"Gut politics", is what others call it.

it makes more people tempted to try them. you cannot compare a drug like marijuana (which you can smoke once, and decide if you like it or not) with opiates, which if someone one day decides "hey, let me see what this does" and shoots up some heroin, that's it

you simply cannot compare the two. they're entirely different things.

of course you can get shit like cocaine at every street corner. you can't get heroin at every street corner. and that's a damn good thing.

I stick with my point that you have no evidence at all.

nor do you.

You are making the claim here, mister.

it hasn't been tried recently to legalize very dangerous drugs.

A teenager drinks an entire bottle of hard spirits and that’s it.

We have fairly tolerant drug laws here, and people do not use more drugs here than elsewhere.

Now what?

It's all gut, not science or evidence.

You can’t bring that dead teenager back to life by making teenage drinking illegal.

Yeah.

And, even if it did, it wouldn't be worth it, because the war on drugs has killed many, many, many thousands, or millions, and damages society in many other ways too.

It funnels tons of money from tax payers into the hands of drug gangs.

And terrorists, which are usually funded with drug money, like the Taliban, FARC, etc.

@Cerberus “Everybody” except for non-idiots or non-neurotypicals, or both.

Hardly.

So which category of non-everybody do you fall into?

If you don't use it too much, it's not that bad. Certainly a lot better than alcohol and cigarettes. Or fat. Or many other unhealthy things.

Hm.

@tchrist I don't know what you mean.

You don’t use it. Everybody there uses it. Reconcile.

I don't think I need to explain normal language use to you, of all people.

I drank about 5 glasses of alcohol today.

And I'm not proud of it, but they had good wine!

The addiction rate does vary from one drug to the next.

It does.

But making it illegal rarely has much of an effect on any drug, except if you are a police state and can find and kill all users.

And, even if this were not the case, the cost would be far too high.

@Cerberus There are a lot more accidental deaths from mixing prescription drugs and alcohol than there are of any illegal drug.

Sure.

I’m not arguing with you.

So I notice.

60% of the capacity of our criminal justice system is occupied with the war on drugs. That is far too much. Go and catch real criminals!

@GeorgePompidou A policy of discouragement is far better.

I think drugs are stupid. and I think people are even more stupid (especially Americans). so many Americans do what they're told on the television. all you need is a single company making a TV ad on how so and so drug is legal and good, and they'll do it.

1 = Most serious  6 = Least serious

HENNINGFIELD RATINGS

Substance   Withdrawal Reinforcemt Tolerance Dependnce Intoxictn
----------- ---------- ----------- --------- --------- ---------
Nicotine        3           4         2           1          5
Heroin          2           2         1           2          2
Cocaine         4           1         4           3          3
Alcohol         1           3         3           4          1
Caffeine        5           6         5           5          6

Note that 6 is least serious and 1 is most serious.

The most serious drugs are already legal.

@GeorgePompidou So you forbid ads. And do lots of other things to discourage drug use, things that actually help.

it's different in countries that have an education system that works, @Cerberus

Unrelated.

@GeorgePompidou You’re flailing.

we don't. we have fat idiots who do what their fat idiot neighbor does.

Please don’t ask a moderator to suggest dog-walking therapy.

huh?

@tchrist Heh I have seen those charts, but I always wonder. What doses do they compare, for example?

@GeorgePompidou We all do.

@Cerberus Source.

is angry

throws a fit

Here, take this pill.

> A central property of addiction is the user's control over the substance. With all drugs. including heroin, many are occasional users. The addictive property of the substance can be measured by how many users maintain a casual habit and how many are persistent, regular users. According to large Government surveys of alcohol users, only about 15 percent are regular, dependent drinkers. Among cocaine users, about 8 percent become dependent. For cigarettes, the percentage is reversed.

@Cerberus people who sell heroin are real criminals

Not really.

People are not puppets.

No, people who steal heroins are real criminals.

@Cerberus I think they are

That’s nice, dear.

they do exactly what they are told for the most part.

People have some responsibility.

Father state cannot do everything for you.

Besides, as I said, it doesn't work, and it costs society far too much.

@Cerberus Mamma mia, with words like that you start to sound like you live in Montana!

@Cerberus have you seen our military budget?

Flailing again.

shut up

@tchrist So 92% for ciggies? I find that hard to believe. I know more than a few social smokers.

@tchrist Porqué?

@GeorgePompidou Same problem, largely.

it definitely doesn't cost us much to lock up heroin dealers.

there aren't a lot of them.

Gut feeling instead of science guiding policy.

@Cerberus It’s in line with the normal figures given. I think it creeps up on them.

What is a “social” smoker, someone who only smokes around other people, not in private?

Yes, sort of.

makes a big fuss and stomps around, breaking everything

@tchrist Only on social occasions, like parties.

@GeorgePompidou You need contemplation! Or a pill!

@Cerberus Dog-walking. Fish-walking. Navel-gazing.

Had you taken drugs, you would not be stomping around so!

I did take drugs this morning. just not ones that ruin people.

you're both just completely bonkers.

That’s nice, dear.

@Cerberus Perhaps he took the wrong ones.

@GeorgePompidou Cancer kills people. Does that mean we should create some harsh law forbidding atheism, because our guts tell us it is God's punishment? You have to look at evidence and cause–effect.

If forbidding drugs doesn't work or is too harmful, then it is madness.

@Cerberus If petroleum is a drug. :)

there is no evidence because in modern times there has not been a civilized rational country that has allowed very dangerous drugs!

give me an example of what happens when you legalize heroin

show me some studies

There is just no evidence, period.

give me scientific cause effect whatever

exactly!

because it's too bonkers an idea to even try

No, you want to have this law that is extremely costly. You need to provide the evidence.

it's just utterly mental!

some of those I don't need to define

like evidence, civilized, and rational

define need

I think you are ignoring my point.

I have repeated myself enough here.

Apparently you do, since you are not using them in a civilized rational fashion.

here's the evidence supporting this "costly" law: there isn't widespread addiction to heroin.

@Cerberus You cannot reason against faith.

isn't that good enough for you?

It is not.

do you think it's worth the risk of that happening to save some money?

Still ignoring most of the stuff I have said.

because you have not proven that it will not happen if the law preventing sale and possession of heroin no longer exists

Good luck with proving that negative, dear.

It isn’t very sporting to demand it of others.

I do not need to prove that a harmful law is not effective if there is no evidence that the law is effective.

stop condescendingly saying "dear" at the end of your sentences.

Dear, I shall endeavour to do so.

The burden of proof is on him who wishes to have this harmful law.

well, I am glad that that isn't the case, in practice at least.

Dearies, stop being impolite to each other any more than is absolutely necessary!

But drugs are one of the three joys of life!

@GeorgePompidou European Commissioner Bolkestein has already proposed making all drugs legal. The trend is definitely going in that direction.

On the highest levels of government.

casts Protection from Flailing, 6.2831853" Radius

@GeorgePompidou And you are also ignoring my suggestion that discouraging drug use in other ways may be (far) more effective than forbidding it. There is a middle ground between illegal and advertisements on television.

is that even a real spell?

Dear me, I should think so!

Can't we all just getabong?

Haha.

casts Till Eulenspiegel’s Merry Pranks

I know, I'm unfair in arguing this way @Cerberus. you make many good points, and there are of course much better ways to discourage drug use. I still can't ignore my gut though, and I also cannot be sure that in a future where all drugs are legal, that some political/social tide will steer people toward drugs. you see, kids do everything that is cool these days. and with heroin legal, that may one day be cool.

Dear, did you just say “kids these days”?

@GeorgePompidou Heroin is legal?

Where??

Wherever Heros frolic, of course.

@GeorgePompidou Then let's agree that we should discourage drugs in various ways, the more so as a drug is more harmful to one's body and mind.

I also know people who were affected by really bad drugs and who are very close to me, and it makes me argue very irrationally, even though I may logically understand all of what you say.

You say “body and mind” like those are two different things.

Like Norway, where it is illegal to sell alcohol except in special state stores?

@tchrist Just to be sure.

body and mind and boobs.

@GeorgePompidou Right, I smelled something like that in the air.

We had this kid in my class.

He smoked pot every day, between classes.

Speaking of boobs, Trailer Park Boys: The Movie had a lot more tits than I was expecting.

Seeing as how none of the other movies or the show have any.

He rolled his joints in class and put them behind his ears.

We were 14 or so.

hey, I do that!

^.^

oh, not that young though.

@Cerberus Oh, like in Utah?

The drug really affected his mood, he never managed to concentrate enough to pass his tests and stuff. Eventually, he had to leave school.

Mood and concentration being separate things.

@tchrist Oh, I don't know. But it is a way to discourage alcohol use without making it illegal. Not saying I support it...

Stupid people do stupid things everywhere, except when they are illegal.

Then they do them even more everywhere.

Unless you are a police state.

If you put airport check lines at every street corner, it gets harder.

my best friend's mom has always been addicted to drugs. she got into heroin eventually, threw all of her life away. eventually, even if she got clean the drugs fucked her up so much she was still crazy. she got cancer a few years ago, and would never consent to any treatment for it because she was crazy, and eventually got back into drugs. she now lives on the streets and my best friend has to go look for her every so often to make sure she's "fine" by whatever definition.

If you kill those who violate the law on the spot, you will discourage more people.

more recently, his father died, who was providing all the financial support for taking care of his mom

I don’t know that having state stores for hooch does much to discourage it.

so at this point, not much this kid can do.

@GeorgePompidou That is of course horrible.

But illegality did not manage to prevent it...

@tchrist I'm not sure.

yeah, but I'm hoping, irrationally, that it will prevent some other kid's mom from doing the same.

OK.

I understand where you're coming from...

and I know it's irrational.

Hope was Pandora’s last vice to give the world.

and I'm sure if I did not observe this happening, I'd completely agree with you. because it makes sense.

I wonder how Susan is coming along in Italy.

I am beginning to become unhappy that answers with virtually zilcho original content, basically all copypasta extravaganza, get voteupped higher than solid original content.

@GeorgePompidou Perhaps they can find other ways of discouraging it.

@tchrist Oh, what is she doing there?

@Cerberus Visiting her son, IIRC.

all that said, I am going to visit my mom for winter break, and am going to buy some pot at the legal pot store in Seattle.

it's going to be the first time I ever buy pot legally. what an interesting thing it will be.

If you’re buying pot legally, you have too much money and not enough good earth.

I love these little +1’s I get all the day long.

I have lots of money, this is true.

good earth, I don't know what you mean.

Pot does that to you, dear.

Five or six today, I forget.

The émigrés are the surprising ones.

no, on the contrary. pot makes you lose money.

Sew up your pockets.

but I am not concerned about the money loss.

I do not concern myself with money. this is the plight of the plebeians.

Haha.

Or of the nouveau riche.

Or of the poor.

that's what I said.

😁