English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

@Cerberus Like 'The people for the American Way' . It tells you nothing about which direction left or right it is, but you know they're really uptight.

Cerberus

@Mitch Haha, exactly.

Although that sounds rather right-wing.

Mitch

2:53 AM

or populism. it sounds so ... popular, what could be bad about that!

Cerberus

Since it is patriotic.

Well, look at popular music and films, like Fifty Shades...

Freedom in Holland is of course liberal, so it is generally associated with the right.

Mitch

The title is so meaningful. Life is nuance.

Cerberus

But the Partij voor de Vrijheid is more like the right end of the horseshoe.

You know the horseshoe in politics?

Mitch

@Cerberus liberal doesn't = left?

Cerberus

Well, there is liberal right and liberal left. But the largest right-wing party is liberal right: personal freedom, but also corporate freedom.

Mitch

2:56 AM

@Cerberus is the 'horseshoe' how the more extreme on either side you get, they sort of wrap around and have a lot more that's alike?

Cerberus

Similarly, there is liberal right and conservative right.

@Mitch Ding!

Conservative right is Christian democrats.

Mitch

oh that liberal right (in the US, the libertarians, though they don't always agree with them, are usually on the right).

@Cerberus like the Germans?

Cerberus

Right, libertarians are what we would call extreme liberals, right?

@Mitch Yes, they are the largest party, or the second largest party, in many countries. But not any more so in Holland, not the last couple of decades; we live in a post-Christian society now.

Socialists (moderate left-wing) and liberals (somewhat moderate right-wing) are now our largest parties, but the socialists are set to lose the coming provincial elections.

The other socialists (staunch left-wing), who partly come from the former communist party, are set to become the largest left-wing party.

The liberal democrats (liberal left-wing) are predicted to win big time too.

Mitch

here libertarians are all for personal freedoms. very non-government in order to reduce personal taxes, but also pro choice and pro gay marriage. so the first part happens to be associated with the republican right (and the second part not).

Cerberus

But the liberals (somewhat moderate right-wing) will remain the largest.

@Mitch Right, that is true liberalism.

Mitch

3:06 AM

Oh so basically we have the same politics, just different names.

Wow. Now that that's solved, we should work on cancer.

crl

trying to figure out room's description

Cerberus

Haha yup!

Mitch

Ooh I know! I was there!

Cerberus

Except that most of those political currents can't be represented in your parliament.

In practice.

Mitch

In theory either. cuz we ain't got no fancy-ass parliament

'The price of tea in china' = English metaphor for something that really doesn't matter.

'My aunt plays the guitar' = Spanish metaphor for ...

...something that really doesn't matter.

infinitesimal

3:12 AM

Why doesn't the price of tea not matter?

Mitch

Well, if you're buying tea in the US... well, maybe that's a little dated...actually the tea trade was always international.... well anyway it's supposed to mean that the price can change wildly in China with no effect on the price here. whatever the reality is.

Cerberus

@Mitch What do you mean?

infinitesimal

Do I have too many "not"s in that sentence?

Mitch

We don't have a parliament. The congress is representative but it doesn't work like a parliament. Or maybe it is just the entrenchment of two parties that are somewhat monolithic. rather than proportional representation.

@infinitesimal however many nots you had, I answered one interpretation.

infinitesimal

Also, is "not"s allowed?

It looks wierd.

Thanks for your answer @Mitch

crl

3:22 AM

What metric could I use to estimate how good a connect-four board is?

I was thinking of the number of 3 aligned cells, with free ends, and 2 aligned (with a lower weight)

Cerberus

@Mitch Um it is a parliament.

Perhaps you are confused about parliamentary v. presidential systems (yours is presidential, like France's).

A parliament is an official assembly where people talk.

In modern times, usually an elected one that makes rules and regulates government.

crl

or get laws sent by their lobbies

Cerberus

Naturally.

Mitch

@Cerberus OK, yes, then US has a parliament. I'm just remembering vaguely some unspecified statement that for some very specific definition of parliament the US doesn't have that,

sleep calls. let's wait till tomorrow to solve cancer OK?

later!

Cerberus

@Mitch Right!

I've heard other people start the same way.

Sleep well!

Cancer will solve itself.

crl

3:39 AM

Cancer cancels itself

Matt E. Эллен

10:52 AM

@crl so if I get crabs twice I won't have crabs at all?

Thulium past tin

Yes.

and zinc seconds!

I think it could be a 24 hour clock too :-)

Matt E. Эллен

11:05 AM

could be :D

infinitesimal

I noticed the other day that the 24 hour clock has no 24:00

Matt E. Эллен

starts at zero!

infinitesimal

Thus the name is a misnomer

In a cetain sense

One could argue 11:59.999... = 24:00 = 0:00

Matt E. Эллен

it has 24 hours, it's just that the 24th hour is 23

A Beautiful Mind

Yes, that is right. The 24th hour goes from 23.00 to 23.59.

The first hour goes from 0.00 to 1.00.

So, the name is not a misnomer, QED.

Matt E. Эллен

11:12 AM

:D

A Beautiful Mind

Similarly, the 21st century starts in 2001.

And it ends in 2100.

Matt E. Эллен

I wonder what the next year-based apocalypse myth will be

A Beautiful Mind

@MattE.Эллен I will go eat dinner now, later.

Matt E. Эллен

@ABeautifulMind CU

Stack Exchange

Limerick Machine: The man on the hill was annoyed He wanted his mood to be bouyed When people asked why He replied...

posted on February 23, 2015 by sgdi

The man on the hill was annoyed He wanted his mood to be bouyed When people asked why He replied “my oh my” “I just want to be overjoyed”

Matt E. Эллен

11:28 AM

buoyed*

Robusto

12:01 PM

robusto has enough rep xD — Ogen 22 mins ago

Discrimination!

Matt E. Эллен

they're pulling for the underdog

A Beautiful Mind

What happened to Barrie? Seems to have retired.

Matt E. Эллен

yeah. he visits, but doesn't post

A Beautiful Mind

First he retires from job, then site, then life.

Matt E. Эллен

or he finds something else to do each time he moves on from the previous thing

A Beautiful Mind

12:06 PM

For me, my life has not even begun this life.

Robusto

@MattE.Эллен But I answered first! It's so outrageous I should be typing this IN ALL CAPS!!!

Matt E. Эллен

@Robusto YOU ARE THE FASTEST GUN, DAMNIT!

Robusto

I AM THE FASTEST GUN!!!

A Beautiful Mind

@Robusto Your answer is missing a period while his answer has a miscapitalisation. Both are flawed.

Robusto

Thank you, O Trivial Mind.

A Beautiful Mind

12:09 PM

This warrants a third answer from me then.

Robusto

I see SE has gone to a system whereby you are not immediately notified about rep deductions. You only get notified about deductions once you get rep additions. Presumably that is so that down votes can't be correlated easily to a specific time.

Matt E. Эллен

I have no idea. I hadn't even noticed!

Mitch

12:23 PM

If only I knew that downvoter, I'd get him back good.

Matt E. Эллен

that's not how it works

@Mitch and then what? you become embroigled in a downvote war. mutually assured dereputationing

Mitch

As long as I can take that guy down. How dare he.

I don't get it. What are 'hell-tits'? If I knew that, I might get your lesson. Sensei.

Robusto

Work it out, grasshopper.

Mitch

With a toothpick.

Mmmm... A nutty aftertaste.

I'm having trouble typing. Sensei keeps cutting off fingers. I feel a little more enlightened each one but I don't see getting al the way there unless we start on my toes.

Robusto

12:42 PM

@tchrist: Interesting that the sea is feminine in French and masculine in Spanish.

tchrist

12:58 PM

It can be feminine in Spanish if you are being poetic.

Robusto

But how often does that happen?

And you would likely be personifying the sea in that case.

What is the gender in Latin?

tchrist

mare magnum

Robusto

I think it's masculine, no?

tchrist

No.

Neuter.

Robusto

Ah. So if you don't have neuter nouns, you have to drop it in one or the other gender bin.

And each chose differently.

tchrist

1:00 PM

Right.

6

Q: What are the differences between "el mar" and "la mar"?

Another question touched on this issue, but I wanted to ask in more detail. Mar is a noun that can be masculine or feminine. I have heard that there are subtle differences in connotations between the two (for example, one gender is more often used in certain contexts, or one sounds more poetic or...

Robusto

@tchrist Also, in María y el Araña someone wore a tee shirt that said "Hogar el sol." Wouldn't it be "Hogar del sol"?

tchrist

I would think so.

Robusto

But it was some entity's logo, apparently.

Do they allow that sort of variation?

tchrist

Sounds odd.

Robusto

Them pesky Argentinos.

Hmm, I wonder if I should try to purchase my MacBook Pro from the company when I leave at the end of this week.

tchrist

1:05 PM

It seems to be an Argentine thing.

And place.

lavoz.com.ar/ciudadanos/investigan-abusos-hogar-con-chicos

> Hogar del Sol. Los responsables no informaron a los organismos correspondientes sobre los abusos (La Voz).

I think the name of the Hogar is just El Sol. Notice how they instinctively correct/change it in the caption.

Robusto

@tchrist Yeah, that would make sense.

tchrist

cba24n.com.ar/content/…

Robusto

So maybe it's like we might say "Sun Home" instead of "Home of the Sun"?

Titula rasa

tchrist

> Integrantes del Hogar El Sol de la localidad de Malvinas Argentinas se manifestaron en el Ministerio de Desarrollo Social.

Yes, like that.

Manis are protests.

Robusto

Why does it seem that anywhere there are "homes" for children there follow abuses of said children?

tchrist

1:10 PM

Because humans are terrible people.

Robusto

Esa es la verdad.

Matt E. Эллен

so terrible

tchrist

"Manifestarse" and "manifestación" are used in Spanish for demonstrations.

What we would call demonstrations. Big public protests.

Robusto

I'm finding quite a few "false friends" among the cognates, btw.

tchrist

Hm.

Besides embarazar, what else?

Robusto

1:13 PM

I mean, I can see how the words intersect in meaning, but they're not perfectly interchangeable.

Of course, that is true of any language, I suppose.

@tchrist Well, like mantenar, for instance. I would have to think on it to come up with others, or write them down as I go through the exercises.

tchrist

Pasan estas cosas en cualquier idioma que estudies.

Robusto

Pasar is another one.

And, of course, prepositions are all over the map. We say at the door and they say en la puerta, etc.

tchrist

And idioma doesn’t mean idiom. :)

Robusto

3 mins ago, by Robusto

Of course, that is true of any language, I suppose.

What I said.

tchrist

What you would call an idiom in English is more like a modismo, or sometimes a refrán, or dicho fixo.

You do have to learn which preposition goes with which verb. There is no other way.

Depender de for "depends on".

Robusto

1:19 PM

Sad but true.

That's one of the big reasons for learning languages naturally, as opposed to studying them in school.

tchrist

And sometimes verbs take prepositions in one language but not the other. Asistir a for "attend".

Robusto

Yeah. I can't think of any off the top of my head, but I notice that some verbs require a before the object.

tchrist

That's different.

Robusto

And then there's the matter of the reflexive verbs.

tchrist

All verbs take a before an ACCUSATIVE personal object.

It’s not a preposition there; it's an accusative marker of personhood.

Robusto

1:21 PM

Hmm.

tchrist

El perro mordió al hombre. Dog bites man. El hombre mordió el perro. Man bites dog.

Well, bit.

It's called the "a personal" in grammars.

studyspanish.com/lessons/persa.htm

Robusto

What would be the opposite building principle to synthesis?

tchrist

Dissection?

Robusto

I suppose organic? "Most schools teach language as a synthetic process; we, however, teach it organically."

Opposite is probably not the right descriptor. Perhaps rival.

tchrist

> Ejemplos: Yo miro a la muchacha
Ustedes ayudan a los amigos
Nota: ¿Qué es similar en las dos frases de arriba?
¡El objeto directo es una persona!
¿Qué más es similar en las dos frases?
¡Hay una a antes del objeto directo! ¡Perfecto!
En español, eso se llama la a personal.

Robusto

1:30 PM

Here's one: reclamar meaning claim, not reclaim.

tchrist

Well, clamar is something else.

Robusto

So it's yet another false friend.

I conclude that in order to know a language, one has to actually know the language.

tchrist

Reclamar can mean "reclaim".

reclamar

Verb: reclamar

to reclaim
reclamar (first-person singular present indicative reclamo, past participle reclamado)
reclamar (first-person singular present reclamo, first-person singular preterite reclamé, past participle reclamado)

But clamar is shoutier.

> clamar (first-person singular present clamo, first-person singular preterite clamé, past participle clamado)
to call out for

Johan Larsson

I had a Tom question but did not ask it :)

tchrist

@Rob But once you get that reclamar vs clamar thing down, it works for all the Iberian languages.

So ditto Portuguese and Catalan and Asturian, etc.

I don’t count Basque of course. :)

@JohanLarsson February 30th?

Johan Larsson

1:35 PM

nope it was about FontSize

tchrist

Ah.

Johan Larsson

think I ~~solved~~ hacked it

tchrist

@Rob The really hard ones are false friends between Iberian languages. I won’t bother you with those, but I assure you that they bother me. :)

Trying to match x-heights or something?

Johan Larsson

Dropped low level and wanted to top align text when using drawingcontext

tchrist

I’m not perfectly certain what you mean, but I somewhat have an idea.

Johan Larsson

1:38 PM

I just wanted to say I'm in Tom-land

Writing gauge controls.

tchrist

heh

Una tierra mía.

One land of mine.

Lista de falsos amigos português - espanhol / español - portugués

These can come up in very common expressions, and make you say completely the wrong thing in one language even when every single word is identical. "Um largo rato" is a wide rat in PT but "Un largo rato" is a long moment in ES.

Johan Larsson

looks like it is designed to be a trap

tchrist

Rat-trap! :)

Una gran rata is a big rat in Spanish. And a ratón is a mouse not a rat, even though -ón is an augmentative.

Spanish esquisito is the same as English exquisite, but in Portuguese it means bizarre.

So it is true friend in ES=EN but a false friend for ES≠PT and EN≠PT.

Matt E. Эллен

por qué son las palabras "gato" y "gata", pero solamente "rata"?

tchrist

@MattE.Эллен I know. I don't know.

But I’ve a guess.

It’s because we need distinct genders for household (or farmyard) critters we keep.

But not so much for bestias fieras.

vaca, toro.

Matt E. Эллен

1:47 PM

ah, yes that makes sense

tchrist

You can sometimes do it with other creatures if they are -o nouns to start with. Perro/perra, zorro/zorra.

But a female bull is not a *tora. :)

Matt E. Эллен

:D

you say "pato" I say "pata"

tchrist

Well.

That’s a different problem.

Matt E. Эллен

yeah

tchrist

A duck has no paws.

Matt E. Эллен

1:51 PM

like a spider, it has webbed feet

tchrist

But only the quarter part of them.

When all else fails, you can use macho and hembra to respectively specify the male and female version of a creature.

Matt E. Эллен

ah!

tchrist

Like for a mare, you could say caballo hembra if you didn’t know that yegua already means that.

On the other hand, for -e nouns, including people, they often just switch the article and gender, like they do for -ista. El presidente, el periodista for men; la presidente, la periodista for women.

Sometimes you can't do that.

Un cartero is a postman, but una cartera is a billfold.

So you end up with una señora cartero and other monsters.

Matt E. Эллен

I see. quite confusing, but then gender often is

tchrist

So el policía is the policeman meaning one in specific, but la policía is the entire police force, so you need to use una señora policía for a policewoman.

It used to be that the "la" version of a professional was that professional's wife.

La presidente, la alcalde = the wife of the president or mayor

This is considered old fashioned and perhaps even insulting to some today. But it is how it was done when women had no professions.

Today it comes off with the same itchiness as in English using he for a generic singular can.

Matt E. Эллен

2:01 PM

I can imagine

tchrist

Old people think it should be done the old way, and young people feel offended by it.

But this is passing.

Last week my chatty dental hygienist was telling me she needed to pick out a gift for her brother-in-law's birthday. I asked whether it was her sister's husband or her husband's brother. She said neither, it’s my husband’s brother’s husband. I was a bit embarrassed because I just don’t think of those combos. :)

Matt E. Эллен

I wouldn't have either :D

just not a habit yet

maybe the next generation or the one after that

Robusto

Or maybe the pendulum will swing the other way, as often happens.

Matt E. Эллен

people will stop getting married?

or, how do you mean?

Robusto

I mean people will react against calling things a certain way.

There will be backlash.

Fashions in language come and go the way they do in clothing.

Matt E. Эллен

2:13 PM

so people wouldn't call ones brother's husband a brother in law?

Robusto

I have no idea. I am just saying to expect change.

> You can't step into the same river twice.

Matt E. Эллен

but I mean, is that what you mean by backlash?

Robusto

Whatever one generation chooses to call something, the next generation may rebel against that.

Matt E. Эллен

oh

Robusto

And why are you giving me the third degree about this? I'm just trying to give you the benefit of my observations gleaned over a lifetime.

Matt E. Эллен

2:15 PM

I'm not giving you the third degree. I was just trying to understand you.

Johan Larsson

where is the third degree?

Robusto

25 years ago I would wear a coat and tie to interact in person with clients. Today I wouldn't even think to do that. But coats and ties are coming back, or so I'm told.

For a while it was considered chic to wear a suit with no tie. Now nobody does that.

Matt E. Эллен

@JohanLarsson a long, harsh questionning

Johan Larsson

legal thing?

Matt E. Эллен

@JohanLarsson maybe

Mitch

2:20 PM

@tchrist I don't think two-marriage distance counts as '-in-law'. That would be in-law-in-law.

@Robusto uptalk goes with the hemline

@Robusto But you can in the same dog crap.

Matt E. Эллен

> An interrogation of a prisoner by the police involving the infliction of mental or physical suffering in order to bring about a confession or to secure information. orig. U.S.

Johan Larsson

ouch

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен Stop pestering the old man, you good for nothing whippersnapper with your libertine ways.

Robusto

@Mitch I don't crap in dogs. It's one of my more attractive features.

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch I don't use lemoline! I'm naturally beautiful

Mitch

2:23 PM

@MattE.Эллен Or metaphorically, what Matt does.

Robusto

@Mitch Who you calling old? I'm differently aged.

Mitch

@Robusto If that's the best you got...

Robusto

Learn to appreciate ironic self-mockery. You'll need it as you get older.

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch gets the beating sticks ready

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен Which brings up the question, why do people eat or drink aloe when it's real hard to get sunburn there?

Matt E. Эллен

2:24 PM

metaphorically speaking

Mitch

@Robusto Yeah sorry man, really different.

@Robusto You're exhibiting ironic self-monkery. Ewww!

@MattE.Эллен _ ow ow ow _ Stop it! Mom! ow sunuva ow ... metaphorically

Robusto

Matt is not your mom, nor even your ex-girlfriend.

Matt E. Эллен

it's true!

Mitch

Sorry, Matt, it could have worked out but the age distance is too much.

Also the distance distance.

Johan Larsson

don't give up

Mitch

2:29 PM

There's always hope.

Matt E. Эллен

that's OK. I'm not attracted to visual representations of mathematical formulae

Mitch

I am somewhat sincerely disappointed by that.

Johan Larsson

what formula is it?

Mitch

@tchrist Is there a comprehensive study of the changes (or not) in assignment of gender to nouns from Latin to the romance languages?

@JohanLarsson It depends. There's more than one

user116848

Hi all

Mitch

2:36 PM

Hi!

@tchrist "Gender in the romance languages: an evolutionary approach" seems theoretical.

Robusto

@MattE.Эллен You've just never seen a hot one.

user116848

Chat is pretty funny today. The last bits I mean.

Robusto

It doesn't get a whole lot friendlier than "I love you." — Robusto 1 hour ago

Matt E. Эллен

@ABeautifulMind I have started trying to learn Greek with the Living Language series and a friend of mine has been pointing out glaring mistakes in their pronunciation guide. So I don't hold out a huge amount of hope

@Robusto I didn't want to hurt Mitch's feelings (do they have feelings?)

Robusto

@MattE.Эллен Are you asking me if Mitch has feelings or if Mitches have feelings?

Mitches: rhymes with bitches . . .

Matt E. Эллен

2:44 PM

@Robusto if visual representations of mathematical formulae have feelings :D

Robusto

@MattE.Эллен Oh, those. Well, of course they do.

Matt E. Эллен

oh, good.

if they can't be hurt, they can't be stopped!

Robusto

Venn diagrams are the Kama Sutra of mathematics.

2

Stack Exchange

Limerick Machine: A woman was up in a tree Dancing a quick waltz with a bee The bee dipped her low She went with th…

posted on February 23, 2015 by sgdi

A woman was up in a tree Dancing a quick waltz with a bee The bee dipped her low She went with the flow The dip was at quite some degree

Robusto

Or at least of set theory.

Mitch

2:49 PM

@MattE.Эллен Many do. sulks in corner with "e to the i pi"

At least we have each other.

@Robusto Oh Stop It! please go on

Robusto

I think that was pretty star-worthy. Tough room in here.

Mitch

We're busy searching for math pron on the web

Robusto

Ah, I see Kris was kind enough to give me a down-vote this morning. Must have made his day.

Mitch

3:11 PM

See... if downvoting results were timed with upvotes, you'd probably blame Kris anyway.

tchrist

3:37 PM

@Mitch Probably. But this is complicated. You have to look at each language. Consider also the strange case of Italian noun that switch gender when they switch number. Ovum was a 2nd decl neuter, so ova in the neuter plural. But Italian takes those nouns and makes them uovo masc sg but uova feminine plural. But feminine plurals should be -ae not just -a, which is feminine singular. It's all very confused.

Robusto

@Mitch I saw him comment on another answer roughly simultaneous with the downvote on my post. It is the simplest explanation.

tchrist

@Robusto data.stackexchange.com/english/query/256608/…

Mitch

@Robusto Oh, I don't doubt it. I'm just funning.

tchrist

Kris Up=2434 Down=4371

Clearly a Down's syndrome victim.

Mitch

@tchrist Right, it's complicated. But the majority of words maintain the corresponding gender, and I'm trying to see where the exceptions are. I expect French to be worse because of the loss of lots of endings. I also want to do the cognate comparison with Germanic and Slavic. Essentially with a coupe of unix one-liners on wordlists, I want to boil down all knowledge of gender in Indo-european into, let's say, under ten bullet points. I think it's doable.

Johan Larsson

3:44 PM

@tchrist Are you an upper?

Mitch

So I consider that conceptually done. Next task: Russian verb conjugations.

Robusto

I'm just going to pin that for a few hours.

Yes, I think it's that good.

Johan Larsson

haha

If you get stars now you will never know if they are pity stars.

Robusto

What's wrong with pity stars?

tchrist

@Mitch ES el fin/los fines, FR la fin/les fins, IT il fine/li fini

Have a nice day.

Johan Larsson

3:48 PM

@Robusto They are different.

Good morning!

^fail :)

Hey, I was close.

Off by 10 hours.

@tchrist data.stackexchange.com/english/query/277665/…

now to compare with the ROC to see how accurate each voter is.

Cerberus

3:51 PM

15

A: Which Romance languages have reflexes of nouns in the Latin nominative?

Apparently, many subjective and objective (cas régime) forms of words were still used in Middle French, at least into the late Middles Ages, if you go through the etymologies of French words. Here are some examples of words in modern French that are reflexes of the Latin nominative, from the Cent...

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch that's the bottom 100 downvoters by percent. misleading titles!

Cerberus

@tchrist In Latin, I believe finis can be feminine and masculine.

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен No, the first one is misleading, the bottom 100 upvoters.

Cerberus

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch why would someone make sucha confusing mess?

my dv/(dv+uv) = 0.256

Cerberus

3:54 PM

> finis m. (f. mostly ante- and post-classical and poetry, and only in singular, “rarely in classical prose,”; plural f. only in Varro)

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен easy peasy compared to some DB ER diagrams. hm... someone should make a database out of that dictionary

A Beautiful Mind

@MattE.Эллен Yes, the Living Language series seems to be very dumbed down compared to their previous offering. I recommend Teach Yourself, Routledge Colloquial or Assimil.

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен oops I thought you had posted the dictionary entry.

The Screening Room

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…