

I think the point is, what some take as a joke, others consider an insult (and rightly so).. If multiple people in this room have flagged posts then obviously quite a few people consider it an insult.

The fact that something is undesirable or annoying doesn't mean it has to be killed or destroyed.

And if Tom is offended by my remarks about Nathan, he is welcome to flag THOSE.

This is where the irony of flags comes in... >.<

@DavidWallace I would say to counter strong personal insults, or spam. But, actually, you have the freedom to put him on ignore. You choose not to do so.

Flags, as I see it, are meant to bring attention to content that is undesirable within the ruleset defined by our site

@Cerberus So, what of the users who come here and discover one of Tom's anti-Islamic rants, and are thus offended? Who stands up for them?

If you feel personally offended, feel free to flag, but don't get your hopes up

@Seth I wouldn't take the opinion of a few flaggers as the consensus.

@DavidWallace Would you call that an anti-Islamic rant?

I know this sounds unkind, but I think it's better if people have thick skins rather than short triggers.

@OliverSalzburg I'm not getting my hopes up. It makes very little difference to me whether Tom is kicked out for 30 minutes, or for 24 hours (following the KitFox rule) or not at all. But I will not have people coming here and thinking that this is a room where insulting other people's religion is acceptable.

@Cerberus You wouldn't, but others will.

Just putting my hand up and saying "this is unacceptable" makes the room more welcoming to those who are not of the same ilk as Tom.

@DavidWallace I rather think it is needlessly spiteful and ad-hominem against you: I would not consider than an insult against other people. I mean, we say negative things about tons of other groups here, like Americans, Republicans, Europeans, Christians, Jews, gays, women...

Are all of those things insults?

@Cerberus Maybe we should all be conscientious enough to flag those things more often.

@Seth Sure, I would like it to be. I think that line was out of place. But I don't think it should be censored.

I don't care whom he insults. The fact that I happen to be the target of the insult is irrelevant to me. Better people than Tom have insulted me before.

@DavidWallace Or maybe we should value freedom of speech and tolerance enough not to flag such things.

@DavidWallace I understand, and I would always handle any flag taking into account if the flagged message may be insulting to other users regardless of them being about religion or any other topic. But, personally, I also fail to see how an opinion regarding someones religion is different from an opinion regarding someones political views.

@DavidWallace And isn't shrugging or saying "you're pathetic" more...practical?

@OliverSalzburg Agreed.

Like, I wouldn't want to delete a message just because someone said Obama is stupid

I was once suspended for saying "Iphones are gay". There was little or no context.

@OliverSalzburg How dare you!!

@Cerberus But he doesn't listen. Like when you were telling him yesterday how his remarks were inappropriate, and he countered by calling you a fruitcake.

@DavidWallace Yes, well, I'm not saying I like it when people are being like that.

But I don't need to flag it.

@OliverSalzburg Obama is ONE man. There's a difference between saying "Obama is stupid" and saying "Muslims are stupid".

I can also put him on ignore.

Or just ignore him.

@Cerberus I strongly considered flagging it yesterday, and decided against it.

@DavidWallace Good point, I could have said "liberals are stupid" or "democrats are stupid" though.

Thanks for not flagging it.

I mean, people make jokes about how Europeans stink because they don't wash themselves.

Am I supposed to be offended by that?

It's about how this room is viewed by people other than you, me and Tom. Remember that guy Chris who came here after Tom had insulted him somewhere else? He had a really valid point.

Or by my own remarks about gays?

@DavidWallace Hmm I don't remember.

So, this room could EITHER be a welcoming place where new users like to come; or it can be the room where Cerberus, David and Tom all come and insult each other, along with whatever other minorities they feel like insulting. Which would YOU prefer?

You know what I prefer...

@Cerberus Actually, I do not.

A room without censorship, where people call each other out on perceived inappropriate remarks rather than censoring them.

Who said anything about censorship? The point of flagging is to say "this kind of remark is unacceptable".

Don't you think it sends a rather strong signal to an outsider if you challenge an inappropriate line rather than try to censor it?

I thought the point of flagging was to ask for censorship?

@Cerberus And spend the next two hours bashing my head against a brick wall, like when you claimed to know what daylight was?

@DavidWallace The "usual" response to a flag is having the message deleted. That could be considered censorship, I guess

But the one how censors is the one who deletes, not the one who flags

@DavidWallace The wise thing to do, of which I am not always capable, is just saying you disagree in one or two lines, then ignore it.

Well, I guess flagging serves more than one purpose then. But for me, it's not about the censorship.

If flagging is just about sending a message...

@Cerberus So I write "I disagree that Muslims are weirdos" and "I disagree that God does not exist". What happens next?

Isn't posting one or two disapproving lines an even stronger message?

@Cerberus If it stopped at one or two lines, sure. But when does any debate with Tom stop at one or two lines?

@DavidWallace No, as in: "Wow. That's rude. You're out of line."

@DavidWallace As I said, you/I should be wise and stop after one or two lines, regardless of what the other party does.

You know I know it's hard!

@Cerberus Not hard. Just ineffective. I know when it's a brick wall that my head is encountering.

How many times have you and I had this exact same dialogue, after Tom oversteps the line?

But the goal is sending a message to outsiders, not convincing the other party, right?

Right. So one or two lines from you or me then gets lost in several screenfuls of rant.

I think we have had it a few times, but not only about him.

And flags don't get lost?

Besides, can new users even see flags?

10k-?

I don't know the answers to those questions.

@Cerberus I think only moderators and room owners can see flags. Not too sure about the second group though

The only occasion that I remember when it was NOT about Tom, it was I who was banned.

@OliverSalzburg I seem to remember seeing flags when I broke the 10K barrier...

I am neither the owner of this room nor a moderator.

And I see them.

@DavidWallace And how about when you got me banned?

Humm, okay

When you were incognito?

Oh, yeah, I forgot that.

Sorry.

Haha.

Look, I think we're nearly always nice to new users in this room.

Anyway, it's the moderators' decision. If my flags were frivolous, they would not lead to anything.

And I don't see how flagging things is going to change things. It doesn't work preemptively.

@Cerberus I don't think so. Chris is a case in point.

I can't believe you don't remember.

I still don't know who that was.

Wait, was he the guy who was in some kind of comment fight with someone?

About 10 months ago, I think. I'll see if I can find the transcript.

Nah, don't bother.

Was it that guy?

I think comments are a more serious problem.

They're more permanent, and they affect new users more.

It's a fundamental right that I can, and will, laugh at anything I want, including and especially you, David. But what I will not tolerate is your insulting lies. Everything you have said regarding "Islamic rants" is either 100% lie or 100% delusion, or some combination thereof. Its only purpose is to stir up trouble. Cut it out.

Anti-Islamic rants.

Same thing.

And it’s a lie.

I don't recall seeing those either...but you're not exactly helping.

I can use longer words than lie if you think it will help.

I feel that at least all rude behaviour should be treated the same, whether it be about religion, sex, grammar, politics, noses, or whatever.

And I think David disagrees.

That whole tirade about Fatima was pure fruitbat territory.

I have nothing against fruitbats.

Only the rabies they may carry.

prepares bellylaughter

I am allowed to laugh at you, David. If you can’t take somebody laughing at you, you’ve become a medieval again.

You are welcome to laugh at me, Tom. Heaven knows, it would not be unreciprocated.

Heaven knows nothing, because it does not exist.

An interesting opinion. You may feel differently on the Day of Judgement.

That’s pretty offensive.

Then flag it.

I find your constant pushing of your religion on people very offensive.

Please stop.

HAMMERTIME!

Caprica, I agree!!

I have asked you nicely.

I asked with please.

Now quit it.

Why don't you each put the other on ignore.

That's what the button is for.

Every time he says something offensive, I am going to flag it.

Every single time.

Can you quote a single instance of my "pushing my religion on people"?

Yes.

Every time you mention your mythology.

Oh, so by "pushing on people", you mean "mentioning". Thanks for the clarification.

It is very offensive to pretend that you have a “One True God”.

It has no business here.

Please stop it.

If I wanted to live in medieval fear of being burned at the stake for not taking your bellylaugh seriously, I would move to the Middle Ages.

You’re being obsessive.

So you find the beliefs of all Christians, Jews, Muslims and Hare Krishna adherents offensive? How do you manage to live in this world?

I don’t know them.

I only know you.

And in you, it is offensive.

Pleases go find a room where you can rant about your madeup spookery. This is ELU Chat, not Holy Spook Rant room.

You live in USA and I am the only person you know who follows one of the four religions I just mentioned? Sometimes, your remarks are difficult to believe.

No, only you.

Stop dragging your mummery around like it is something it isn’t.

This is coming from T. Christ himself...

Pharisees did that, and look what it got them.

@OliverSalzburg It’s the name I was born with.

@DavidWallace So I read the conversation with Chris again.

@tchrist You are actually citing the Bible to back up your string of insults? Interesting strategy.

@tchrist So you're not related to J. Christ?

I think the greatest damage was done in those comments. And I also think Tchrist's behaviour was mainly rude and condescending, but he wasn't insulting groups of people or anything.

So, if anything, he should have been flagged for being rude on a personal level.

I really am past the tipping point here with David.

And yet you don't put him on ignore.

He comes here every single day and drops snide remarks constantly, just trying to piss me off.

And you?

I will henceforth fag each and every offensive thing he says. Every time. It doesn’t matter when it is to me or to a group or too his spooks. He gets flagged.

Just put him on ignore and get over it.

You have a maximum number of flags...

Yeah, does that work with him?

No.

Don’t worry about that.

Tom, you are the one who has just used the words "mythology", "Holy Spook Rant" and "mummery" to describe the beliefs of a huge number of people. Somehow, you don't see your own behaviour as offensive? All I can imagine is that you are trolling.

@tchrist Click on his name. Do it now. Click "Ignore".

He’s an asshole. Why do I have to appease an asshole?

@DavidWallace Why don't you do the same.

@DavidWallace: lease put him on the ignore list.

That's what it's for!

And now for something completely different.

@Mitch So that I lose the opportunity to stand up for those he insults? Like I said, I don't care if he insults me. I feel for those people who come here and find his anti-religion rants. Those people won't be helped by me ignoring him.

Look at that crap?

So Cerb, have you seen the documentary about the two old twin prostitutes in Amsterdam?

He pretends that there is stuff here there isn’t. He’s on a holy jihad against something that isn’t there.

Most of the regular users of this room see him in full flight and say "oh, it's just Tom being Tom again". But those who are not regulars don't get that liberty.

Cerberus is about a billion times more anti-religion than I am.

@DavidWallace I understand your problem but it's really not worth the trouble.

It’s you, David, who are the joke.

@DavidWallace Why is it offensive to you when someone publicly criticizes your religious beliefs? Like, how does it have an impact on your believes? How does it matter?

There is no “anti-religion rant” from me.

@Mitch I think the incident with Chris indicates that it IS worth the trouble.

And there never has been.

I'm just asking because you seem to have a strong opinion regarding this matter

@tchrist What was the last half hour of your comments then, if not an anti-religion rant?

But you are winding me up to one.

@Mitch No! But I have heard about it. Is it fun?

Hah.

You don’t even know what a rant is, clearly.

@OliverSalzburg There's what is said and how it is said.

@DavidWallace I don't know that incident.

You follow a nutty made-up silliness that doesn’t matter and just causes people to get hurt. That is no skin off my nose. I just am tired of you pushing it on the rest of us.

It does not belong here.

I am tired of hearing about your delusions.

Not anybody else’s.

@Mitch True. But sometime people just don't know how to express themselves appropriately. Like, some of us here aren't even native english speakers

"Nutty made up silliness". How are you not being offensive?

@tchrist How does David cause people to get hurt?

That is not offensive. It is truth.

That is YOUR opinion.

@tchrist You seem to be hurting people's feelings more.

@Cerberus Well, I was considering, but there was a Korean-Chinese heist movie on instead. Prostitutes or action adventure? Flipped a coin.

@Cerberus You misparsed that.

Please keep your mythology to yourself. Please.

What more do I have to do?

Go get a room or something.

@Mitch How many coins did you have to flip until you were allowed to not watch the naked old women?

I know they have places for your kind of person.

@OliverSalzburg I live in a society where people of my religion are abused wherever I go. People throw stones at our mosques. They hurl racist remarks at women in hijab. I don't tolerate it at home, and I don't tolerate it here. I can handle Tom calling me an idiot. Or asshole, or whatever. I don't think 1.8 billion other Muslims should have to though.

@OliverSalzburg Sure, that's in interesting point and hopefully people take that into account, but that happens to be irrelevant in the current case.

He is just dragging in those billions of others to pretend he has a leg to stand on.

@tchrist How dare you insult the Greek pantheon, and, more importantly, me!

He doesn’t.

It isn’t about them.

This is the classic thing that these people do: pretend that you have insulted things that aren’t there.

@DavidWallace Do they really do that? That's terrible.

@Cerberus Shit, I missed that?

If you cannot stand to have your religion laughed at, that is your problem, not the people laughing at you.

@Mitch Hah, pretend you didn't know. Former prostitutes. Why did you think they had stopped?

This is why we banned all that crap in this country.

@Cerberus Yes. There are three mosques that I regularly attend. Two of them are heavily disguised, so that nobody would know they are mosques, unless told so. The third is a frequent target of vandalism, ranging from graffiti to rocks through windows.

@Cerberus needs more commas?

And women in hijab, and people accompanying them, are subject to frequent abuse.

@DavidWallace That's really bad. But you know none of us would do that, not even Tchrist.

"Why, did you think they had stopped?"

@Cerberus Um....

@Cerberus He does exactly the same thing with his words.

@DavidWallace Words aren't rocks...