English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

21:00

I'm clicking it.

I also feel that DiDonato does it very nicely.

Perhaps her manner is a bit exaggerated, in the American way, but her style is attractive.

RegDwigнt

I like how at 10:36 he asks the boy if he can have his violin, then asks him if he can have the bow, and then immediately says "ah, this bow is too heavy for this violin". Before even playing a single note.

And, like, bow weights differ by maybe a couple grams, and he'd never played this violin before. But he just knows.

Cerberus

Ah, and we believe him, too.

RegDwigнt

You better do. That's how you progress.

That's why I keep watching videos like these. Even if I don't play the instruments in question.

The value of good teachers cannot be overstated.

With one simple sentence they will save you a decade of work.

Cerberus

Yes.

But neither are they perfect.

RegDwigнt

Well no which is why everyone typically has half a dozen different teachers at different points in life.

Cerberus

21:04

Sometimes they are impressing their own particular style upon their pupil.

RegDwigнt

My violin teacher studied in like five different cities in three different countries.

Cerberus

And I will hear her say, you cannot do x, when I happen to know that another famous singer does just that, and it's just a different style.

Good.

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus well yes. But I'd rather play or sing in one style really well than in a thousand styles really poorly.

And then if I want a different style, again, I'll go have a lesson with another teacher.

And it's not frowned upon or anything. It is commonly understood that that's a thing that you do.

Been that way since forever. Since Baroque. Probably earlier. You'd literally travel across the world to have a couple lessons with someone else. Or take a sabbatical year. Common practice then, common practice to this day.

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt As long as other styles aren't presented as Wrong.

@RegDwigнt Certainly.

RegDwigнt

I've not seen enough of her to be a judge on that.

But at the end of the day it's sort of expected that you develop your own style anyway. Most of all, you yourself start expecting it of yourself.

You're just a sieve for all your life's experiences.

Everyone has their own mix of experiences, and everyone is a different sieve.

Cerberus

21:11

I didn't mean to say that she in particular does that all the time.

But I have seen it on occasion in similar lessons.

I presume the pupils will know this, too, so it isn't a problem.

RegDwigнt

The pupils will probably know more than us as laymen. Maybe for them like half of the advice we dismiss as stylistic isn't actually stylistic at all. For whatever reason. Or a multitude of reasons.

We're at the bottom end of the Dunning-Kruger scale on this. We don't know what we don't know.

All rules are there to be obeyed for exactly as long as you don't know if they are actually rules or not.

Cerberus

Absolutely.

But I remember hearing her give very specific advice about singing a certain part of an aria legato.

And then I heard Jaroussky singing it non legato.

Staccato?

RegDwigнt

You forgot your Latin?

Legato is tied together. Staccato is each note separated from the others.

Non legato is in the middle. Like détaché on the violin. You can actually make it sound very legato even though it technically is not.

Cerberus

Ah.

I never knew my Italian.

I think it was this piece:

Philippe Jaroussky - Vedro con mio diletto - Vivaldi

►

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus Neither did the French. Whence all the confusion.

Cerberus

21:18

I think my favourite aria by young Jaroussky.

RegDwigнt

That's France 3 huh. Haven't seen that logo in a decade.

The strings are playing spiccato there. That's like one of ten other things you can do on strings between staccato and détaché.

It's a clusterfuck of terms and techniques.

Cerberus

Ack.

RegDwigнt

Which is why it's so difficult to come up with a truly definitive interpretation. Let alone a historically informed one. Stuff gets even murkier the further you go back.

Hell, we still can't agree on the metronome numbers for Beethoven.

People think that 120 means 120 when he clearly meant 60 by it.

So yeah, Vivaldi is like literally free for all. Nobody knows what the fuck they're doing. Even when they do, for a fact, know what the fuck they're doing.

Like, I told you about that score I did of that other thing Jaroussky sang. It's from 1762. There's not a single instruction for the singer. Just the naked notes.

Cerberus

Is there a continuous tradition?

That is significant.

RegDwigнt

Back then it was commonly understood what you would do with them.

But because it was commonly understood, nobody bothered writing it down.

And then it was suddenly not commonly understood and everyone was like FFFFFUUUUUUUU what we do now

All we have is naked notes.

And that was like 200 years ago.

Now people can't even google for "spiccato".

They can only type "dafuq you on about, does anyone have a translator"

And they can't even type that into Google.

Which reminds me, I started reading "Twentieth Century Harmony" last night. I must continue now.

amazon.de/Twentieth-Century-Harmony-Creative-Aspects-Practice/…

Still no inlining love for Amazon? Boooooo.

Cerberus

21:30

Maybe change it to .com?

RegDwigнt

I believe we tried that before.

I think it just stopped working altogether at some point.

amazon.com/Twentieth-Century-Harmony-Creative-Aspects-Practice/…

See.

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt If there is a continuous tradition of performances for that composer, we usually have at least something?

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus I can't make general statements like that. It's too unwieldy a situation.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt Flawless performance. I presume he's a counter tenor?

RegDwigнt

Like, even a continuous tradition suffers from what you outlined earlier. One teacher colors their student ever so slightly, and then so on.

@Robusto inorite. And yes.

Robusto

21:32

But a darker voice than most counter tenors.

If I'd just heard that without seeing it I'd have said alto or contralto.

RegDwigнt

It's certainly very rich. I know what you mean.

Robusto

Mmm ... not contralto.

RegDwigнt

Well countertenor is basically mezzosopran.

13 mins ago, by RegDwigнt

It's a clusterfuck of terms and techniques.

Robusto

Well ... it's basically about vocal coloring at those fine shades, not vocal range.

Mitch

soprano tuba

RegDwigнt

21:34

Well yes. A layman would probably call this falsetto or castratto when it actually is not. He's using his whole voice.

Robusto

But thanks for that.

RegDwigнt

No prob. Complete accident I happened across it. So I figured it might take you 40 years to find it just like it did me.

Robusto

Most things in life are complete accidents.

Cerberus

The violin lesson is a lot harder to follow than the singing lessons!

For a lay dog like me.

Robusto

I probably would never have discovered the flute if a friend hadn't given me one in lieu of a monetary debt. Accident, totally.

Mitch

21:35

Complete accidents on the other hand are mostly predetermined.

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus I can't say I know more about the violin than you do. But I found it easy to follow. Vengerov uses very colorful language. With lots of similes and stories. He's a Märchenonkel.

@Robusto well for starters I never once expected to be born. Biggest surprise of my life.

Cerberus

At least you actively play some instruments.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt I certainly never expected you to be born, either.

RegDwigнt

OMG we should be like friends or something.

Robusto

Sounds rather deliberate. Can we accidentally become friends somehow?

RegDwigнt

21:38

Oh I finally watched Once Upon A Time... in Hollywood last Sunday.

You seen it yet

Robusto

And ...?

Yes, I have.

RegDwigнt

For me, better than the Hateful Eight. And much better than Django.

The very fact that he cut Tim Roth tells me he is willing to start learning from Sally Menke.

High time he did.

Robusto

Not nearly as good as Inglourious Basterds.

RegDwigнt

No.

Robusto

And I would have to put it somewhat beneath a pedestal, frankly.

RegDwigнt

21:40

Also everyone says, I believe Tarantino included, that it's like the second coming of Pulp Fiction and that's like the wrongest thing you could possibly say.

More like Kill Bill part 2.

That's more like the vibe I was getting.

@Robusto I went with a friend with whom I've seen most if not all of Tarantino's previous movies together. We had a dozen tequila beers between the two of us. It was worth it.

Robusto

Well, see, the whole "Sharon Tate" murder thing, which really happened, and then it has a surprise Hollywood ending ... I just didn't know what to make of that.

I saw it with my kids. They didn't get the "this shit really happened, sort of" thing.

RegDwigнt

Tarantino is the last person who still makes movies. So whatever he gives me, I'm kinda thankful in a way. If you know what I'm saying.

Robusto

Not having been alive in 1969 and all.

@RegDwigнt I do. I just wish he wasn't in such a marked decline.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto the friend I went with knew everything about the murders. I did not know the first thing. Like, at all. Nothing.

Robusto

Every film since IB has had major flaws.

RegDwigнt

21:42

Well. Sally Menke died.

Pulp Fiction would've been 4 hours long without her.

Imagine that.

Robusto

And probably in sequence.

RegDwigнt

Hah. Good one.

Robusto

I just felt he was wasting my time in "Once upon a ..."

RegDwigнt

Anyway. I didn't take that for a surprise Hollywood ending at all. If anything it's the most Tarantino thing about it. A copycat of IB, as it were.

@Robusto ah, but that was the best part for us. We savoured every minute of the fluff. And then he gave us 40 more. And that's just that one scene.

Of those 41 minutes, you could easily cut 50.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt Yeah. And IB was flawed itself, although I forgave the graphic novelish excesses in that one.

RegDwigнt

21:45

No idea where he was going with the wife murder B plot though.

Like, I don't think even he does.

@Robusto I was extremely surprised to see this little violence. Biggest surprise of the century, for me.

Robusto

I don't know either. But here's the difference: he thoroughly immersed me in Reservoir Dogs, Pulp Fiction, Jackie Brown, and IB, right from the git-go. The others ... I had to struggle to stay interested.

RegDwigнt

Like, literally nothing happens at all. Then just a little bit happens but really also nothing. Then it ends.

Robusto

It's like he was buying my attention on credit.

RegDwigнt

We sat there and watched it like GTA 5.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt I need more.

RegDwigнt

21:48

I know what you mean. But I also know that Pulp Fiction still exists so I could just go watch that. I dunno. Yeah he could do more. I'm torn.

Robusto

The thing people don't acknowledge often enough is that Tarantino is a writer first and a director second. His dialogue is really what makes his films. Think of any classic Tarantino moment and you'd have to say it was the dialogue that made it.

"Say what again! I dare ya. I double-dare ya!"

There was like zero interesting dialogue in this latest one.

RegDwigнt

Well yes. Which is why we also loved Natural Born Killers and Killing Zoe.

@Robusto I might add True Romance to the list, but it's been 25 years since I last watched it so I won't. Other than that, good list.

Kill Bill 2 though, why you no give love.

Robusto

Because of Kill Bill 1.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto yeah I was very much wondering about rewatchability or quotability.

@Robusto what that to do with anything, that movie is not even the same fucking game.

Might as well say "because of Battleship Potemkin".

Robusto

It ain't even the same sport.

RegDwigнt

21:52

Kill Bill 2 stands on its own merits. Kill Bill 1 falls on its.

Robusto

Then name it some other name.

Or don't allow Kill Bill 1 to be made.

RegDwigнt

Don't worry, now that George Lucas is free he'll rename it and repackage it and make three prequels.

Bill: Period 1.

With pod racing!

Robusto

And they'll find that Michael Madsen is actually Uma Thurman's father!

RegDwigнt

See, just like that by saying "Uma Thurman" you reminded me of just how many fucking feet there were in Once Upon a Time.

Now that was getting excessive. And then never stopped.

Robusto

Yes.

RegDwigнt

21:56

Just how many feet of footage did he shoot?

Ba-dum-tsss.

Robusto

I guess I see it like this: Tarantino used to be an enfant terrible, and now he's no longer an enfant.

@RegDwigнt I thought that's what you meant by feet.

RegDwigнt

I remember being weirded out by all of closeups of Uma's feet back then. Little did I know.

Oh well.

I must go read Persichetti now. I already told Cerberus as much half an hour ago and I don't want him to think me a liar.

Like, I am, but I don't want him to notice.

Robusto

Enjoy.

RegDwigнt

Thank you. I will return to discussing this in great detail with you and none other.

Robusto

/ bows

RegDwigнt

22:00

/ reverences

Or however you say that in English.

Robusto

Good enough.

RegDwigнt

Now then. Lators gators!

Robusto

cya

Ellie Kesselman

23:26

@RegDwigнt obeisances maybe?

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