English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Jasper Loy

12:21 AM

!!mustache kitfox

Jarvis the Bot

Cerberus

12:32 AM

@tchrist Haha yes!

One of my favourite scenes of all time.

Robusto

@Cerberus Yes, Münster.

Jasper Loy

Someone tell a story. It's too quiet in here.

!!wiki rod stewart

Roderick David "Rod" Stewart, CBE (born 10 January 1945) is a British rock singer-songwriter. Born and raised in London, he is of Scottish and English ancestry. Stewart is one of the best-selling music artists of all time, having sold over 100 million records worldwide. He has had six consecutive number one albums in the UK, and his tally of 62 UK hit singles include 31 that reached the top 10, six of which gained the number one position. He has had 16 top ten singles in the US, with four reaching number one on the Billboard Hot 100. In 2007, he received a CBE for services to music. With hi...

Cerberus

12:38 AM

@Robusto Why Münster?

Robusto

@Cerberus Sort of rhymes with Minister. Certainly with minster, as in Westminster.

Cerberus

Ah, those are related?

I can't think of a possible root...

Robusto

-minster in Westminster is from monastery.

Cerberus

Ahh of course!

D'oh.

That would make sense for Münster as well.

Robusto

Yup.

Cucullus non facit monachum.

Cerberus

12:41 AM

> μον-ασμός, ὁ, solitary life, solitude, Eust.636.36.

-asmos is probably just an abstract suffix like -ismos.

@Robusto Ita est!

Robusto

minster (n.) Old English mynster "the church of a monastery" (8c.), from Late Latin monasterium (see monastery). Compare Old French moustier, French moûtier, Old Irish manister. (Etymonline)

Cerberus

Yes, Vicipaedia told me Münster was also from monasterion.

Robusto

Eminently sensible.

Jasper Loy

Vicipaedia? LOL

Cerberus

-terios is probably a fairly neutral adjectival suffix.

Latin Wikipedia

The Latin Wikipedia (Latin: Vicipaedia Latina) is the Latin language edition of Wikipedia. The number of articles reached 100,000 on 18 December 2013. As of July 2014, it has about 109,000 articles. While all primary content is in Latin, in discussions modern languages such as English, Italian, French, German or Spanish are often used, since many users (usores) find this easier. Professional Latinists have observed a gradual improvement in the encyclopedia: according to Robert Gurval, chairman of the UCLA classics department, "the articles that are good are in fact very good," even though some...

Jasper Loy

12:47 AM

Have you ever seen someone (male or female) so beautiful that you feel you are in heaven? I have, once or twice.

Cerberus

Sorry, nope.

It's safer to stand on the ground with two feet...

Jasper Loy

Sometimes, when I walk in my favourite shopping mall, I feel I am in heaven too.

Cerberus

Good for you, I guess.

Jasper Loy

Yes, I hope to go to heaven soon.

!!youtube tears in heaven

1:16 AM

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Is that your cat?

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@JasperLoy Yes

Jasper Loy

►

This is the nicest orchestral piece I ever heard.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 So you survived the techno, lol.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@JasperLoy Barely. Geezis.

Jasper Loy

1:34 AM

►

Carreras at his peak.

I am going to sleep.

Yoichi Oishi

@Medica @AndrewLeach @KitFox @MattЭллен @RegDwigнt @Waiwai933 @nohat @simchona. As some (or most) of you are aware of, I had a heated discussion with Medica about the treatment of my question asking the meaning of “so” in the line of “I would have so answer yes” in Jeffery Archer’s “The Prodigal Daughter,”

which was once put to “On Hold” and Reopened, in the chat on EL&U Mod Room. I would like to apologize for using uncivil word, “paranoid,” “monomaniac,” and “Gestapo” in my question addressing to her.

5

Mitch

1:53 AM

@JasperLoy And then you talk to them and that feeling goes away?

Cerberus

@YoichiOishi That is a great apology!

Yoichi Oishi

@Cerberus. Thank you. I have very few memory that I wrote an apology letter in my life both personally and on business, much more in English. So I don't know how to write it neatly.

Cerberus

@YoichiOishi It sounds clear and sincere.

So do you know yet who reopened your question? Did you do it, by accident?

medica

2:17 AM

@YoichiOishi - thank you. I understand that you had no intention of being the re-opener of your question, but had only intended to vote to re-open like any other user. That you didn't know your vote was binding is completely understandable.

I know it was heated, and for that I also apologize. I hope you understand that people can have questions, though, without ill intentions.

Cerberus

Glad that this is now resolved!

We can all be happy and dance!

medica

(presses 'like' button)

Yoichi Oishi

@Cerberus. Yes. I did it. Though it's now the old story. The following is the process I explained Chris Jaeger of Stock Exchange:

I revisited my question few days after posting, and had an ‘incidental look’ at the [mod / share / delete/ flag] column. I think there was [reopen] button too.

As the owner of the question
At the instance I pushed [reopen] button as the owner of the question
the word [on hold] disappeared. I think I got 2 or 3 up-votes offsetting 1 down-vote that appeared immediate after I posted the question. So I thought there were 5 reopen votes including that of mine.

@Medica. Thank you for your permission and understanding of the background story.

Cerberus

2:33 AM

@YoichiOishi Right, this is what I suspected. Thanks for clearing that up.

medica

My pleasure, @YoichiOishi. It was completely understandable. My major regrets are that I was impatient with you, and that I didn't agree with @Cerberus when he pointed out how this might have happened.

Yoichi Oishi

Cont. And also thank for your elaborate answer and comments on my latest question on the Jeffery Archer'ssame book.

Cerberus

@medica Happens to the best.

medica

@YoichiOishi Again, my pleasure.

@Cerberus thank you for your kindness. :)

Cerberus

Haha.

user116848

2:35 AM

Hi! folks.

medica

@Arrowfar - hello!

user116848

@medica So how do you know when to come here? Or you just come here on your whim :)

medica

I got a notice of a message for me in chat.

user116848

Oh, that.

medica

Sure.

user116848

2:38 AM

@medica Do you get pings in email or how?

user116848

I mean you only see your pings when you visit ELU?

medica

No, I got a red 1 on the main page.

an icon that I had a comment. When I opened it, it said that I had a message from Yoichi Oishi.

in chat. All comments originating anywhere on this site that are preceded with @medica, I will be notified.

user116848

@medica So what if you don't visit ELU for some time. But I notice some people responds quickly and come out of the blue if you ping them. So do they get a ping in their email or something?

medica

Well, if their chat window is still open, they'll hear the ping. Otherwise it's an icon (?) notification.

user116848

I see

medica

2:42 AM

@Arrowfar Have you ever watched Person of Interest?

user116848

@medica Yeah I love that show. Do you watch it? I love Jim Caviezel. Very handsome too :)

medica

I've never seen it, but I'm thinking about trying it. I have a hard time finding good shows on TV. so I appreciate the feedback.

Yes, Jim Caviezel is very easy on the eyes.:)

user116848

I am addicted to Person of Interest. I still have all three season that I watch from time to time. Definitely try it. You would love it.

medica

Thanks. I will.

user116848

I think it is better than Game of Thrones. Too much nudity there.

medica

2:45 AM

Agree 100%. And, with that, I'm off. Bye. :)

user116848

Bye

user116848

@medica So do you still practice your profession or you are retired?

skullpatrol

5:03 AM

!!wiki xenophobic

Jarvis the Bot

Xenophobia

Xenophobia is the unreasoned fear of that which is perceived to be foreign or strange. It comes from the Greek words ξένος (xenos), meaning "strange," "foreigner," and φόβος (phobos), meaning "fear." Xenophobia can manifest itself in many ways involving the relations and perceptions of an ingroup towards an outgroup, including a fear of losing identity, suspicion of its activities, aggression, and desire to eliminate its presence to secure a presumed purity. Xenophobia can also be exhibited in the form of an "uncritical exaltation of another culture" in which a culture is ascribed "an unrea...

Andrew Leach

6:21 AM

@Robusto Leg up: An act of helping someone to mount a horse or high object; (fig.) an act of helping someone or something to improve their situation. You form a sort of stirrup with the hands into which the other person steps. The greasy pole: Used to refer to the difficult route to the top of a profession. To be given a leg up the greasy pole would appear to be given especially favourable -- possibly unfairly favourable -- treatment to promotion. [Both definitions ODO, not mine]

Leg up does appear to mean something slightly different in US English. Related, but difficult to use with greasy pole.

skullpatrol

Do they have "pole dancing" in the UK @Andrew Leach?

Andrew Leach

6:39 AM

Yes. But greasy pole isn't used to refer to that. Although I suppose there might be a pecking order among pole-dancers.

Zoe

Hello~

Gonna run down to buy some brunch. BRB!

Jasper Loy

@Mitch They are usually passers-by whom I don't talk to.

Robusto

9:04 AM

@AndrewLeach I thought it might be some sort of rhyming slang, because the noun was not stated, and I was trying to figure out what the rhyme would be.

Cerberus

Morning.

You're up early.

Matt Эллен

So are you!

RegDwigнt

Nah, he hasn't been to bed yet.

Matt Эллен

oh!

@Cerberus you're up late

Cerberus

@MattЭллен In fact, I am up early!

For once.

Matt Эллен

9:09 AM

0_0

Cerberus

My err friend-person had to get up early.

So I had to make breakfast.

Matt Эллен

always the problem with friend-persons

RegDwigнt

Stuff and nonsense. You simply forgot to sleep, and now you're forgetting you haven't slept.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен I know!!

@RegDwigнt Haha it might be true. I might be hallucinating.

But I shall jump back into bed soon.

Robusto

@Cerberus Cats woke me up. They're like alarm clocks.

Cerberus

9:10 AM

Set them later.

RegDwigнt

Yeah foh real you're hallucinating alright. Clearly dogs can't be friends with persons!

Cerberus

It is 5 am for you?

Robusto

Yes.

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt Hey, we're man's best friends.

Robusto

Well, 5:10.

Cerberus

9:11 AM

Look at our dog eyes!

Andrew Leach

@Robusto And you love us so much that you come here this early :-)

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus I see dollar signs.

Cerberus

@Robusto Freaky. That's a difference of 6.01 hours.

@RegDwigнt But why!

I don't have any dollars.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt Hey, he did say he was Dutch.

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus Multiply it with 1523 and it's OVER 9000.

Cerberus

9:12 AM

I have a handful of euro's, two bitcoins, and some scant stocks that are probably in pounds.

@RegDwigнt So is 5.59.

RegDwigнt

Oh right. I will give you another (used) sock for the two bitcoins, I think that's the going rate.

Robusto

@Cerberus And here I thought you got into classical scholarship for the money.

Matt Эллен

"Hello everyone, which one is correct?" they're both correct, obv.

RegDwigнt

0

Q: Hello everyone,which one is correct?

please suggest me which one is correct and any other suggestion to make it a better sentence. 1. We have noted your below email and we are not holding below booking any longer. 2. We have noted your below email and are not holding below booking any longer. Thanks.

grammar

Matt Эллен

janx

RegDwigнt

9:14 AM

I swear I read that exact example sentence the other day.

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt Umm it had better be a sock that was used by the Queen of Germany, then!

RegDwigнt

0

Q: Help me fix this!

I always have a confusion which form to use and which is right to use. Like, We have noted your below email and we are not holding below booking any longer. We have noted your below email and are not holding below booking any longer. Could you please suggest me which one is correct and any ot...

grammar ellipsis

Cerberus

Or, better, the Empress!

@Robusto I know, right??

Andrew Leach

@RegDwigнt Yes. This is the third time for that question.

Cerberus

I actually heard that, in England, people who have studied classics often end up high on various career ladders.

RegDwigнt

9:15 AM

See, everyone always closing as off-topic, me always going the extra nine yards to find a dupe. And then people tell me that I am not nice!

Cerberus

Aww.

Matt Эллен

!!urban nice

Jarvis the Bot

@MattЭллен nice Used as a filler during a pause in conversation. Doesn't necessarily mean something complimentary.

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt You're often nicer than Tom (he knows). If that is any consolation.

@JarvistheBot Nice one!

Matt Эллен

@RegDwigнt you're not not necessarily complimentary

RegDwigнt

9:16 AM

@MattЭллен yeah look up awful next.

Matt Эллен

!!urban awful

Jarvis the Bot

@MattЭллен [awful](http://awful.urbanup.com/268362) 1. Extremely bad or unpleasant; terrible
2. See [\[sega\]](http://urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sega)

Cerberus

Or awfully.

@RegDwigнt Oooh.

Matt Эллен

@RegDwigнt maybe they're just pointing out that you're not a French city

Cerberus

Hah.

Hey, if he's always closing the city...

Matt Эллен

9:19 AM

closing the city?

Robusto

But bad is the new good. So awful must mean extremely good.

Cerberus

He closes things nice.

Here I was thinking bad was the new brown.

Matt Эллен

while replying to an email i wanted to tell him that to mark his future emails to other emails that i have marked.thanks — Jeena 4 hours ago

Cerberus

Umm what?

Matt Эллен

what?

yeah

RegDwigнt

9:21 AM

@Robusto if "full of awe" does not directly translate to "extremely good", then nothing does.

Cerberus

People who cannot produce comprehensible language I suspect cannot produce coherent thoughts either.

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus while replying to an email she wanted to tell him that to mark his future emails to other emails that she has marked.

Matt Эллен

!!define awe

Jarvis the Bot

@MattЭллен awe A feeling of fear and reverence.

Robusto

Well, to be fair, it says nothing about full of "awe"; just full of "aw" . . .

Cerberus

9:22 AM

If you will forgive me this convoluted construction.

Robusto

Also, just "ful" of "aw" . . .

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt Aahhh stop it! I was actually trying to parse that before I realised what you were doing to me.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto it's archaic. Blame Richard the Somethingth.

Robusto

I think it describes most people's reaction to YouTube kitten videos: "ful" of "aw"!

RegDwigнt

lol your rite

Cerberus

9:24 AM

Aww.

Robusto

Maybe someone should give Yoichi the key to the mod room.

Cerberus

Or....maybe not.

Matt Эллен

Yoichi has the key

Robusto

Are you going to forego the normal hazing period for him?

Matt Эллен

I think he's been hazed already

Cerberus

9:25 AM

That would be...inequitable.

By our pro hazer.

RegDwigнt

Key is such a stupid word. Key. Key. Key. Makes you sound like a retarded seagull high on seaweed.

Cerberus

She was quick to the task.

Then what word do you like?

Robusto

@Cerberus Bot fly, perhaps.

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus I will tell you for three thousand bitcoins.

Cerberus

Bot fly?

RegDwigнt

9:27 AM

Bot fly lick a banana.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt Schlüssel sounds like diarrhea.

Matt Эллен

!!youtube remove bot fly from eye

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt That's more than a million eurietjes.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto like?

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Ew!

Matt Эллен

9:27 AM

ok. I won't do that again

Robusto

@RegDwigнt Aye.

RegDwigнt

@MattЭллен I didn't even seen it.

Cerberus

By the way, what are the silliest abbreviations for "euro" in German?

Matt Эллен

@RegDwigнt don't look. it won't improve things

RegDwigнt

@Robusto make sure not to confuse the Kloschüssel with the Kloschlüssel.

Cerberus

9:28 AM

Or, abbreviations—diminutives, pet names.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt Na ja, ich muss jetz zum Klo. Bis spãter.

RegDwigнt

Aufs Klo.

Viel Spaß.

Zum Klo sounds like you want to queue up to buy a cricket ticket there.

Then again what do I know about American Klos.

Cerberus

Ew.

Johan Larsson

9:41 AM

Rob what is your js framework of choice? I watched an Angular tutorial yesterday it looked nice.

Robusto

10:01 AM

@JohanLarsson Angular is the JavaScript framework for people who don't want to learn JavaScript. It is a back-end developer's front-end tool.

RegDwigнt

So now instead of learning JavaScript, they have to learn Angular. Brilliant.

Matt Эллен

spectangular

Johan Larsson

@Robusto So you are a js-only purist? (not judging)

RegDwigнt

Are you not? (judging)

Johan Larsson

Judging I am not.

Robusto

10:15 AM

@JohanLarsson I use plain JavaScript plus jQuery where appropriate. I'll tell you more later, but I have to commute now.

Johan Larsson

@Matt playing a little with contracts now, I see bugs here. Can be my machine though.

Matt Эллен

soon c# teams will need legal teams too!

Johan Larsson

how do you mean?

Cerberus

Contracts?

Matt Эллен

@JohanLarsson because of all the contracts

skullpatrol

10:27 AM

A legal team is a team of lawyers

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus software development jagron

> Code contracts provide a way to specify preconditions, postconditions, and object invariants in your code. Preconditions are requirements that must be met when entering a method or property. Postconditions describe expectations at the time the method or property code exits. Object invariants describe the expected state for a class that is in a good state.

from here

Cerberus

Ah OK, I expected something like that.

Is the main site down?

Matt Эллен

not for me

Jasper Loy

10:46 AM

@MattЭллен Did you see how Yoichi spelled your name?

Matt Эллен

Yes

Ice Girl

@JasperLoy Sorry for you

Jasper Loy

What was that about? She came in and left after saying a mysterious line.

Robusto

@JohanLarsson I write jQuery plugins that act as view renderers and in-page controllers. I feed them data from a model, which comes from the back end (not something I create artificially on the front end) as JSON. The whole idea that you can always neatly separate model, view, and controller is hogwash. Explain to me how Angular, which embeds control statements in the markup, does not violate the "separation" proponents of MVC and MV* frameworks are in such a lather to endorse?

Matt Эллен

@JasperLoy no idea

Cerberus

10:54 AM

The site loads very, very slowly in FF, for some reason.

Jasper Loy

I have been feeling very tired these few days, thinking too much.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus you've probably got interference on the line

works fine for me in FF

Cerberus

How odd!

Or some weird CDN.

It also loads slowly in Chrome.

Oh!

Jasper Loy

@Cerberus They are intercepting your internet after you dropped the dynamite that day.

Cerberus

Now it loads fine.

@JasperLoy Ugh, again??

Robusto

10:55 AM

@Johan: Framework enthusiasts claim that not using a framework allows front-end code to be sloppy and fall into "spaghetti"; I say you can write even worse spaghetti code with a framework, and if you know how to write reusable, generalized, clean code, you are way better off.

Cerberus

Robusto started about dynamite...

Jasper Loy

I have a feeling that simchona will not return to the site...

Cerberus

I don't know, when was she last active?

Robusto

And this is a problem because . . . ?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus some words might have been ommitted

Jasper Loy

10:56 AM

@Robusto No problem at all.

Cerberus

Omitted from where?

Jasper Loy

@Cerberus 2 months ago.

Cerberus

Oo.

That was one word too many, not too few.

Matt Эллен

:D

Cerberus

For a change.

Jasper Loy

10:57 AM

@MattЭллен Maybe she was referring to my madness.

Cerberus

I got only 4 hours of sleep...

Bai.

Going to sleep some more now!

Matt Эллен

@JasperLoy maybe

@Cerberus snooze well

Jasper Loy

@Cerberus See you in your dreams.

Cerberus

Thank you!

poof

Robusto

@JohanLarsson: Case in point, I just wrote my own jQuery plugin that renders tables of periodic data with a graphical, proportional navigator and floating header columns plus arbitrary fixed columns on the left. This would have been impossible in Angular. You'd have gotten something that was boxy and generic: a Honda Pilot instead of a Tesla roadster.

Jasper Loy

11:02 AM

It would be nice if SE lets you choose how the site looks by selecting a theme, like in gmail.

Matt Эллен

11:14 AM

0

Q: When will other sites follow Stack Overflow Portuguese

The first site using internationalization, Stack Overflow Portuguese, is now online for over 7 months. What are the plans for other sites like this waiting to be launched at Area51? Will this be happening soon?

support languages beta-sites internationalization

EL&U in Portugese, anyone?

Robusto

room topic changed to English Language & Usage: 100% talc free (63.185% in metric) (no tags)

Robusto

11:59 AM

@Cerberus Lies! I am no bomb-throwing anarchist! throws bomb

Note to the NSA: the above is a joke. I am neither anarchist nor bomb thrower.

Well, unless you count f-bombs. Fuck.

Matt Эллен

I count f-bombs

it's a hobby

Robusto

I knew it.

@Matt: Do you have a specific pub you frequent, or do you spread your custom among several?

Matt Эллен

I go to several. There is one I go to most frequently, but that's a coincidence of where Friday Night Magic (Magic: The Gathering) happens.

Robusto

Does that happen in the common room or the snug?

Matt Эллен

:D in the function room

Robusto

12:07 PM

function magicTheGathering([arguments]) {
    drink();
    play();
    laugh();
    argue(arguments);
}

Matt Эллен

many arguments, yes!

Robusto

And yet you have to supply your own arguments. They are not provided.

Johan Larsson

@Robusto The control in markup is smelly yes. (I don't know any web at all though)

Robusto

@JohanLarsson What some people refuse to acknowledge is that client-side development is its own thing. It is as different from back-end coding as being a goalkeeper is from, say, being a striker. Or vice-versa.

Johan Larsson

@Robusto One can say that you write your own framework then? I don't love frameworks either. As Reg pointed out learning them takes time. A nice framework is still nice though. I don't know enough to have an opinion about Angular hence the question.

The idea of binding looked nice though, I come from a wpf background.

Robusto

12:15 PM

@JohanLarsson Angular is what people call an "opinionated" framework. That is, it has its own methodology, which means you have to learn its practices and idiosyncrasies before you can write even a single line of code. The abstraction layer hides all the important things you need to understand about front-end coding, because, like all abstraction layers, Angular leaks.

Johan Larsson

Have you used wpf?

Robusto

As for the binding, try the two-way declarative bindings in Angular on a couple thousand page elements, then see what you think of the performance.

@JohanLarsson Not recently.

Johan Larsson

I think MS got a lot right with wpf. Have not used many other things so can't compare much.

The main thing they got wrong is perhaps that they aimed for xaml to be generated by Blend and other designer programs making it verbose & ugly.

Don't think many draw their UIs in the wild.

Robusto

The table plugin I mentioned above rerenders complicated tables in < 10 milliseconds. It does that by recompositing the entire markup for the table by the fastest means I know how, and since all events are delegated to the original table container, none need to be removed or added. Clean.

Compare that with the laborious notion of event chains triggering rerenders for every cell up the chain, which in turn trigger other events, and so on.

Fie upon it! Fie!

Johan Larsson

!!define fie

Jarvis the Bot

12:21 PM

@JohanLarsson fie (archaic) Used to express distaste, disgust, or outrage.

Matt Эллен

it's an interjection

Johan Larsson

!!define interjection

Jarvis the Bot

@JohanLarsson interjection (grammar) An exclamation or filled pause; a word or phrase with no particular grammatical relation to a sentence, often an expression of emotion.

Robusto

If you simply must use a framework, I would recommend BackBone (with Marionette add-on).

It is the least opinionated. But you will have to understand JavaScript and jQuery anyway, as well as how to use Underscore and its micro-templating system.

Johan Larsson

I'm just wasting life watching tutorials, the only immediate need I have for web skills is the chat music scraper

The other reason is that there is a bunch of job opportunities in web

Robusto

12:28 PM

@JohanLarsson: Here's another performance factor. In our last sprint, two other front-end developers had to use frameworks for what they were doing; I wrote my own from plugins. I was the only one who completed his project, even though it was far more complicated. I even completed its functionality for the next sprint by the end of the first sprint, and there were only three defects—which I fixed in minutes once I became aware of them.

Johan Larsson

But for career I think learning F# is probably better. Have a feeling that the few F# jobs there are out there are great.

Robusto

@JohanLarsson That will not change. If anything, it will only increase.

Johan Larsson

> Internet is just a fad — Ines Uusman (wrongly)

Robusto

Like automobiles were a fad.

Johan Larsson

@Robusto They say that a good dev can be a factor 100 better than a bad one. What do you think the ratio is in the example?

tchrist

12:40 PM

@JohanLarsson That we good ones are underpaid.

Robusto

@JohanLarsson It would be immodest of me to suppose.

Johan Larsson

Jul 14 at 23:53, by Robusto

I feel godlike.

@Robusto What changed?

tchrist

100:1 is misleading.

There is no number of bad programmers who add up to a good one.

Robusto

@JohanLarsson I feel godlike when I write good code. But I don't judge my fellow coders, unless they write shitty code that I have to fix.

Johan Larsson

@tchrist In a way, I can see a point in a very flat pay structure.

tchrist

12:42 PM

Communist.

Robusto

@tchrist It is sufficient for me that discriminating employers with interesting projects can't get enough of what I do. The rest can go hang.

Johan Larsson

Here goes why: Dev A is mr 100, he will be motivated and great without huge €. Dev B is le crap he will be bitter and pollute the workspace if he gets €10 < A.

tchrist

Rule 1: Fire the idiots.

Johan Larsson

In short I think the benefit from rewarding A can be smaller than pissing B off

tchrist

No.

Fire the idiot.

I realize this is illegal in Euroland.

Johan Larsson

12:44 PM

@tchrist Yeah, that is how to solve the problem, try to hire As.

tchrist

Fire them anyway.

Robusto

@JohanLarsson Then you are putting the company in hostage to substandard workers.

tchrist

Bad programmers write bad code no matter what.

Matt Эллен

@tchrist it is possible. eventually. employers have to send people on training and such, to show that they've tried to solve the problem. Also, it doesn't help that managers can't tell a good dev from a bad one

tchrist

So fire them.

Not for love nor money shall they ever write acceptable code. Fire them.

Robusto

12:45 PM

@MattЭллен That is the real problem. People who don't understand programming can't be counted on to know which programmers are good and which are not.

5

Jasper Loy

Instead of fire them, fire them up.

Johan Larsson

@Robusto star true

Robusto

@JasperLoy A bad programming working harder only makes more problems, not more solutions.

A friend of mine, a programmer who was in the army, talked about which temperament made the best officer (i.e., manager). There were four choices, in order of preference: 1. Smart and active, 2. Smart and inactive, 3. Dumb and inactive, 4. Dumb and active.

Johan Larsson

@tchrist If you can't fire/replace do you agree with the concept of flat pay?

tchrist

No.

It is insulting.

Robusto

12:48 PM

@JohanLarsson I sure don't. That is adding injustice to inefficiency.

What it basically says is, we have a system that doesn't work, therefore we shouldn't reward the parts of it that aren't broken.

Johan Larsson

I'm not saying it is fair, just a risk : reward thing

Robusto

It only ensures that you cannot keep the good parts of your system. It enforces mediocrity.

Johan Larsson

It is the industry standard.

tchrist

Bullshit.

Robusto

Where would you seek gold: where there are proven veins of gold, or where none has been found?

tchrist

12:51 PM

Q: How many tse-tse flies do you need to attach to a 777 for them to be able to fly it from New York to Los Angeles without using the jet’s engines?

A: You can’t get there from here.

> There is unrest in the forest
There is trouble with the trees
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas

The trouble with the maples
(And they're quite convinced they're right)
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade

There is trouble in the forest
And the creatures all have fled
As the maples scream 'Oppression!'

Johan Larsson

recruitment and wage development are two separate issues imo.

Robusto

The old saying for good managers is true: if you find someone better than yourself hire him; if necessary, pay him more than you pay yourself.

Johan Larsson

In a perfect world yes. Do you see that in practice much?

Drinking coffee and spitting buzzwords pays more than skill ime.

Jasper Loy

It only takes an asshole to be a boss.

Johan Larsson

Ass affinity can help :) (brown nosing)

skullpatrol