English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Mitch

00:04

but some religious people are open to what science can offer.

the other way, also. But a tendency on both sides to not bother with the other.

user288256

Yeah, with religious people it is always a "test". They tell me "It is your test, this life. If you pass it your afterlife will be better" so should I wait till I die? Kind of mind boggling sometimes

user288256

So I mostly just go about my day without overthinking these things. But it is fun to think about these things.

user288256

@Mitch Yep. A started seeing a shrink but then came to this conclusion 'The best shrinks have always been at home (mom and/or dad)'. I never talked to my parents very openly before that. Well, before that I never felt like I needed any emotional support etc.

user288256

There is a choice here, go and see a shrink or go and see an Imam. Hah.

user288256

I have taken both routes.

user288256

00:16

Well, I don't know, but to be honest, I found the shrink's route more unhelpful than an Imam's one.

user288256

Relatively.

user288256

The drugs they provided (psychiatrist) only made me dumb. They can put people to sleep but that's not progress to me, that's not a solution.

user288256

But, yeah, whatever rows a person's boat is fine I guess.

user288256

Anyway, it was nice talking to you. I have to go. See you around.

Mitch

@Ghalib THey don't always work well

@Ghalib later

tchrist

01:44

Beehive, honeycomb

comb?

> From Middle English comb, from Old English camb (“comb”), from Proto-Germanic *kambaz (“comb”) (compare Saterland Frisian Koum, Swedish/Dutch kam, German Kamm), from Proto-Indo-European *ǵómbʰos (“tooth”), from Proto-Indo-European *ǵómbʰ- (“to pierce, gnaw through”) (compare Tocharian B keme, Lithuanian žam̃bas (“sharp edge”), Old Church Slavonic зѫбъ (zǫbŭ), Albanian dhëmb, Ancient Greek γομφίος (gomphíos, “backtooth, molar”), Sanskrit जम्भ (jambha)).

The Spanish word is colmena, the Portuguese colmeia.

Are these related?

> From Vulgar Latin *culmēna, feminine of culmēnus, from Latin culmus. Alternatively of Celtic origin, from a root *kolmēnā, from kŏlmos ("straw"). Compare Portuguese colmeia.

Dunno.

> From Proto-Indo-European *ḱolh₂mos. Cognate with Ancient Greek κάλαμος (kálamos).

Doesn't look like it, but still feels fishy.

Cerberus

Hmm it appears to be a coincidence.

Like so many things in life.

caub

14:09

@tchrist hmm, in my understanding, -ize is more Americanish, and -ise British

tchrist

@caub That's correct, to a point. The thing is that there is a small set of verbs which must always be -ise no matter what standard you follow.

caub

ah, I probably ignore them

circumcise :p as I can see on the right

tchrist

Yup, that's one.

Or disguise, advise, revise, devise, comprise, surprise, exercise.

Various others.

user685252

that's probably why the brits chose "-ise"

caub

ah, yes, I wouldn't have made the mistake for them (except disguise maybe)

tchrist

14:13

Americans often do.

caub

"advize" would look terrible

tchrist

enterprise, chastise

18 hours ago, by tchrist

@RaceYouAnytime Then I can only surmize that this news will have come as a surprize to you. I would advize you to exercize some superficial investigations into these matters, and, having found, devized, or at least improvized the requizite answers, that you might kindly apprize us of your findings in this regard and suggest whether we should revize or even excize our previous position. While the invariant set admittedly comprizes a smaller number of words than the variant set, I promize you’ll have found that there's no disguizing or circumcizing away its existence. — tchrist ♦ 17 hours ago

caub

hehe

user685252

:D

tchrist

A compsci major recently asked me why English hadn't done away with the letter C, using just S or K appropriately.

caub

14:16

let me supervize you, as I'm the worst manager possible

tchrist

wonders how one would spell conscionable were C to be eksized from the langwidge

k-o-n-- um, now what?

user685252

Komputer Science?

tchrist

That "sci" trigraph represents /ʃ/ there, for which surely neither S nor K shall suffice.

@user685252 Sorry, not in yours, in unconscionable I meant.

Yes, komputer siens.

caub

it'll suffice in the orifice

tchrist

The problem is that "ns" would be a /nz/.

We use C for S's that can't become /z/.

But really, I told him that it's because C over S/K is meant to represent the etymology not the pronunciation.

> EN science saɪəns
FR science sjɑ̃s
OC sciéncia sjensjɔ
IT scienza ʃɛntsa
PT ciência sjẽsjɐ
ES ciencia θjenθjɑ

If instead of the second column we all spelled it as we pronounce it in the third column, the fundamental underlying similarity would evaporate, and communication would become harder.

The selfsame issue arises when arguing for a spell-as-you-say reform within a single language as well. Different branches of that "one language" will no longer be interlegible.

By which I mean "readable between", not intelligible though that too applies.

user288256

15:27

"You visit the place so you must know him" You interpret it as "very likely" right? I hope it doesn't sound "should" or "obligation" etc. like "... you should know him" or such.

Mitch

15:53

@Ghalib very very likely but not absolutely so. No obligation

But 'you should know him' also means very likely and not obligation

Should has two meanings: you're supposed to do something or it is likely that you will do something

'You should go see a lawyer' means I suggest that you do it.

'You should be good friends' means I suspect you might be good friends eventually given what I know about you two

user288256

16:47

@Mitch okay, cool, thanks.

tchrist

Why studying will never help you speak a language

Færd

Damn right.

tchrist

No native speaker ever became such through study.

Cerberus

17:14

Silly title.

Tonepoet

@tchrist As alluring as that title is, I somehow doubt you learned English from being dumped off at the Buckingham Palace for a spot of tea with The Queen, and I know practically nothing about the Japanese language despite years of watching subtitled anime so forgive me when I suggest that's not just a silly title as Cerb. suggested, but a nonsense one at that. Some minimal amount of study is necessary to learn a second language, or else you won't actually know how to speak it as suggested.

Færd

You need to know the art of clickbait if you want publicity on the net. I'd say the gravity of the point, and the fact that the title is properly modified in the body, justifies the exaggeration.

@Tonepoet It exactly addresses the reason why you can't speak Japanese too.

Tonepoet

17:37

@Færd Now now, there's no need to go that far. I'm just picking on the title, which is just full of the false hopes and dreams of truants everywhere just waiting to be dashed by cold harsh reality. Do remember that clickbait is a pejorative term for a reason. =P

tchrist

17:48

@Tonepoet I didn't remember any book, play, film, ship, or sword whose official title is The Queen. If you meant ER2, then it's just the Queen. We only capitalize articles when they re the first word of a title such as those I listed. She's just the Queen of England inter alios.

Tonepoet

@tchrist Just because you don't recall one does not mean one does not exist! Obviously, I was referring to the 2006 movie about Queen Elizabeth II struggling with the loss of Princess Diana. =P

tchrist

There is no such thing as a proper article. It's just the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

user288256

When I speak English people rarely correct me, and it is hard for me to notice my own mistakes (since I am speaking and interacting without a pen or paper) but when I write my mistakes are more apparent. So, yeah, I guess it is not just about starting to speak a language, some form of study or learning is a must (otherwise who will correct you if you make mistakes? or keep repeating mistakes?). However, speaking a language is a good practice, no matter the amount of mistakes we make.

user288256

Tried to go both for and against the heading/blog.

tchrist

@Tonepoet I was so hoping for a sword.

Mitch

17:53

@tchrist the country of The Gambia is I think one of the few examples.

tchrist

@Mitch hate it.

It's just the Netherlands.

And it's just these United States.

Capitalizing articles is some new confusion.. I blame the comics.

Tonepoet

@tchrist I doubt comics would have an effect on most capitalization habits because all letters are capitalized in those to circumvent the need to reserve space just for the tails of some lowercase letters.

Færd

@Tonepoet What do you mean that far? Did I offend you?

Tonepoet

Granted, perhaps it's different with the titles, which sometimes use larger capitals for words but at that point, it is not a comic book exclusive convention, at least newspaper headlines should share in the blame.

Færd

And why would you isolate the title from the text?

And yeah, I wanted the sinister feel of clickbait to crash with art for rhetorical effect.

Tonepoet

18:12

@Færd Mostly because I don't think the title conventions for comic books differ so much from any other medium. If we're going to blame one particular medium for the development of a bad habit, it should not be a trait shared by any other media, or at least it should not be shared before the habit spreads from its original source.

Færd

Why do you call it bad habit?

Tonepoet

@Færd I am positing as much because @tchrist suggests it. If you want an explanation, you'd have to ask him.

Færd

It's an obvious exaggeration that promises that there are going to be interesting facts in the text and tries to convince you to go ahead and read on.

Tonepoet

@Færd Oh, you're still writing about clickbait.

Færd

@Tonepoet I meant to ask why you divorced the title of that article from the body.

@Tonepoet Yeah, I replied to that message.

Tonepoet

18:24

@Færd I wasn't offended by the message, but I took it that you originally intended to make it a little more personal because the word "you" was emphasized with italics in the original revision of your message if I recall correctly. Am I mistaken?

Færd

I just wanted to make it clear that it wasn't generic you.

Then I thought it might cause misunderstandings and edited it.

I was late for that, it seems. :-)

Gigili

People, we've talked about this! Acting is reacting.

Tonepoet

@Færd Yes, indeed. I really couldn't have guessed that, because it's not a context in which that convention would apply. I mean, this is more along the lines of direct discussion than publication for general audiences. XP

Færd

OK. Sorry.

Gigili

Where's @Mitch when you need him.

Tonepoet

18:30

Then again I suppose group conversation also employs generic you sometimes. 'Tis easy for me to forget that since I rarely ever speak in groups these days myself.

user288256

@Tonepoet You and Mitch are unoffendable I am pretty sure. :P

user288256

But just don't start yelling at me to prove otherwise.

user288256

xP

Tonepoet

@Ghalib I'd consider it, but I'm too lazy to get the microphone. ;-)

user288256

Oh, it's fine, don't bother. I am good. Totally.

user288256

18:35

heh

Færd

20:15

> I wish I had more/enough time to make both your events, but I can only attend the first.

Enough it is. But would you say more is incorrect?

I guess you don't wish you had more time to do something if you have no time to spend on it.

Cerberus

Make an event?

Make it to?

Færd

Make it there; succeed in attending it.

Doesn't work?

Cerberus

I'm not sure.

It certainly works with there.

Færd

Hmm. Thanks.

Cerberus

Or make it home.

Maybe it's possible.

Færd

20:21

I'll have to investigate it if you're not sure.

> 6.1 (make it) Succeed in something; become successful.
‘he waited confidently for his band to make it’

Cerberus

As to more, that's OK, but it might benefit from a comma. And then the sentence might be somewhat unwieldy.

@Færd Sure, make it works.

Færd

It seems necessary there.

@Cerberus After time?

Cerberus

@Færd Yes.

@Færd Yes, it needs a kind of object.

Færd

@Cerberus OK, that's right.

I wanted to know how jarring it would be without the comma.

Cerberus

Perhaps acceptable.

As to make, I think perhaps it to is sometimes omitted in casual speech.

Færd

20:27

How can you wish for more of something you have none of?

Mitch

@Gigili pricks up ears

@Ghalib How dare you say that.

Færd

@Cerberus Porrible looks horrible.

Cerberus

@Færd Exactly.

@Færd Porribly.

Færd

:-)

> make 23 a : to include in a route or itinerary make New York on the return trip —often used with it make it to the party

Hey @Mitch. Would you say make the party instead of make it to the party?

Mitch

Looks like we made it

@Færd I'd say both with slightly different intentions

Færd

20:42

Aha.

How different?

Mitch

Hmm...thinking about it that's wrong. I'd make it to the party

Færd

OK.

Thanks.

Mitch

Synonymous with get to the party

Færd

Of course.

Mitch

its all idiomatic

Cerberus

20:49

@Færd I think a place is better than an event.

tchrist

0

Q: Proposal for selective blacklisting

Enabling selective notifications on ELU Other busy sites like Stack Overflow have pop-up notifications that trigger on various titles and tags, but we do not. For example: After years of observation of trends, and some help from staff with the analysis of aggregate data, I would now like to...

Kindly discuss.

Cerberus

Hypothesis: as the object is closer to something that can be created, one is less likely to use make x in the sense of "arrive in time".

Mitch

Can we discuss before reading that?

That one guy. Am I right?

tchrist

Bien, sir.

Færd

@Cerberus Interesting.

Mitch

20:52

@tchrist agree fully with warnings/blacklist in 'correct' or 'grammar'

Cerberus

That's how idiom not seldom works: a more likely/common reading occupies the slot that a certain expression could otherwise slide into.

Mitch

This suggestion may be too subtle but I also suggest blacklisting 'why'

tchrist

I've deliberately omitted statistics about all this to stave off eyes-glaze-over causalities.

Mitch

It introduces a poor question

tchrist

Indeed.

Mitch

20:55

Also casualties

tchrist

But the people whom it "catches" need to understand why those are poor questions, or they'll just ask them under another guise.

Or guys.

Mitch

Instead of correct or grammar, put the content in the title

tchrist

Yes. I am so so so tired of "Is this correct?" questions.

Mitch

(Also in the detail area)

tchrist

Nobody can search for those, or even know what the damned question is about.

Mitch

20:57

Syntax is a tag that would replace the use in the title

And everything is about correctness

Should change the site name to ELU and Correctness

Færd

Very good observation.
Although it doesn't include the idiom in question, _make it_, it does explain why _make the party_ is iffy.

tchrist

@Mitch That's because people just want to pass their exams.

Which admit only boolean correctnesses.

Those aren't very good questions. At best.

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus how do you say pics or it did not happen in latin?

& hi :)

@Robusto I know a guy who knows this guy.

Mitch

@tchrist and disallows common variants/subcultures

And... I'm sure there's another one

Cerberus

21:22

@JohanLarsson Picturae aut non factum est!

Johan Larsson

:)

Cerberus

@Færd I'm not entirely sure what you mean.

But what I meant is this.

> I made the train.

This sounds as though you constructed the train.

The common expression make x meaning "create x" (the literal sense of make) takes precedence and blocks the slot from accepting make x "be in time for x".

Then again, I believe you can say I made the train informally.

So the blocking is not absolute, it's all very complicated and multifactorial.

It's more about likelihood.

Johan Larsson

how come you know latin?

Cerberus

I have studied it in school and at university.

Do many schools teach Latin in Sweden?

Johan Larsson

21:38

no idea

think not given no idea

Mitch

22:30

@Cerberus it does also mean that I reached the train before it left

Cerberus

22:47

1 hour ago, by Cerberus

Then again, I believe you can say I made the train informally.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…