English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

03:00

Paideia is feminine.

tchrist

Yeah, I know.

I just was thinking of the nameless multitudes.

Cerberus

Everaert and Van Riemsdijk, interesting.

tchrist

Easy for you to say.

Cerberus

Two respectable Dutch names working on English syntax.

Respectable as in very U.

tchrist

I can say Moro.

Cerberus

03:05

?

tchrist

The other ref.

Those are easy for you to say because they are Dutch.

Cerberus

Sure.

tchrist

Moro is easy for me to say because, well, it’s easy. :)

Cerberus

Righttt.

At any rate, that bishop is a loony, surprise surprise.

tchrist

yep

Cerberus

03:07

Even in Latin, you can use it.

tchrist

Can, not must.

Most of the time you don’t.

Cerberus

That is, because oportet normally takes an infinitive, the appropriate dummy subject is id.

And, when you use id, it does not refer back to anything.

tchrist

When pro-drop languages say something no importa, they aren’t thinking of a specific pronoun.

Cerberus

It works exactly as in English: it is a bit redundant and it points forward, to the infinitive.

It gives added emphasis.

tchrist

If you forced them, they would choose a neuter demonstrative, like eso, not a neuter pronoun like ello.

Well, probably.

Cerberus

03:09

As in... what's important is to feed the ducks before daybreak. Meaning-wise.

tchrist

Sometimes Italian does a more amorphic French bit.

It’s important to feed the ducks.

Feeding the ducks is important.

Cerberus

But my what's... adds emphasis.

Using id in Latin gives a similar emphasis.

tchrist

So would The important thing is to feed the ducks

Cerberus

And the pointing forward that the bishop criticised happens in Latin.

@tchrist Yes, but there you don't have the emphatic variation.

tchrist

Not sure I see what you mean.

Cerberus

03:12

Cicero dixit (id) oportere lectionis simplicis meminisse.

The id adds emphasis.

tchrist

Because you don’t need it.

Right?

So putting it in makes it an emphatic.

Cerberus

Yes.

I can't write a pair of sentences in English with the important thing where one adds extra emphasis over the other. I can with is important.

tchrist

That’s what always happens in pro-drop languages, I think.

Cerberus

Yes.

tchrist

It is a dummy it in a way that really doesn’t happen in IT/ES/PT.

Cerberus

03:15

Ce qui importe, c'est que...

tchrist

Except by sticking in a demonstrative pronoun "that".

But notice the mandatory c’ of French, because it isn’t pro-drop.

Cerberus

@tchrist Probably not.

@tchrist Yes.

tchrist

Lo que importa es que . . . .

Cerberus

The interesting thing in the Germanic languages is subordinate clauses.

tchrist

Lo importante es que . . . .

Es importante que . . . .

Importa que . . . .

The last doesn’t sound right without something like me or no in front of it. Hm.

@Cerberus Why? Where? How?

Cerberus

03:19

Trying to think of a good example...

It is unfair to criticise her => criticising her, which is unfair, ...

It is not possible in the relative clause, I would say.

tchrist

That’s because the relative pronoun is the subject.

Cerberus

It is good practise to sue people over patents => suing people over patents, which it is good practice to do, ...

There it's the infinitive that forces a renewed it.

Never mind the overall awkwardness.

tchrist

That’s getting to be as complicated as those French things with dont in a weird way I no longer remember quite how to do.

Cerberus

Hmm?

tchrist

French has no cuyo.

So you have to do stuff with dont.

Latin has cujo.

The person whose mother was here last night called.

Cerberus

03:24

Ugh.

I always forget whether or not dont works the same way with people as with things.

tchrist

La personne dont la mère était ici hier soir a appelé.

Cerberus

~~At least you can't put it right before its head.~~

tchrist

La persona cuya madre estuvo aquí anoche llamó.

Cerberus

Right, that looks OK.

Or does it?

I'm not sure.

tchrist

Well, or estaba in the imperfect.

Cerberus

03:26

I mean the French.

tchrist

I don’t know. I always get the French dont confused.

Cerberus

Confused?

With what?

tchrist

Like people vs things. That tickles my memory, but I can’t access it.

Cerberus

Right.

I think you can't use en with people.

Nor y.

tchrist

No, not y.

That’s locative.

Cerberus

03:28

So?

tchrist

People are not a place.

But well, not even to her.

Cerberus

No, it's not so much locative as replacing à.

tchrist

That’s why I did the to her.

Cerberus

Le chien est mort. Il y pense souvent.

tchrist

Right.

Cerberus

03:29

Because it's penser à.

tchrist

But if it were his wife who were dead, could he not often think of her?

à elle

Cerberus

À elle, I would say.

tchrist

yah

I think I would think of Il y pense as thinking about the death not the dog. Perhaps it doesn’t matter.

Cerberus

Why?

Make it a house, then.

tchrist

I don’t know.

Cerberus

03:32

Il est loin de sa maison. Il y pense souvent. Il en est très loin.

tchrist

Voici le livre dont je t’ai parlé.

Because it is parler de.

Cerberus

Yes, that is 100 % correct.

tchrist

?

Cerberus

Oh, typo.

tchrist

Is no 100%?

Ah.

A little no can change a lot.

-1

A: Why magazine writers introduce a people in non-straight way?

This is how American journalists write. They spend a lot of time interviewing people but do not have specific background training concerning the industries of the people they are interviewing, so they have to pad their compositions with details on the physical appearances of the people they inter...

Blechia blechia blechia.

Cerberus

03:39

I must defend your people: this is also prevalent in journalism of lesser quality in other countries, including my own. — Cerberus 9 secs ago

So anyway, it appears you can use dont freely with people.

tchrist

Not my downvote, BTW.

So maybe it is y that has the problem.

Everybody writes novelistically.

Nasty word, that.

Perhaps romancefully or romanantically would be better.

Or maybe not.

Romanly?

Oh well.

Back to the novellish bit.

Cerberus

Y and en.

tchrist

Where did y come from?

Cerberus

Ehh...

I once knew this.

Latin ibi.

That makes sense.

tchrist

Ah.

Pretty locative.

John has some other word for those types that I forget.

Ce dont tu rêves est impossible à réaliser.

If only they could strand prepositions, eh?

Alraxite

03:48

Does anyone know any alternative ways to say this: "I couldn't use the internet for about a week"? The phrase 'use the internet' doesn't seem right...

tchrist

What you’re dreaming of is impossible to realize.

Alraxite

Or is it...

tchrist

Get to?

Sounds fine.

Alraxite

Oh okay, thanks!

Cerberus

@tchrist Like how?

tchrist

03:49

Ce que tu rêves de . . .

Ce de que/qui tu rêves

Ok, I see why they want the dont.

Cerberus

@Alraxite Sounds fine. You could also say, had no access to the Internet, to specify why you couldn't use it (as opposed to having broken fingers or something).

By the way, en is from inde, which also makes sense.

Alraxite

@Cerberus I see, thanks for telling.

Cerberus

Good luck!

tchrist

What it most depends on is working hard.

That would be a ce dont.

Cerberus

Sure.

tchrist

03:52

The weird thing is that I can’t think of a parallel construction in ES/PT/IT.

You have to stick some la cosa de que in front of it or something.

Cerberus

They probably just use preposition + relative pronoun, as the French can do too, with duquel.

tchrist

Más depende de trabajo duro.

Just avoid the what bit altogether.

What did you dream about?

¿Con qué soñaste?

But "What I dreamed about was . . . " I dunno.

rêver de == soñar con

He soñado contigo == I’ve dreamt of you

Even the French don’t have a con version. :)

blushes

Who did you come with?

Avec qui es tu venu?

Or something.

No prep stranding allowed.

No prep strangling aloud.

I’m babbling with sleep-deprived delirium.

Whiteout!

Well, or beigeout.

vanishes

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

MετάEd

04:15

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Good Balrog to you!

In fact I think I'll have a little tot of Balrog myself before I retire.

Jez

08:58

@tchrist con means something different in French

Matt Эллен

ô◡ ô

õ̥_õ̥

Jez

pahris.co.uk

anyone ~~used~~ had their HR department make them use this pile of crap?

can't even figure out what i'm meant to do but they're "committed to making PAHRIS work". sounds like a government that's pissed away money on a system that requires IE6.

RegDwighт

10:54

Holy crap. TIL.

> By its territorial expansion on July 1, 2012 southwest into the Moscow Oblast, the capital increased its area 2.5 times; from about 1,000 square kilometers (390 sq mi) up to 2,511 square kilometers (970 sq mi), and gained additional population of 233,000 people.

It looks so hideous now.

Stack Exchange

Limerick Machine: So just walk away

posted on July 12, 2013 by sgdi

There is not much you can do When people are rude about you Try as you might, though Defending your ego Will not stop you feeling so blue

KitFox

11:06

@RegDwighт It looks like it ruptured.

RegDwighт

Yeah no shit.

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Too bad about the typo.

It still reposted it though. Made me laugh.

RegDwighт

Old.

KitFox

Only for the younguns.

RegDwighт

Der Spiegel made the same joke like three weeks ago.

I suppose translations from German take some time.

KitFox

11:12

Right. Or maybe we don't pay attention to anything that's not already in English.

I read the first chapter of Alice In Wonderland to my boys yesterday.

RegDwighт

High time you did.

KitFox

They aren't ready for it yet.

I checked it out so I could read it.

RegDwighт

Oh. Is that so?

I think I most appreciated the book at the age of around nine.

KitFox

The text is too dense for them to follow very well, although they got the gist.

RegDwighт

Hm.

KitFox

11:14

I like the pictures in this edition.

RegDwighт

Perhaps when the action gets going it'll be different.

I actually remember it having quite short and clear sentences.

But it's been a while and I don't remember what the first chapter looks like.

KitFox

Did you read it in English?

The library also has the original draft "Alice's Adventures Under Ground."

RegDwighт

Better. I read an annotated translation. So, Russian with English with extensive commentary from the (excellent) translator, who explained every frigging word choice in meticulous detail. It was awesome. On some pages the footnotes occupied more space than actual text.

KitFox

> Alice was beginning to get very tired of sitting by her sister on the bank, and of having nothing to do: once or twice she had peeped into the book her sister was reading, but it had no pictures or conversations in it, 'and what is the use of a book,' thought Alice 'without pictures or conversation?'

RegDwighт

At the age of nine, that was easily the best thing I had ever got my hands on.

KitFox

11:17

Sounds great.

One thing I noticed that I didn't remember is the extensive use of colons in the place of full stops.

RegDwighт

And remember how it has poems and all. These were translated by a different person, in fact several different persons.

So the main translator lady mentioned the various existing alternatives and why she picked one over the others.

KitFox

Gramma's here, so I must commute. I am interested to hear more when I get to work though.

RegDwighт

CU

tchrist

11:33

@Jez Hence the blushing.

Achu

Is this correct guys?

**************************************************

PROBLEM STATEMENT

• Currently, 95% of BDA computers are virus infected, running with so many unnecessary softwares, very poor performance. Since they are not standardize this resulting in loss of productivity due to excessive system downtime experienced by employees.

************************************************

tchrist

No, it’s pretty bad.

Monica

Hello

Achu

Ok, Can you help? how can i make it good @tchrist

Monica

I also have a question. Is it correct to say: 'The students start the program at the beginner's level.''

tchrist

11:42

> Currently, 95% of BDA computers are infected with viruses, and because they run so much unnecessary software, exhibit very poor performance. Because they are not standardized, this results in a loss of employee productivity due to excessive system downtime.

Monica

or 'at level A 1' as in the sentence that I have to check

tchrist

Now that’s grammatical, but I don’t know whether it quite makes sense.

The standardized thing throws me.

Monica

tchrist, could you please answer my question too?

Achu

@tchrist Thank you very much!

tchrist

@Monica That looks fine as written.

Monica

11:45

Thanks, tchrist

Achu

@tchrist standardized is software standardization. limiting the use not install so many apps, disabling admin privilege....

Please feel free to add some ideas :) i'm writing a problem statement for help desk support service proposal ;) This is my first proposal.

Mitch

@RegDwighт The Annotated Alice (annotations by Martin Gardner) is a geek classic. Footnotes can take up -more- than a page. All about the math and the history behind the allusions.

@KitFox I tried the same but found at that age it is too long between the fun, goofy parts. in a very different way, Treasure Island had a similar problem. I blame MTV for the drive towards shorter attention span.

KitFox

12:04

Well, my eldest can read a sentence containing a subordinate clause with appropriate expression most of the time. That's about the most complex syntax he can read himself and comprehend. He's just five though, so it's quite good for his age. Alice has heaps of clauses and asides and also jokes that he doesn't have the context for quite yet.

So I have high hopes that he will eventually enjoy more complicated text. We're just not there yet.

It was this idea of doing an AMSR reading of The Jabberwocky that made me want to read the books again. That in turn stemmed from my recent purchase of the game Alice and its sequel, which I thought of because someone posted or mentioned White Rabbit in here a few weeks ago.

So anyway, @Reg, was it side-by-side Russian and English? And did you get nice pictures too?

RegDwighт

Tenniel, of course.

And stupid marketing meeting impending.

tchrist

@KitFox I read that as containing a subroutine clause.

KitFox

@RegDwighт Ah, so no, then.

;-)

The edition I'm reading has pictures by a woman named Wiggins, so every time I see her name I think missus wiggins in that particular way.

Robusto

12:25

Friday is not Fri. But it is Friday nonetheless.

tchrist

Fried, eh?

Mitch

@KitFox ??? there are better? I presume you think cough cough Walt Disney's are better?

KitFox

Oh god no.

But there are lots of nice illustrations by various people.

Robusto

@tchrist Kinda.

@KitFox My elder son was correcting adults' grammar when he was five. He was also telling smokers that cigarettes were bad for them and that they shouldn't smoke. He had a very rigid view of the world.

tchrist

@Robusto Better than frigged egg, I suppose.

@Robusto I wonder where he got that from.

Robusto

12:36

Search me.

But his very first sentence, at 18 months, was a logical inference.

KitFox

We have such incredibly smart children.

tchrist

> “For children are innocent and love justice, while most of us are wicked and naturally prefer mercy.”

Robusto

Target Regrets Reminding Managers That Not All Hispanics Wear Sombreros, Eat Tacos. Hey, maybe some people didn't get the memo.

@tchrist Sounds like Twain.

tchrist

G.K. Chesterton.

Robusto

Hmm.

Can You Find the Legos in These Incredible Portraits?. Friday fun for folks like @RegDwighт and @Mr.ShinyandNew安宇.

tchrist

12:44

> Gilbert Keith Chesterton (1874-1936) cannot be summed up in one sentence. Nor in one paragraph. In fact, in spite of the fine biographies that have been written of him (and his Autobiography), he has never been captured between the covers of one book.

> But rather than waiting to separate the goats from the sheep, let’s just come right out and say it: G.K. Chesterton was the best writer of the twentieth century. He said something about everything and he said it better than anybody else.

> But he was no mere wordsmith. He was very good at expressing himself, but more importantly, he had something very good to express. The reason he was the greatest writer of the twentieth century was because he was also the greatest thinker of the twentieth century.

Strong claims.

KitFox

@Robusto tch The document wasn't racist. Quite the opposite. Well, the part about tacos and sombreros. The Mexican/Cuban distinction was kind of awfully biased.

Robusto

Its worst crime was being tone deaf.

tchrist

Every time somebody tches I think they’re addressing me.

@Robusto Obviously not written by an Oriental.

Robusto

Depends on how you define Oriental. Not all Asian languages are pitch-based.

tchrist

They don’t call ’em sing-songs for nothin’.

Absolute pitch: race, language, and culture

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

12:50

@Robusto neat

Robusto

Cryptographers, on your marks!

KitFox

I can't even begin to read that.

Looks like Egyptian illustrations though.

Robusto

It's the Voynich Manuscript.

KitFox

Oh yes, of course. That. Thing.

Robusto

Voynich manuscript

The Voynich manuscript, described as "the world's most mysterious manuscript", is a work carbon-dated to the early 15th century (1404–1438), possibly from northern Italy. It is named after the book dealer Wilfrid Voynich, who purchased it in 1912. Some pages are missing, but there are now about 240 vellum pages, most with illustrations. Much of the manuscript resembles herbal manuscripts of the 1500s, seeming to present illustrations and information about plants and their possible uses for medical purposes. However, most of the plants do not match known species, and the manuscript's scr...

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

12:58

@MετάEd tee hee. Hope you didn't tip ass over Balrog.

KitFox

13:23

@Matt is suspiciously absent.

tchrist

Well, this is certainly one way of dealing with people who put answers in comments instead of in answers.

1

A: Aspect/respect in sentence

I can only say I prefer "respect." "The hotel was better than the previous one in every respect." I would venture a guess that "respect" would be used by more AE speakers in this application. "Aspect," on the other hand, would sound better in the following: "There are many aspects of the issue we...

I can’t even say that I wholly disapprove.

KitFox

It's been done several times with varying degrees of happy reception. I think I have done it myself when I was sufficiently annoyed.

Robusto

13:45

I hate questions from people who get bothered about things sounding "weird"—as if this site exists only to ease their neurosis about freedom of expression.

Come on, people. Own your awkwardness.

Also, all Meta questions about rep scores being several points off should be immediately flushed.

Have a reputation tag which, when it appears, triggers the deletion mechanism and sends the person to some kind of scolding page.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

people who need that sort of thing are most likely to also react badly to that sort of thing.

Robusto

we-have-nothing-to-do-but-tally-rep-for-you-all-day-long

tchrist

I keep wishing the politeness and etiquette tags would do that.

Robusto

anal-retentive

tchrist

At least you got the hyphen correct.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

13:50

we should just ban those users and send their rep to me. I won't complain if it's inaccurate.

Robusto

Right. Send it to someone who will appreciate it.

flush-my-rep

How about just wah?

RegDwighт

@Robusto the very last one had me stumped for quite some time.

Robusto

The main site needs a pedantry tag.

RegDwighт

Now here's some Friday fun for you: can you find the text in this captcha?

Robusto

@RegDwighт I didn't get any of them. Didn't try, either. But I figured you guys would get a kick out of it.

RegDwighт

13:54

Robusto

@RegDwighт I don't talk in circles.

That's my Sicherheitskontrolle.

BTW, WTF?

RegDwighт

@Robusto I am twelve and what is this?

Robusto

You are not twelve.

RegDwighт

I am twelve, and more.

Also, that's metric for you.

Robusto

Seriously, does that Captcha actually say something?

RegDwighт

13:58

I have no idea. Nobody does.

tchrist

Yes.

It says “Go away!”

RegDwighт

Facebook and meaning don't mix.

Now, that manuscript, on the other hand...

Robusto

Perhaps you could do a LEGO version of the Voynich Manuscript.

RegDwighт

I mean, it's one thing to do something like that today, but back in the day you'd have to devote like your entire life to this thing.

Reminds me of that French mailman, Cheval.

Ferdinand Cheval

Ferdinand Cheval (born 1836 in Charmes-sur-l'Herbasse, Drôme, France; died 19 August 1924) was a French postman who spent thirty-three years of his life building Le Palais idéal (the "Ideal Palace") in Hauterives. The Palace is regarded as an extraordinary example of naïve art architecture. Origins Ferdinand Cheval lived in Châteauneuf-de-Galaure, in the Drôme département of France. He had left school at the age of 13 to become a baker's apprentice, but eventually became a postman. Palais idéal Cheval began the building in April 1879. He claimed that he had tripped on a stone and wa...

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…