English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

1:58 AM

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M *problema

2:09 AM

el problema, el programa, el tema, el planeta, el cometa, el prisma, el clima, el drama, el morfema, el enigma, el estigma, el idioma, el aroma, el sistema, el pirata, el mapa, el papa, el día

That is not an exhaustive list, but it is an illustrative one.

Cerberus

None of those are feminine in Greek.

Dies is normally masculine in Latin.

Only mapa I cannot explain, but then I do not know its origin.

tchrist

> Del b. lat. mappa, toalla, plano de una finca rústica

Cerberus

> Latin mappa "napkin, cloth" (on which maps were drawn), "tablecloth, signal-cloth, flag," said by Quintilian to be of Punic origin (compare Talmudic Hebrew mappa, contraction of Mishnaic menaphah "a fluttering banner, streaming cloth")

tchrist

b. lat. = bajo latín

Cerberus

What is finca?

tchrist

2:14 AM

Like a farm I think.

A ranch?

> Propiedad inmueble, rústica o urbana.

Cerberus

A rustic farm, then.

tchrist

Somebody's property. Land.

But toalla is towel, for Pete's sake.

Cerberus

Like toile.

tchrist

Yes.

Cerberus

By why is it masculine?

tchrist

2:16 AM

By about 800, I should imagine.

Cerberus

It's f. in Latin.

tchrist

It can be either.

It depends on the sense.

> 1. m. Representación geográfica de la Tierra o parte de ella en una superficie plana.
2. m. Representación geográfica de una parte de la superficie terrestre, en la que se da información relativa a una ciencia determinada. Mapa lingüístico, topográfico, demográfico.
3. f. coloq. p. us. Lo que sobresale en un género, habilidad o producción. La ciudad de Toro es la mapa de las frutas.

So 1 and 2 are masculine but 3 is feminine.

But really, almost always it is masculine. I don't know when it started to be such. I could look in El Çid if you'd like.

> “Mapa” es masculino en el español actual, aunque etimológicamente era femenino y así fue al comienzo en español, al igual que sigue siendo, si no me equivoco, en italiano (la mappa) y en francés (la mappe) por ejemplo.

So it changed.

Nice contrast between era and fue there.

I went to the store today to buy a wedding card and was astonished to find not just Mr&Mrs cards but also Mr&Mr and Mrs&Mrs cards. If I can see such things in my lifetime, then surely words’ genders can mutate in the fullness of time.

But most of it we can blame on the Greeks.

room topic changed to English Language & Usage: Smelly is to green as sense is to this chat room [elu-the-sequel]

Including the room topic.

Cerberus

2:54 AM

Haha.

What did the Greeks do with mappa?

I still have trouble distinguishing between perfect and imperfect in the Romance languages, despite having studied the difference in Latin.

tchrist

@Cerberus No, the rest I blame on them.

@Cerberus I bet it’s because it’s ser that things seem mushy. I doubt you would hesitate in choosing the right Latin tense between say peccabam and peccavi.

The question is whether it is the descriptive/repetitive past, or whether it is the completed past. So is it recounting a lasting condition or is it talking about a transient state that occurred and was done with occurring.

Think of era as used to be; think of fue as did be ugly though that sounds.

At least here.

Pretty sure Latin had the same distinction. It does not come naturally to Germanic speakers, perhaps.

But it is something one must always keep firmly in mind in every single Romance language.

I'm pretty sure you can read Spanish well enough for this to be of use to you:

> Gramaticalmente, la diferencia es que "era" corresponde al tiempo pretérito (o pasado) imperfecto; mientras que "fue" es el pretérito perfecto simple.

Ahora bien, se usa "era" cuando se refiere a la acción del verbo "ser" en un pasado que ha tenido cierta duración o que la acción no ha terminado: "Cuando era niño, iba al circo" (era e iba están en imperfecto), "Mientras leía el periódico, me acordé de que tenía examen".

En cambio, "fue" se usa para referirse a una acción más lejana en el tiempo (en un punto del tiempo) o que finalizó (acción finita): "Él fue un buen alumno" (el verbo se…

"When I was a boy, I would go to the circus."

Well, or he. Can't tell, and doesn't matter. :)

"What I was reading the newspaper, I remembered that I had (was having) a test."

"He was a great student." — but those days are gone.

"Yesterday was my birthday." — that day too is gone.

lejana is distant.

There is a typo of uja for una in that text.

Fixed.

Eventually you get used to it, develop a feel for it.

I remember when @Robusto was learning all this.

Note that was learning would be in the imperfect. :)

Although I might use a progressive, like iba aprendiendo.

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