English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Mitch

13:01

@LeakyNun Sure you can. You just have to do it right.

Leaky Nun

@Mitch that's a tautology

Mitch

@LeakyNun I don't think tautology is the right word for it. a bit of a 'no true scotsman' but then you're ll 'straw man' and then Terdon's like 'appeal to authority'.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@LeakyNun More than that: it implies that there is a right way to do it.

Leaky Nun

@Mitch it's both a tautology and a no true scotsman

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 prescriptivism

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@LeakyNun gesundheit

Leaky Nun

13:04

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 health?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@LeakyNun no, I thought you sneezed

Leaky Nun

@terdon Now, I think I haven't told you my analysis fully. My belief is that there is an adverb in the sentences there is one apple and there are three apples. Also, I believe that it is a remnant of the verb-second order, which was once productive in English and is still productive in German.

My evidence is that the conjugation clearly follows the noun that comes after it, namely one apple and three apples. Since the verb conjugates according to the subject, it follows that one apple and three apples are the subjects. The verb-second rule also produces sentences like "hardly has he ever done that" or "little did he know about the incident".

Mitch

@nima the onelook autosuggest gives you some single word ones (faster than scanning the pages of results)

Leaky Nun

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 why did you think I sneezed and why did you say health in German?

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 or by backwards implication that you did it wrong

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

13:05

@LeakyNun because I said something and you wrote "prescriptivism", which I thought was too random to be what you meant, so it must be a sneeze. And gesundheit is what you say to sneezes, in English.

Leaky Nun

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 "there is a right way to do it" is prescriptive linguistics

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@LeakyNun I think we're miscommunicating.

I mean there's a right way to compare sentences.

to infer linguistic facts.

Leaky Nun

oh alright

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

"you have to do it right" is obvious, but more than a tautology, it implies that there exists a right way to do it.

M.A.R.

@LeakyNun Well, classifying it as an adverb stirs an already heterogeneous category in English to look even weirder. People are trying to find ways to categorize less things as adverbs, not more.

Mitch

13:07

@LeakyNun or it could be that 'there {copula} {NP} is an idiom, and the pattern is just the copula agrees with the NP in number (some dialects maybe don't do agreement there)

M.A.R.

What you say makes sense, but it's just not a useful classification

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@M.A.R. resists temptation to correct you to fewer

Leaky Nun

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 fewer and less are both correct

Mitch

language is logical in following patterns but not necessarily logical in which patterns are which

M.A.R.

To put "there" in the same place as things like "unquestionably" just sounds wrong

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

13:08

@LeakyNun I did say I resisted, didn't I?

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Bless you

M.A.R.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Gah ʕ ⊃･ ◡ ･ ʔ⊃︵┻━┻

Leaky Nun

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 yet you openly declared your resistance...

Mitch

@LeakyNun that's pretty prescriptive of you to say that

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@LeakyNun It's because I know it's a zombie rule but it's one that has been deeply ingrained.

Leaky Nun

13:09

@Mitch indeed

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 resists temptations to ... shit ... resists temptation to take a drink

terdon

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That one is a weird one though, isn't it? I also find less to be off there.

And yes, I am well aware that there isn't actually any difference between the two. That doesn't mean we don't make things up.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@terdon I mean at this point it's as if the rule is true just because enough people believe in it.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 some prescriptive rules become the way to actually do it

Leaky Nun

@Mitch which is what we are trying to [recover from] (can't choose a better verb)

terdon

13:11

On the other hand, I know I'm not consistent. Sometimes I want the one and sometimes the other and it isn't simply a question of mass vs countable. It seems to be random for me.

Mitch

@terdon there is a difference. usually when fewer is used, you can replace it with 'less' but not the other way round

or that's what memory tells me

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@terdon I would almost always say "we want fewer adverbs, not more", but I'll also happily say "You can use 10 adverbs or less"

Mitch

i'm trying to think of an example

and can't

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 that's so descriptive!

@terdon you're in an unstable equilibrium.

butterfly wings flap in Australia

Tonepoet

@terdon Why does Merriam-Webster categorize there as a noun? I mean in addition to it being a pronoun!

M.A.R.

@Mitch Good luck dealing with the hurricane that's coming your way

Mitch

13:15

I think of it is almost a proper pronoun. There. it's that place...over there...look I'm pointing.

M.A.R.

@Mitch propro pernoun?

Mitch

@M.A.R. that's the beauty of it. The hurricane was right here all along.

sighs

damn it...another hurricane

Tonepoet

@Mitch I've seen the word demonstrative used, but that's usually a subcategory of pronoun or adjective.

Mitch

@Tonepoet it's not like it's a Java class hierarchy.

M.A.R.

@Mitch I remember when I was a kid, I read somewhere that America gets a lot of tornadoes called hurricanes, and I thought exactly that

Mitch

13:17

more like C++ with multiple inheritance and overloading and circular references.

M.A.R.

Merriam Webster, or English, or both?

Mitch

and really, I love Chomsky man but it's all built up on reactive linear grammar patterns.

The full power of CFGs don't really happen.

Tonepoet

@Mitch Unfortunately, I do not understand the nature of these similes as I am not a programmer.

Mitch

inner nesting is just impossible beyond two levels.

except maybe for german.

I'd like to see a German sentence ending in more than two particles.

Leaky Nun

I've seen separable verbs with three components in German

M.A.R.

13:19

@Tonepoet Read it like "it's not like this complicated thing. It's way more complicated than that"

Mitch

@Tonepoet Oh.

Leaky Nun

@Mitch what do you mean by particles?

Mitch

Here's how to understand it.

M.A.R.

That's how I cope with all those programmers over at SOCVR.

Mitch

a hierarchy of classes is like a set and it's subsets

@LeakyNun Damn you German!

M.A.R.

13:21

Grammatical particle

In grammar the term particle (abbreviated PTCL) has a traditional meaning, as a part of speech that cannot be inflected, and a modern meaning, as a function word associated with another word or phrase to impart meaning. == Modern meaning == In modern grammar, a particle is a function word that must be associated with another word or phrase to impart meaning, i.e., does not have its own lexical definition. On this definition, particles are a separate part of speech and are distinct from other classes of function words, such as articles, prepositions, conjunctions and adverbs. Languages vary widely...

Mitch

@M.A.R. haha. That's an oversimplification

@LeakyNun good point.

those preposition like things that aren't really prepositions that all Germanic languages use.

M.A.R.

So does Arabic

And Persian.

Mitch

Ich sag die Treffen ab

I'm calling off the meeting (if I got that right)

(I think I misused 'particle' in German as I think that refers to 'eben' 'so' 'je')

Leaky Nun

so you are referring to ab?

Mitch

oh.

yes.

forgot where I was going with that

M.A.R.

13:25

Going home?

You just called off the meeting.

Mitch

I had personal issues to deal with

aha! 'with' isn't really a preposition there, but a ... I don't know what to call it.

or is it?

I had to deal with personal issues

Leaky Nun

I would classify it as one

going with and deal with are phrasal verbs

Mitch

anyway, those ... things.

Leaky Nun

verb + proposition

Mitch

I want a german sentence with lots of them at the end

M.A.R.

13:27

@Mitch o.o it is

Mitch

@M.A.R. just because it looks like one doesn't mean it is one

M.A.R.

@Mitch Ich sag die Treffen ab with with with with with with with

Mitch

@M.A.R. Thanks you

grits teeth

terdon

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, there you go. That sort of inconsistency. And I've also played the game with other people and have found that each tends to prefer one over the other in many example sentences but our preferences are often inverted.

@Tonepoet there is no here and no there … in pure space seems like a decent example of its being a noun.

Mitch

@terdon Other peoples contrary preferences aren't wrong, they're just misguided

Leaky Nun

13:30

@terdon I don't think so. I think it's just a noun abstraction.

Mitch

@terdon It has pronominal features and adverbial ones in that context.

Who? Them.
Where? There.

I think of yesterday as kind of a pronoun for dates of a certain kind

a date is like a proper noun

Leaky Nun

I thought yesterday is an adverb

Mitch

Where? Mt Everest.

When? Yesterday or today but never tomorrow?

M.A.R.

Whence?

Mitch

@LeakyNun I'm pretty sure dictionaries say it is an adverb

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

13:32

We have whence but we don't have whoce, wherece, whyce, or whatce. I think there's a real missed opportunity there.

terdon

@Mitch MW lists it as both: merriam-webster.com/dictionary/yesterday

Mitch

@M.A.R. Everest. Aren't you listening?

M.A.R.

@Mitch Does it have internet there?

What about air?

Mitch

@terdon nice.

probably Merriam's doing

terdon

Never trusted her.

Mitch

13:34

He was the one who joined the Ents to attack Isengard, right?

@M.A.R. I think maybe at the base camp?

@M.A.R. Thin

Leaky Nun

@Mitch does compound particle count?

e.g. vorbei

M.A.R.

German has compound particles?

Ugh

Probably should learn it after French and Japanese, then

Mitch

@LeakyNun No, I'm thinking more like:

12

Q: The sentence with the most prepositions at its end -- does it really work?

What did you bring that book that I don't want to be read to from out of about 'Down Under' up for? I was wondering whether this sentence is actually correct and if it is, whether someone could explain which preposition points to what in that sentence.

@M.A.R. It all depends on the ends. I think of German Grammar as like Latin but with only half the conjugations and declensions.

@M.A.R. they act like a single preposition thing

M.A.R.

What was that theory that said if the grammar is complicated, the vocabulary is simple and vice versa?

Mitch

the theory of what?

sorry. the theory of 'what?'

conservation of entropy?

M.A.R.

13:42

Conservation of language, apparently

We talked about it a while ago in ELL's chat.

Maybe a long while ago

Mitch

latin has pretty complicated vocabulary too so...

Leaky Nun

@Mitch how so?

Mitch

I think there is a reasonable correlation between size of phonological inventory and length of words

Tonepoet

@M.A.R. Did somebody say "conservation of language"? =P

Mitch

ie few sound, longer words.

@LeakyNun 1) they have lots of lexical creations (prefix a preposition to a word to get a new metaphorical word and 2) their word inventory is pretty large

@Tonepoet shhh...

The first rule of library club

Tonepoet

14:09

Leaky Nun

15:27

@Mitch is there a language with simple vocabulary?

Færd

16:34

@LeakyNun Esperanto?

Leaky Nun

@Færd Natural languages?

Færd

I don't know of any.

Mitch

17:39

@LeakyNun Pirahã

terdon

I believe you meant Piraña.

Mitch

It's the simplest for everything. no embedding. no relative clauses, periphrastic, no numbers, 2 vowels and 3 consonants

@terdon or Paraná

Leaky Nun

@terdon it's a language

Mitch

Pirahã

The Pirahã (pronounced [piɾaˈhã]) are an indigenous people of the Amazon Rainforest in Brazil. A subgroup of the Mura people, they are hunter-gatherers. They live mainly on the banks of the Maici River in Humaitá and Manicoré in the state of Amazonas. As of 2010, they number 420 individuals. The Pirahã people do not call themselves Pirahã but instead the Hi'aiti'ihi, roughly translated as "the straight ones." The Pirahã language and culture have a number of unusual features, and are sometimes described as "primitive." However, anthropological linguist Daniel Everett said: The Pirahã are supremely...

terdon

@LeakyNun Yes. That was a joke.

Leaky Nun

17:41

> The Pirahã people [...] call themselves [...] "the straight ones."

Mitch

every one else is crooked

Tonepoet

@terdon I thought this was the joke. XP

terdon

It was!

I just like the similarity between the words Piraña and Pirahã.

@Mitch Or stoned.

Leaky Nun

> They call any other language "crooked head".

Mitch

They also have no colors, calling things 'blood-colored' or 'leaf colored'

and only two tenses.

past and future

for the present they use the past and point at the ground

Færd

17:53

OK, what is underwear called in that?

Mitch

They tend to know Portuguese so for any complicated concept they just use 'saudade'

@Færd They live in the Amazon. Underwear is overkill.

Færd

Overkill then. Thanks.

Mitch

De nada

or as the Pirahã would say:

Færd

Færd:

Jason Bourne

21:21

@Mitch I really like Calvin Klein underwear, very sexy.

Turbo

22:31

What do you think of this short speech for the Green Party? Does it win you over?

(This is for a general election simulation that we're doing in school.)

Is there anything you would tweak?

Tonepoet

@Turbo Are there any hard facts in your simulated scenario you could cite that prove the generator is a waste of money? Also, it reads as if the Communists have a plan to solve an energy crisis, and the Greens don't. With a name like the green party, I'm assuming you want sustainable power. Maybe you should write a little more about the benefits of those energy production sources over the nuclear reactor, like resource renewability.

Turbo

@Tonepoet Thanks, I've added our solar panel installation policy

@Tonepoet Other than that, do you think it delivers impactfully? Will it generate applause?

Tonepoet

@Turbo Hmm, I'm not exactly sure how to judge that. I assume it is going to be a spoken speech, right?

Turbo

@Tonepoet That's correct, as a notice to be delivered at the end of assembly

Tonepoet

22:54

@Turbo Then the typographic considerations aren't so important. Unfortunately, I am not so sure about how to judge the effectiveness of other people's rhetoric, but I do have a few suggestions. For starters, I probably wouldn't use a contraction in a formal speech, and I would use a stronger auxilary verb. You should also know that sounds much better than "And you also wouldn't be surprised", esp. since they might be surprised.

And that's also in part because "And" is superfluous when you're using also anyway.

Turbo

@Tonepoet I see, I've made the alteration. Thanks for the suggestion!

Tonepoet

@Turbo Also, strictly speaking, nor needs to come after a term of negation, namely neither or not. I can't think of how to to alter the sentence in a way that's still effective, which still uses nor, but you can replace it "Nor is it feasible." with "and extremely unfeasible."

Turbo

@Tonepoet I've changed it to: "They intend to refit the DT department with a nuclear power generator - which is not only a huge waste of money, but it is also completely impractical."

Tonepoet

@Turbo How 'bout "a complete waste of money, and entirely impractical"? You don't need to be saying "it is" after but, due to the rule of conjunction reduction.

Turbo

@Tonepoet Done! Thanks for your help :)

Cerberus

23:08

@terdon Excellent question. Cf. In the house was only you / ?In the house were only you.

So I think maybe this extends beyond the set phrase there is?

Perhaps you really doesn't like agreement with the verb when the verb comes before it?

Then again, never have you betrayed me so.

I'm not sure.

Tonepoet

23:32

@Turbo My internet went out for a moment, but I'm back now. I just have a few more suggestions "important" instead of "special". "Deeply flawed" instead of hole-ridden and finally, I'm not sure if ending the sentence with "vote for" is the best way to word it. What position of power is under consideration for this election?

Turbo

@Tonepoet Well it's the equivalent of the UK election in June 2017, so the winning party's leader would become prime minister

But I appreciate your commitment to getting this right :)

Tonepoet

@Turbo In that case, perhaps "vote into power" would work better. My opinion is that it is better to avoid dangling prepositions when it's easy to do so, since prepositions have a sort of mildly conjunctive force that leaves the reader anticipating another word that renders them anti-climatic.

Turbo

@Tonepoet I see and I've made the relevant changes, well I appreciate your help :) Good night

Tonepoet

@Turbo Or maybe "vote into office" since it is a single seat that is being filled.

@Turbo Good luck.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…