English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

George Pompidou

8:00 PM

less functional, for sure.

less configurable and many other flaws, yes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@GeorgePompidou See, less functional means demonstrably worse.

Cerberus

@GeorgePompidou I have seen many Iphones with minor flaws.

George Pompidou

but more consistent, clean, smooth… you'd be insane to disagree

Cerberus

They don't have better products at all.

@GeorgePompidou Where you see smooth, I see tacky.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@GeorgePompidou We've had this talk before. The three of us, in this room. I consider you insane for disagreeing with me.

George Pompidou

8:01 PM

horse horse horse horse horse horse horse horse horse horse horse horse horse horse horse horse horse horse

Cerberus

But I will give you this: Samsung is just as overpriced as Apple.

crl

that's the price of hegemony

George Pompidou

which is ridiculous when they crank out cheaper crap

Cerberus

Actually, Samsung's top phones are consistently more expensive to manufacture than Iphones, haven't you seen the figures?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I consider the lack of widgets to be a major flaw. The fact that the phone always shows app icons is annoying clutter. The lack of a back button is a major usability flaw. Actually the fact that it has only one hardware button and that that button is crammed with non-discoverable features is bad UX.

Cerberus

8:02 PM

The BOM is usually 50% higher.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Apple has some features that are better implemented than Android, and vice versa, but to claim a blanket UX superiority is just nuts. There's just no way it's true.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I recently had to use an Iphone, and I was baffled by the lack of a back button. Do they have a specific reason why they don't have a back button?

George Pompidou

look, to anyone who knows something of technology, the completely closed and controlled manufacturing/developing process of apple products has many problems. but I just think it's obvious that being the same company in control of the software and hardware provides for better UX overall. how can you disagree with this? Android is a decentralized disaster. every manufacturer fucks it to suit their platform, and it ends up inconsistent.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I have no idea.

George Pompidou

providing the same software for a bajillion different hardwares always ends up slightly more messy than what Apple does.

happened with Windows too, it's just an inevitable flaw. I'm not blaming them for it, but it is nonetheless the case that Android is a bit of a mess right now.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8:04 PM

@GeorgePompidou Give me one good example of something where the "complete control" of the hardware and software gives Apple a distinct advantage.

Cerberus

@GeorgePompidou That is the opposite of obvious. Which is why more of the expensive Android phones are sold than Iphones, at least in markets where people have to pay the actual price of the phone.

Windows is of course more capable than OSX.

Messier, yes. But more capable.

But Android is no messier than IOS.

George Pompidou

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't think I need to. I am stunned that you don't see how control over hardware and software leads to better quality products.

Cerberus

Perhaps unless you buy an Android that is fucked up by a carrier in a dysfunctional market.

George Pompidou

if you really don't see it, which I find hard to believe, then I don't know how I can argue it. it's just completely obvious.

Windows is not more capable than OSX Cerb, you're talking out your ass.

they're both capable of doing the same things.

Cerberus

Even LG and Samsung now have fairly decent interpretations of Android. Nexus and HTC have always been decent.

George Pompidou

8:07 PM

OS X is based on BSD which is a unix-like OS. this was THE operating system before Windows ever existed. unix-like operating systems are just as capable if not more so than Windows.

Cerberus

@GeorgePompidou Windows gives you more control, is what people tell me. And there are more programmes for it. You can't use e.g. Autohotkey on OSX, nor some equivalent.

George Pompidou

yes yes, autohotkey, whatever. doesn't mean it's more capable.

Cerberus

That is a different argument.

George Pompidou

the developers of autohotkey, it's their prerogative what platform they develop for.

Cerberus

1. You have more control. 2. Larger ecosystem.

Both significant advantages.

George Pompidou

8:08 PM

but unix/linux/osx are all just as capable as windows in every way.

Cerberus

But anyway, this discussion is not very fruitful.

Did I mention that I find it ridiculous how many people spend €1200 on an Apple computer while a €400 Windows computer would suit them fine?

George Pompidou

I mean, hell, my boss asked me to install Git and Node.js on his windows computer a few months ago, and that was a fucking tall order. I struggled for hours. in OS X I can write a 3 line shell script to do it.

shell script in windows? similar functionality? please point me to it.

wait, don't, I don't care. because windows is a piece of garbage.

even typing an ß is difficult in Windows.

@Cerberus sure, everyone has. and really, nobody cares.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@GeorgePompidou All I want is one example of something that Apple can do that, say, Motorola or Samsung cannot do. One feature that Apple can produce.

George Pompidou

it's everyone's prerogative to buy whatever they want, whether it's a steamy pile of shit or a nice Apple computer

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 good design, consistent experience.

there's two.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@GeorgePompidou cmd.exe is a shell scripting language that has been available on PCs since forever. Also, newer versions of Windows come with PowerShell, which is in many ways more powerful than any traditional shell script.

George Pompidou

8:13 PM

and please back me up in saying that OS X is at least just as functional as Windows.

Cerberus

@GeorgePompidou The jury disagrees. Besides, those aren't features.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@GeorgePompidou Stop talking out your ass, be specific.

George Pompidou

design and consistency is specific.

Cerberus

Those aren't "things a phone can done", and, besides, they are contested.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@GeorgePompidou No, "good design" is totally vague. What constitutes "good design"? How does having full control of the hardware AND software make that possible for Apple but impossible for everyone else?

Also, what does "consistency" even mean? The hardware is somehow consistent with the software?

What does that mean

George Pompidou

8:15 PM

it means that today my set of inputs will result in the same output as the same set of inputs will tomorrow. and on my other device. and on my friend's device. and with another software.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@GeorgePompidou So... that's consistency within the OS? or what

George Pompidou

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 is that why when you install Git on windows, it has to come with its own shell instead of just setting the path to point to the new executables in PowerShell?

if I open up a command prompt in windows and type git

it does not do anything.

it's not a proper shell.

to change my environment variables in windows it's a 25 step process involving start >my computer > preferences >blah blah >advanced settings

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@GeorgePompidou Git on windows is a terrible example. It's not Windows' fault that the Git developers don't support it properly. Just like it's not MacOS's fault that Autohotkey doesn't work there.

George Pompidou

write me a cmd.exe script to install git, node version manager, and the latest version of node on windows.

maximum 3 lines.

I am not expecting you to do it because it's impossible.

windows is such trash, and everyone knows it. lalalalala, everyone knows it! sings the everyone knows windows sucks song

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's possible in one line if I have certain command-line tools installed.

George Pompidou

8:19 PM

pff

yeah, very functional

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I write .bat files all the time.

George Pompidou

you have to install things which should be included to begin with

that's what everyone always tells me about windows. IT'S POSSIBLE IF YOU INSTALL SO AND SO

well, duh

of course more is possible if you install more

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So, that's it then? Apple's big usability win for Macs is that they pre-install sh and curl?

big fucking deal then

George Pompidou

nah

nope

that's unix/linux's big usability win for every OS besides windows.

I'm not even talking about mac anymore.

it's just that every OS in the world, you can open up a shell and do anything right off the bat

with Windows, though, you have to click start, click blah blah, click this, click that, go to this tab

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Yeah. cuz Unix and Linux have won the usability wars so much, their two most popular variants don't even use any of the unix userland.

George Pompidou

8:21 PM

I've had it with clicking around

windows blows. I'm out.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I find it a bit incomprehensible that you're advocating for Mac OS on the basis that it has Unix under the hood, and that THAT is what makes it more usable. Did you know Android has Linux under the hood?

Therefore it must be super usable!

George Pompidou

it sure is

I never disagreed with that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Much better than IOS where you can't do anything

George Pompidou

windows is usable too, I also don't disagree with that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

you have to touch this, touch that, fuck it. Where's my CLI?

George Pompidou

8:23 PM

look man, usability is a silly thing to argue. that's what I'm trying to say. there's nary a thing which I cannot do on an iPhone, Android, Windows, Linux, or OS X. if you have half a brain, all of those things have the same exact functionality.

I'm just saying that Windows fucking blows, and Android is poorly designed and a total disaster. subjective and vague? sure. am I being annoying? sure.

well, I should say, half a brain and Google. and three weeks if you are doing it on Windows.

I really wish I could understand that German shark joke on the right. it's been almost a week and still nothing.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@GeorgePompidou There are lots of things an iphone can't do that an Android can. For one thing, on Android you can use NFC for a variety of things.

George Pompidou

like convenient payments at stores?

awwwwwwww, no, you can't. derp.

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It’s a bitch for combining characters, though. :)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@GeorgePompidou Yes, Android users had that feature two years ago.

George Pompidou

bullshit.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8:35 PM

well, it's true. Look up "Google Wallet"

George Pompidou

I mean, sure, you had the feature but couldn't use it anywhere, haha.

great.

Cerberus

@GeorgePompidou Can your phone wake up automatically when you take it out of your pocket? Can it run a Privacy manager? Can it unlock automatically whenever you connect to your home Wifi?

George Pompidou

and on what, like three of the 5000 android phones on the market?

big whoop.

Cerberus

Off the top of my third head.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway I've used NFC for lots of things that are still impossible on iOS because Apple doesn't want you to do those things.

@GeorgePompidou No, it wasn't phone dependent.

Cerberus

8:36 PM

@GeorgePompidou Can you read books on your Iphone with a comfortable PPI?

George Pompidou

yes it was. only some android phones have NFC antennas.

tchrist

@Cerberus Just a twitch of the cheek and it’s off dialing the terrorists.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@GeorgePompidou Pretty much all mid and high end android phones have had NFC since 2010.

Cerberus

@tchrist Sure, it could do that! All terrorists use Androids, didn't you know?

George Pompidou

that's not what I heard. but okay.

Cerberus

8:37 PM

My Galaxy Nexus has NFC.

I think it came out in 2010?

tchrist

@Cerberus Suicide androids are easier to come by.

Cerberus

Oh, it was 2011.

@tchrist Flying ones?

We need butterfly nets.

As XKCD says.

tchrist

You've been reading The Economist again.

Cerberus

I have not!

I only glance at some article when people send me one.

tchrist

economist.com/news/science-and-technology/…

Cerberus

8:43 PM

Ah OK.

Sure, this problem is hardly new.

George Pompidou

am I a horrendous asshole if I started reading Monocle? or just a moderate asshole?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@GeorgePompidou Is that a trick question?

George Pompidou

I don't even know. I just want to gauge if I'll be ridiculed in public if I read this anywhere outside of my room with the windows closed.

and how much, and whether I will care about the type of ridicule.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

9:03 PM

time to jet. bye

crl

9:46 PM

bite to met. jye

George Pompidou

hmm.

Cerberus

Bizzles.

George Pompidou

@Cerberus, are the happy Dutch folk of Amsterdam at all irritated by annoying Americans going to coffee shops to get pot all the time?

err, I meant tourists in general.

are they considered pesky?

Cerberus

Tourists in general are considered very pesky, yes.

But at least they're fairly quiet when they're on weed, so we like that.

George Pompidou

aww :<

I don't want to bother the nice Dutch people.

Cerberus

9:51 PM

And we don't usually go to coffee shops, so they don't bother us there.

Brits have the worst reputation.

George Pompidou

ah, so there's nothing particularly pesky about the coffee shops aspect of it

?

Cerberus

Well, there are two kinds of tourists in Amsterdam: museum tourists and drugs/hookers tourists.

George Pompidou

huh. I'm going to be a museum/drugs tourist.

hookers sounds disgusting.

Cerberus

The latter are louder, and the former at least have noble motives. But both of them stand still in the middle of the street and clog up the entire inner city.

Yes, mixed tourists are a fairly large group too.

George Pompidou

ah. well at least I'm a more experienced traveler than that.

Cerberus

9:53 PM

Good, good.

Articles appear in the papers every week, about how there are too many tourists in Amsterdam, too many for the city to bear.

George Pompidou

I only plan on going to a coffee shop once to buy a little and take it with me to the hotel. otherwise my brand of tourism is generally walking around with my headphones on and camera out, exploring neighborhoods.

Cerberus

Are you here now?

George Pompidou

nope. I'll be there friday morning. but, interesting update in my plans, one of my best friends from Chicago is coming to Amsterdam a week from when I'll be there, so I'm going to come back and hang out with him there too.

Cerberus

@GeorgePompidou That is good: just make sure you watch out for bikes always, and don't stand still on the street.

George Pompidou

@Cerberus I learned the watch out for bikes lesson in Germany.

Cerberus

9:55 PM

@GeorgePompidou Yay! Very good.

George Pompidou

yep. so Friday - Sunday, and then probably Thursday - Monday after that.

good thing I'm like 2 hours away by IC

I plan to discover some new neighborhoods to which I haven't been yet. I also like shipyards, do you find that weird?

I explore shipyards in most major port cities I visit.

Cerberus

@GeorgePompidou Good, good. What some unscrupulous bikers do is keep driving at full speed towards a blissfully distracted tourist who's blocking the street, then brake at the very last moment, with screaming brakes. That gives them a heart attack and teaches them to pay attention to traffic. Of course I would never do such a thing...

No, shipyards are fairly nice.

George Pompidou

that's happened to me four times. I'm a stubborn american and don't learn lessons easily.

Cerberus

Heh.

George Pompidou

but I'm good now. I keep such a sharp eye when I have my headphones on.

Cerberus

9:57 PM

Good.

George Pompidou

any tips on cool neighborhoods to explore?

Cerberus

Hmm depends on what you've already seen, and what you're interested in?

George Pompidou

I've adventured throughout the whole area with the hexagonal canals, and the area just southeast of that where the Concertgebouw is. but other than that I haven't seen too much of Amsterdam.

Cerberus

Those are the best areas.

George Pompidou

southwest*

ah, haha.

they are certainly why I love Amsterdam.

Cerberus

9:59 PM

I wouldn't go to the Bijlmer.

Nor to the Western parts outside or just within the ringway.

George Pompidou

there's a giant beautiful park near the Concertgebouw and Van Gogh museum

I want to go there again, that was nice.

Cerberus

The Vondelpark.

George Pompidou

yeah!

Cerberus

It is a bit like a camping ground when the weather is nice, too many people!

The part farthest from the inner city is the quietest.

George Pompidou

ah, schade

I hate people

Cerberus

10:00 PM

Yeah.

George Pompidou

my professor decided to make our first exam a week from today, so I'll have to spend a lot of time in Amsterdam thinking that I should be studying and being mildly upset that I'm not, but in the end not caring.

Cerberus

Then go somewhere where you can study, such as a park or a nice café.

If the weather is nice.

George Pompidou

no no, no actual studying.

you might have misread.

Cerberus

Very well...

George Pompidou

actually it was more meant as a joke. it's my logic programming class which I find incredibly easy.

Cerberus

10:06 PM

Oh, very good.

George Pompidou

my friend wants to rent a houseboat when we are there

grumbles

likes 5 star hotels

@Cerberus anything interesting directly east or west of the train station, along the waterway?

also anything interesting north of there, across the water?

crl

amsterdam.info/sights/top10

George Pompidou

I've never been to that whole red circled area.

but it looks cool on the map.

crl

it's quite fluvial

Cerberus

@GeorgePompidou Why a houseboat? They are usually no more or less expensive than ordinary apartments, nor any more or less luxurious.

George Pompidou

10:15 PM

I have no idea, that's what I'm saying.

Cerberus

@GeorgePompidou Depends on what interests you!

George Pompidou

seeing cool shit

by cool shit I mean just anything nice. I just like exploring.

and taking pictures

Cerberus

@GeorgePompidou Most of the red circle you should probably skip, except the Watergraafsmeer and the Indische Buurt.

crl

with a bike you can explore everything in a few days

Cerberus

@GeorgePompidou The areas just north of the Central Station across the water are kind of upcoming. If you like modern architecture, visit EYE, the film museum. And probably the NDSM Wharf.

George Pompidou

10:18 PM

@crl and go home with achy testicles? no thank you.

I'm not into biking.

crl

haha, well too bad

Vélo hollandais

Le vélo hollandais désigne un type de vélo caractéristique, essentiellement destiné à un usage urbain quotidien, ceci par opposition à un vélo destiné à la route ou aux loisirs comme le VTT. Cette appellation n'est pas un abus de langage car il désigne non seulement un vélo fabriqué en Hollande mais surtout un type de vélo bien particulier, né et utilisé dans ce pays avant de se répandre un peu partout dans le monde. Aujourd'hui, la mode du vélo urbain se répandant de plus en plus, il connait un grand succès. Un vélo tout terrain ou un vélo de route même fabriqué aux Pays-Bas ne sera ainsi pas...

George Pompidou

oh, another thing I like

are there any tall buildings which I can get to the top of?

or tall anything?

crl

List of tallest buildings in Amsterdam

This is a list of tallest buildings in Amsterdam. == Buildings == == See also == List of tallest buildings in the Netherlands List of tallest buildings in Rotterdam List of tallest buildings in Haaglanden...

I don't see any opened for visits, but you can probably ask

but they are not really tall

135m for the highest, in comparison the Eiffel Tower is 301m

George Pompidou

I'm asking @Cerberus, not you

@crl height is relative to things around it man.

there's not an eiffel tower right next to the tallest building in Amsterdam totally obstructing the view.

otherwise I'd just climb up that one

and even then the eiffel tower is tiny compared to the sears tower where I'm from.

Cerberus

@GeorgePompidou Mm probably some churches, I don't know.

No tall buildings are allowed near the nice parts of town.

By the ringway, there are of course many modern towers. You can probably get to the top of some.

George Pompidou

10:30 PM

eh, anywhere really. usually business areas have them. like in Chicago, many of the tall business buildings will let you get to the top for $20 or so

Cerberus

People like the Okura hotel, which is fairly high, but probably not high to your standards.

George Pompidou

if it's high to Amsterdam standards, I wanna do it.

I like a view from up high.

Cerberus

Then go to the bar that is high up in the Okura hotel.

I don't think they will let you onto the roof, but the bar has a very nice view.

George Pompidou

a high up bar! perfect!

theeeannks!

Cerberus

It is of course overpriced.

The restaurant in the hotel has a couple of Michelin stars.

George Pompidou

10:32 PM

@Cerberus pff, I'm overpaid.

Cerberus

Good for you.

George Pompidou

hmm…

michelin stars you say

I'll have to do some research.

there are three michelin starred restaurants in the same building.

that's so cool.

Cerberus

This is Europe, man!

Every sausage stand in France has Michelin stars, they're somewhat chauvinistic...

George Pompidou

yeah but French people grind my gears.

Cerberus

However, I don't like modern architecture, and I find the whole Okura hotel somewhat nouveau riche.

George Pompidou

10:38 PM

all I've been hearing from this French girl in my building is how annoying Americans are to her. they do this and they do that, blah blah. at least we are not intolerant snobs like the French.

she pisses me off so much.

Cerberus

Hehe.

Does she say those things to your face?

And aren't you doing the same thing to her right now?

George Pompidou

yep. in a very dumb way, like "I know you are American and I don't want to offend you but you fucking Americans come to France and you don't even say bonjour you say hello, like do you know even one word in French?"

the fact is, Americans are in general more tolerant to foreigners than the French.

but yes, you're right.

I'm hating on her. I suppose I have a double standard in that respect, because the French piss me off.

ever seen a French person around here? no. they're too busy having their heads up their own French asses and thinking French is the only language worth knowing.

Cerberus

I have.

I really like Alain.

And you have to admit she is right about most Americans and their language skills.

George Pompidou

huh.

but do French people speak many more languages than typical Americans?

there are many languages in the world, and you can't expect every tourist to speak the language of the country in which they're traveling.

English is a very common one, so it's reasonable to hear in many places.

in any case. she is right. of course, I was just ragging on Americans being unaware of the world yesterday. but the way she complains is just ridiculous.

especially to my face, with such a condescending and annoying tone

@Cerberus do the Dutch get frustrated about people not knowing their language?

I always feel really bad when I expect people to know English. I always try to seem like I'm offering to speak English as one of many alternatives, as unlikely as it is that someone else would speak Romanian or French, haha.

Cerberus

10:59 PM

@GeorgePompidou The French are pretty bad as well.

Mitch

@Cerberus Everything is the same in the two factories, except in the Samsung factory, if you make a mistake, you lose a vacation day. At the Apple fctory, you lose a(nother) finger.

George Pompidou

@Mitch haha

Mitch

@GeorgePompidou Exactly. I've said the same thing before (but not so clearly).

George Pompidou

you know, I try to be succinct and effective.

I feel it just is easier for everyone.

Mitch

@GeorgePompidou You're much too free with letting people ride your bike.

@GeorgePompidou it sounds like I'm making fun, but seriously, I've always used 'horse', it is the right word (it doesn't have any quickly obvious slang synonyms). Actually, I don't know enough about Samsung to say anything authoritatively, so maybe I don't agree.

George Pompidou

11:09 PM

I'm serious too.

Mitch

@Cerberus I think France is the exact opposite...there are so many excellent restaurants that you can go to a formal meal at a fancy place that doesn't have any stars. Getting one star is like winning the olympics.

George Pompidou

@Mitch in most places. but aside from Japan, the most michelin starred restaurants are indeed in France.

Japan is winning by a long shot though.

Mitch

@GeorgePompidou Yeah, exactly. Europeans think Americans are so racist, but they're much worse.

George Pompidou

of course. America is mostly composed of foreigners. Europeans (in particular, in my experience, French, English, and Germans) are much less tolerant.

Mitch

It's just totally out in the open in the US. not being racist but talking about racism.

George Pompidou

11:13 PM

I'm talking about intolerance to foreigners.

Mitch

@GeorgePompidou of those three, English are the worst.

George Pompidou

racism is another thing on which I will never comment.

nope, French in my opinion.

Mitch

@GeorgePompidou Oh. I'm sorta combining them.

George Pompidou

yeah, I think there are many racial issues in the US. whatever.

I'm talking about being okay with foreigners. Europeans have much more trouble with it than Americans.

most Americans are actually so impressed by and happy with foreigners…

Mitch

@GeorgePompidou English people wil be racist to one's face. French don't do that (in my limited experience).

George Pompidou

11:15 PM

they'll be like whooooaaaa, you're from wheere?

Mitch

@GeorgePompidou really? they're not unimpressed?

Are you in a program with other students from all over?

@GeorgePompidou on average yes, they have very good language programs in schools (not as good as the Dutch or the Scandinavian countires), way better than England (which is almost like the US in slowly not caring about learning languages).

George Pompidou

a program?

no it's mostly German kids here.

hmm

I wonder where all these bugs are coming from.

I machened the Fenster zu

yet they keep popping up

Mitch

11:42 PM

@GeorgePompidou I thought you were in enlightened detente with the bug world.

George Pompidou

you're such a chat excavator, Mitch.