English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

02:00

We are not at war.

Jolenealaska

In a little Alaskan town that used to be my home, our power went out many times, sometimes for the better part of a day...Usually the cause was a pair of beavers that lived on the land of a friend of mine.

tchrist

@Cerberus That is simply untrue. There could be a massive earthquake, or a tidal wave 100 yards high, or Acts of Terrorism.

Which are different again.

Cerberus

@Jolenealaska That's cure, but...

tchrist

Also, a solar storm.

A solar storm would destroy your grid.

And it is legally an Act of God.

Cerberus

@tchrist Such things have never happened here in my lifetime.

Jolenealaska

02:01

She had a special permit from the state to shoot them on site.

tchrist

They very nearly occurred two years ago.

And they have happened in Canada within the last decade or so.

Cerberus

Look, I'm sure there are exceptions, what we call overmacht.

tchrist

Solar "superstorm" just missed Earth in 2012

We would still be picking up the pieces from that one.

Cerberus

But such things have never happened since I was born. So, in practice, it's always workmen. So we always get money when power goes out.

tchrist

And you cannot hold humans accountable for such Acts of God.

Nonsense.

You would not have been paid for that.

No one would have.

Well, maybe Munich Re would have paid somebody something, but then gone under.

7

A: What happen with my private room when my reputation goes less than 1000?

You haven't created a private room, only moderators can do that. You have likely created a gallery room that only allows specific users to talk. The room owners and the users with write access will stay the same after you lose your reputation, you simply won't be able to create another gallery c...

So you can create a room where only certain users can talk.

Not very nice, but whatever.

Things constantly happen that have never before happened during your own short lifetime. Constantly. Truly.

Like a civil aircraft full of hundreds of your countrymen shot out of the sky.

For which you have my most profound of sympathies.

But shit happens.

Unexpectedly.

And without precedent. Constantly.

A chat-room that has limited write-access is apparently called a Gallery in SE lingo.

Remember: “Bad things happen in the dark.”

5

A: How to change chat room access?

Your rooms must be publicly readable. Private rooms are only used by moderators for specific purposes. If you have 1000 reputation you can make your chat room publicly read-only by enabling the "gallery" setting in the access tab for that chat room.

10

A: How do I invite someone to chat or send a private message?

In this case, I would just leave a comment (or edit it directly if you can; editing to fix things is not discouraged). On this occasion, I have edited those links in. There is no private user-to-user messaging in either SO or chat (with a small caveat around moderation). Bad things happen in the...

Cerberus

02:16

@tchrist "Long transmission lines (many kilometers in length) are thus subject to damage by this effect. Notably, this chiefly includes operators in China, North America, and Australia, especially in more modern high-voltage, low-resistance lines. The European grid consists mainly of shorter transmission circuits, which are less vulnerable to damage."

@tchrist Why do you keep talking about that?

tchrist

Providing evidence.

And detail.

Cerberus

There was no solar storm. It's always workmen here, normally.

tchrist

There are no guarantees. That would be nuts.

Cerberus

No, you seem to be saying they shouldn't have compensated me.

tchrist

Do you know how many people were without power during our floods, and for how long?

Some for weeks.

You simply cannot possibly pay people for that sort of thing.

Cerberus

02:18

We do not have that here!

tchrist

Entire towns were virtually wiped out.

Yes, I know: you live in a zoo’s tended garden. That’s not very realistic.

Cerberus

This is reality.

tchrist

In the real world, shit happens.

Cerberus

No other scenario is.

Therefore, we are guaranteed power. Except in exceptional circumstances, which have never happened in my lifetime.

tchrist

In a tiny little manicured parkland, you do not have real-world concerns.

Cerberus

02:20

It's really simple. I don't understand why you would deny its truth or object to it morally, or whatever you seem to be doing.

tchrist

If the dikes were to massively fail, then you would have power failures, I am certain.

Cerberus

How is all that relevant for my power?

tchrist

What about hurricanes?

Cerberus

The dikes will not fail.

tchrist

God willing.

Cerberus

02:21

Hurricanes do not damage the power lines.

tchrist

Then they aren’t trying hard enough. :)

Cerberus

Besides, I don't think a flood would damage power lines either.

At least not for the higher floors of houses, the ones that are still dry.

tchrist

Tell that to the places in New York whose buried power lines were destroyed by the storm surge from the Atlantic during the hurricane.

Cerberus

How is that relevant to my power?

tchrist

Hurricane-force winds batter northern Europe. “A major Atlantic storm packing hurricane-force winds pummeled England, France, Belgium and the Netherlands early Monday, knocking out power to 220,000 homes in England and blocking roads and railways with fallen trees. At least nine people were killed.”

Cerberus

02:25

England has power lines above the ground.

Like France.

tchrist

Can you imagine if the power companies had to pay those 220,000 homes in England for the “inconvenience” of the power loss?

Cerberus

2 mins ago, by Cerberus

How is that relevant to my power?

tchrist

Things that are possible in a tiny goldfish-bowl world are not extensible to the real one.

Cerberus

Do I have to keep quoting that line every time?

I do not care what happens in England. I do not live there. It has nothing to do with my power company.

Whose grid is owned by the state btw.

tchrist

America is too big for your manicured solution. So, apparently, is England.

Cerberus

02:30

So??

tchrist

Apparently about a million Dutch citizens lost power in the western part of your country some 15 years ago.

So these things do happen, even there.

Cerberus

Did they? What was the cause? I do not remember that, I was too young.

tchrist

Wessel Bakker does not say what the cause was.

> The Netherlands flood-resistant infrastructure is built to withstand a 10,000-year flood, a flood so large and powerful it could only happen once in 10,000 years. By way of contrast, the levees built in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina are designed to withstand a 100-year storm.

That is incorrectly stated.

If you have infrastructure built to withstand a 10,000 year flood, it does not mean what that says.

It means that each year there is a 1‱ chance of that event occurring.

Nothing more.

These are not the same thing.

Cerberus

Of course.

It's a simplification.

> In some ways, comparing the American and Dutch grids isn’t quite fair. The Netherlands is about the size of a densely populated Maryland, whereas the U.S. is enormous with a widely distributed power grid.

tchrist

It also means you have a 25.2768259637260726‱ of it occurring during your prospective 75-year lifetime.

Cerberus

02:39

It's probably more difficult to protect less densely populated areas. That applies to any kind of man-made utility.

tchrist

People complain about us getting two “100-year floods” in 20 years.

They fail to understand these things.

Cerberus

However, one would think it would be possible to organize and provide the same protection for an American city locally, like New York or New Orleans.

tchrist

There is ~20% change of that occurring.

@Cerberus New Orleans definitely needs the 10k plan, not the century plan.

New York perhaps even more so because of the number of lives and the property affected. But it would be much more expensive.

Cerberus

At any rate, American cities should be rich enough to protect themselves. You don't need to protect the entire country all at once in one huge plan.

tchrist

I suppose if America stopped fighting wars and building bombs and bullets and training soldiers for a few decades, one or two cities might be safeguarded.

Cerberus

02:42

We, too, protect our cities better than our countryside.

The 10k probably applies to the countryside here.

@tchrist Even with all that, there should be enough money available!

Besides, don't you think that's just what they're planning to do for New York, at least?

tchrist

I have no data.

Cerberus

I once posted a map here.

Of the level of protection for different areas here.

tchrist

I do not see how a city or a state could ever do such a thing.

I mean, for reasons of money.

They just do not have that kind of budget.

Cerberus

It's not super expensive.

tchrist

Hm.

I’m afraid I couldn’t say, and wouldn’t know.

Cerberus

02:44

We have 17 million people to pay for the protection of about 200x300km.

New York alone has almost that number?

For a much smaller area.

You can do it!

tchrist

But you imagine that the same measures would work, for the same cost. That might be a figment.

I do not know what measures New York is contemplating.

I do know that New Orleans has not been adequately protected.

Cerberus

Sep 14 '13 at 21:19, by Cerberus

@tchrist Still not?

tchrist

Right.

Of course, people will tell you otherwise.

Cerberus

Hmm it appears only the most densely populated areas (de Randstad) are up to 10k.

But maybe cities have even higher numbers but aren't shown on the map.

tchrist

After Katrina, Gulf Coast Still Vulnerable

> "That 100-year standard is the national standard established by the government. We're public servants. If Congress tells us we're going to start building to a 500-year event, we will accommodate," Habshey said.

That’s a problem.

BTW, I looked into getting federal flood insurance, the only kind ever available here. Turns out it does not reimburse you for property losses “below grade”.

So you must store nothing whatsoever in your basement.

Or else be prepared to kiss it goodbye.

Just an asshole policy if you ask me.

Almost all my damage was below grade. I did have some above grade, but very much less.

Cerberus

02:52

Below grade means below ground level?

tchrist

Yes.

Cerberus

Hmm.

That sucks.

tchrist

How the hell are we supposed to have a tornado shelter above grade? That won’t really work.

Cerberus

But it's too late anyway...

tchrist

I know.

Cerberus

02:54

Put only cheap stuff in your cellar?

By the way, I've just found out something funny.

tchrist

I have no other place to store anything. None at all.

Cerberus

Well, in your rooms?

tchrist

I can tell don’t own a house. :)

What is funny?

Cerberus

My street was originally the dike that protected Amsterdam against the sea, in the Middle Ages. It has been within the city walls since the extension of ca. 1400, however. But it says here my street is still part of the official protections against flooding for the rest of the city centre, because it is still one or two metres higher than the rest.

tchrist

Man-high isn’t very protective.

Midget-high even less so. :)

Cerberus

02:57

@tchrist It's only one ring of protection out of many.

tchrist

That isn’t the sea, is it?

Cerberus

The bit in the upper left corner of the left map is.

tchrist

That seems very close, doesn’t it?

I should imagine a storm surge would drench you.

I advise against building fission reactors there. Consider Japan.

Hey, did you know that some Brits don’t voice the mid-vowel in fission the way they do in fusion? This was a surprise to me.

I had always heard both those with the "zh" version.

But fissile material doesn’t have a voiced sibilant there, so I guess I can see why.

It appears that fusion has contaminated fission by analogy.

Cerberus

Yes, it is very close.

@tchrist But the dikes there are 10k.

@tchrist You mean they don't voice the sibilant?

tchrist

@Cerberus Right!

Cerberus

03:06

I would not voice the ʃ in fission.

tchrist

> fission /ˈfɪʃən/, sb

Cerberus

That's what I would say.

tchrist

> fusion /ˈfjuːʒən/.

Cerberus

You would say /fiʒən/?

tchrist

Yes.

Cerberus

03:07

I see.

tchrist

It’s all I have ever heard.

Even from senior nuclear scientists.

Cerberus

Confession, session, mission...

tchrist

Be that as it may.

Cerberus

Interesting.

tchrist

I can only report what I have ever heard.

It has never, ever been homophonous with gone fishin’ in my experience.

Cerberus

03:08

Perhaps it is like how many Americans pronounce aluminium (which is like /əluːmɪnəm/), and often spell aluminum.

tchrist

Um, no.

No American pronounces it with the extra -i-.

/əljuːmɪnəm/ is rare here.

Cerberus

The bit in italics is not pronunciation, it is simply the word as quoted.

tchrist

But it does sometimes happen.

What doesn’t happen is /əluː'mɪniəm/

Cerberus

That's what I'm saying.

tchrist

The stress here is /ə'luːmɪnəm/

Even with a rounded u.

Which is odd, because it is usually BrE that has an earlier stress than AmE.

Controversy etc.

Cerberus

03:12

I could say either.

tchrist

You don’t really the :, because it isn’t phonemic.

If you used square brackets, then you might use it though.

Cerberus

> "Afgelopen week hebben wij gekeken hoeveel huishoudens hoelang zonder stroom hebben gezeten en kwamen we uit op een schatting van ruim twee miljoen", meldt de woordvoerder. Binnen enkele weken ontvangen bewoners de vergoeding automatisch op hun rekening.

Ruim zeventienduizend huishoudens in Nieuwegein zaten vorige week vrijdag uren zonder stroom. De storing bij Stedin werd veroorzaakt door blikseminslag in twee transformatorhuisjes.

Lightning struck two transformer stations, or whatever they're called.

tchrist

That is what they are called, yes.

Cerberus

17k people lost power for several hours.

tchrist

When was this?

Cerberus

03:15

(OK I just made that word up, or my subconscious picked it up somewhere.)

2012.

The power company calculated that they would have to compensate those people with € 2 million.

The money would be transferred to their accounts within a few weeks.

So lightning does not count as an excuse.

nuzakelijk.nl/ondernemen/2847593/…

tchrist

My God. Why the hell do they do such crazy things???

Cerberus

They should better protect their stations against lighting.

tchrist

That is impossible here. Utterly unthinkable.

We have squirrel issues, too.

Cerberus

It would be possible for a city, at least.

tchrist

Sometimes eagles.

Well, or vultures.

Cerberus

03:17

Maybe there is one thing you lack that would make it more expensive: soft ground.

tchrist

These are the mountains.

The bones of the planet are nigh.

And below the area that carried the glacial dirt, there is often nothing between you and the rock.

So for example, in Texas you don’t have basements because you would have to blast them.

This is why their damned water pipes freeze constantly.

Cerberus

Right.

tchrist

They can’t bury the piping far enough.

Cerberus

I guess all kinds of conduits are worse off above ground.

> De storingen op het gasnet van Stedin lagen in 2013 voor een huishouden op gemiddeld 40 seconden. Ook dat is een forse daling ten opzichte van 2012. Toen lag dat op gemiddeld 77 seconden.

tchrist

Plus the pipes are in the outer walls.

In places with basements, the pipes go to the center of the foundation before coming up, so are safe.

Cerberus

03:20

"Stedin's gas net had an average outage time of 40 seconds in 2013. That is a significant improvement over 2012, when it was 77 seconds."

Do you have gas outages?

I've never noticed any.

tchrist

Very very very rarely.

Cerberus

OK.

Where are your gas pipes?

tchrist

It is always due to some extraordinary thing, like a leak in one home causing it to shut down the block.

Cerberus

Can't they put the power lines wherever the gas pipes are?

tchrist

I don’t understand.

Only cities have gas.

Everyone has power.

Cerberus

03:22

Oh.

Everyone has gas here.

But cities, then.

tchrist

Wait, people in the country have gas????

Cerberus

All cables and pipes are normally at the same place here.

Yes, I believe everybody here has gas.

tchrist

Wow.

It’s like one big city.

Here people have propane tanks if they don’t live in the city and want gas.

Which of course explode spectacularly every time a fire sweeps through.

Cerberus

Ouch, really?

Still, we have gas leaks, which alone can blow up houses.

Turns out we have 8 million households connected to electricity, but only 7 million have gas.

tchrist

This happens everywhere. It is terrible.

Cerberus

03:27

So I think 99% will have electricity, but only about 87% gas.

tchrist

Gas is a city thing.

Cerberus

Some by choice, probably. One can do without gas.

tchrist

It could not be transmitted to the country.

Cerberus

It's not a city thing here.

tchrist

You are a minuscule place.

And you have nothing to dig up.

Cerberus

03:28

I was wrong.

> In Nederland is 98 procent van het vastgoed aangesloten op het aardgasnet.

tchrist

You are for most intents and purposes, a city.

Cerberus

"98% of properties are connected to the gas network."

tchrist

You just have some manicured greenbelts.

But you have no virgin forest, no terrain.

Cerberus

Hah, only about 5% of our area is built on.

tchrist

It’s really just a big garden.

Where are your virgin forests?

Cerberus

03:29

The rest is forests and agriculture.

tchrist

None are virgin.

Therefore, all is manicured.

Cerberus

25% forests, the rest agriculture.

tchrist

That is not old forest.

It is new forest.

Which does not count.

Cerberus

But the deer don't need gas, even after their manies and pedies.

Or how do you spell that?

tchrist

I have no idea what you mean.

Europe has less than 3% old-growth forest, most of which is in Poland and Russia.

conservationmaven.com/frontpage/…

Cerberus

03:33

Manicure and pedicure.

Abbreviated to mannies and peddies, or something.

Look how green! Can you see how small the built-up areas are, comparatively?

Can you spot Amsterdam?

tchrist

The place without trees.

Or greenery. Or life.

Cerberus

Haha.

The dark green bits are forests.

tchrist

@Cerberus So few. And so new.

Cerberus

03:48

I'm sure.

> According to a study by Metatech corporation, a storm with a strength comparable to that of 1921 would destroy more than 300 transformers and leave over 130 million people without power, with a cost totaling several trillion dollars.[34] A massive solar flare could knock out electric power for months.[35]
These predictions are contradicted by a NERC report that concludes that a geomagnetic storm would cause temporary grid instability but no widespread destruction of high-voltage transformers. The report points out that the widely quoted Quebec grid collapse was not caused by overheating t…

tchrist

Cerberus

> Metatech Corporation is a small company of highly-qualified scientists and engineers with broad experience in developing technically sound and innovative solutions to problems in all areas of electromagnetic environmental effects, including:
electromagnetic interference and compatibility, nuclear and lightning electromagnetic pulse, intentional electromagnetic interference (IEMI) assessments, high-altitude electromagnetic pulse (HEMP) assessments, and consulting services for the design and testing of critical infrastructure facilities from HEMP and IEMI.

tchrist

The dark green is not merely forest, but National Forest, which is something else.

Cerberus

@tchrist This is the company that wrote the alarming report about huge damage and trillions of dollars of damages. They happen to protect you against such events, for a fee.

tchrist

Notice how much of Colorado is National Forest.

Cerberus

03:51

That's nice.

tchrist

@Cerberus Scary.

21% of Colorado is National Forest, almost all of it original virgin old-growth ancient forests from before Europeans came here.

The Word for World Is Forest

The Word for World Is Forest is a science fiction novel by Ursula K. Le Guin, published in 1976 and based on her 1972 novella which was nominated for a Nebula Award. It is part of Le Guin's Hainish Cycle. == Setting == Several centuries in the future, humans from Earth have established a logging colony and military base named "New Tahiti" on Athshe, a tree-covered planet whose small, green-furred, big-eyed inhabitants have formed a culture centered on lucid dreaming. Terran greed spirals around native innocence and wisdom, turning the ancient society upside down. Humans have learned interstellar...

I always thought that was a beautiful idea.

Cerberus

"We of Voodoo Protections, Inc. have issued a report predicting one billion people could die from evil voodoo. To change the subject completely, we happen to sell voodoo protection for €100/person."

tchrist

@Cerberus Ah, but is it guaranteed?

Cerberus

Nope!

tchrist

Should be or double your money back.

Cerberus

03:54

You can replace voodoo with terrorism or computer viruses.

@tchrist No such company ever offers compensation when they fail!

tchrist

I thought your power company did.

Cerberus

Why do you they they do that?

tchrist

Lightning is a strange thing, stranger than we ever knew. I’ve mentioned this before: it results in antimatter.

It isn’t all electrons. There are positrons involved. They do not get along well with electrons, however.

Cerberus

The only reason they pay us compensation (not offer) is because the law tells them to.

tchrist

Nuclear explosion is bad enough, but matter–antimatter annihilation is serious business.

Cerberus

03:58

Star Trek has shown us so.

tchrist

Anywhere that cares about power guarantees has its own generators. Like hospitals.

Nothing else scales.

Cerberus

Sure.

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