English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

@Cerberus I like the idea. Only, I wish that rather than a separate device, there would be some way to pair my existing cell phone with my cordless landline base, so that I could add new phones by re-purposing old android handsets.

Cerberus

2:24 PM

Ahh the classic version allows you to add a third destination after you've added two. So that works. Odd that it didn't show up the first time.

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Hmm, yes.

Or that I could optionally connect via landlines as desired.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

yeah, exactly

KitFox

Since my reception in my new house will be crappy.

Matt Эллен

Oxford to Brighton via Reading

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Or you could just use your mobile to call through any number, including landlines and different mobile plans. Or all providers could simply offer "connectivity" through all means available at a fair price, so your phone would automatically connect to your landline wirelessly, or 3G, or whatever is available.

KitFox

2:26 PM

Sweet. Beach trip!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

otherwise, the "landline" android phones are still a good idea, for anyone who uses a smartphone in their house for everything. Like, I use mine for playing music on the stereo. But it means that the kids can't play music, because they don't have phones.

KitFox

Right. We were going to give our old phones to our kids for that purpose.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Yes! At last the C option also showed up for me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox yeah. Now imagine if those phones could make calls too.

KitFox

No. Damn. Maybe if that were a feature I could turn on and off.

Matt Эллен

2:28 PM

@KitFox oh, if you want the beach...

Oxford to Polzeath via Plymouth

south east coast is all pebble beaches.

KitFox

But that will take all weekend!

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The only thing is that smartphone batteries are always low.

Matt Эллен

South west coast has the best beaches

@KitFox Yeah, it will. But I guess that means we'll have to take Friday and Monday off

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus They last a surprisingly long time if they don't need to connect to the cell network.

KitFox

@MattЭллен Darn. Well, if it must be done, it must be done.

Cerberus

2:30 PM

@MattЭллен Ahh wait, I know: it doesn't allow via points when you're using public transport!

c x

nah the new gmap is fine, requires a bit of use

the only thing form Google I wouldn't use now is their Chromebook

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, but I talking about a scenario where you use the same smartphone for everything.

c x

so limitated for dev

Cerberus

@cx Fine? It tells me "your trip will take 5 hours" while in fact it takes 1.3 hours.

That's not fine.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Oh. well, my point is that if you want to use your smartphone for everything, you can't these days, because sometimes you need some function to be possible even if you're not in the room with your phone.

KitFox

2:32 PM

Do you have it on bike mode or something?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Eg. playing music in the living room upstairs on a phone. My phone is downstairs with me, so who can listen to music upstairs? nobody. But if your house had, eg, 4 extra android devices lying around, then it'd be easy.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 How do you mean? You could use your smartphone for smartphony things and also this hypothetical landline.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, OK, not that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'm explaining why I like this Android landline concept.

and how I wish it went further.

KitFox

> Object reference not set to an instance of an object.

Good Lord, I know how to break code.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I have a perfectly good Nexus S that can't be used for calls anymore because I took the sim out. if only I could use it to make calls on my landline. That'd be sweet.

Matt Эллен

2:35 PM

BSOD!

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Sure.

@MattЭллен What!?

A BSOD, you?

That's totally unfair.

Matt Эллен

Yeah.

Cerberus

Was it Google Maps?

Matt Эллен

I don't know. I get them from time to time on my work computer.

Cerberus

Annoying.

What OS?

Matt Эллен

2:36 PM

also firefox crashes a fair bit too

Cerberus

Which version?

Matt Эллен

I put it does to some faulty bit of hardware

@Cerberus whateevr the latest is

it's on auto update

currently 22

Cerberus

My Firefox started crashing a few months ago, but I think it happened after some Flash update. I haven't updated Firefox itself in a year.

Matt Эллен

but it's been crashing lots in the previous versions too

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Noted.

KitFox

2:37 PM

This dog is making me crazy.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Hmm OK. Not for me.

KitFox

At least it isn't barking, but it's sitting in my lap and keeps standing in front of my monitors.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus nah, nor for me, at home. but this work box is flakier than I'm used to

KitFox

And trying to lick my face.

Matt Эллен

awww

KitFox

2:38 PM

It's a little dog.

I'm trying to remember liking dogs.

Cerberus

(Remember the trip that took 5+ hours in map view, 1.30 hours in detailed view? It now takes 1.57 hours in map view, still 1.30 in detailed view. Google, what have you done?)

KitFox

And it's not my dog, which makes it harder.

But I offered to let him hang here so he wouldn't be lonely.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Hmm could be hardware...what OS?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus windows 7

same as at home

KitFox

Agh. Heavy dog head on my arm. Can't reach the middle keys.

Cerberus

2:41 PM

@MattЭллен Hmmm.

google.com/maps/…

Do you see "5 h 52 min" when you click that?

Matt Эллен

no

1 hr 53 mins

KitFox

1 h 53 mins

Cerberus

And when you click on "more options"?

KitFox

1 h 29 mins by car

Cerberus

??

KitFox

2:42 PM

6 h 53 mins by bike

Matt Эллен

where is "more options"?

Cerberus

Are you using the new Maps?

Called "beta".

Matt Эллен

oh, no, I'm using normal maps

KitFox

I'm using your link.

Cerberus

It wasn't updated automatically for you?

It works normally in the "classic" Maps.

Matt Эллен

2:43 PM

yeah. I followed your link, so if that's in new maps then I am

KitFox

What? Maps?

Cerberus

@MattЭллен No, that happens independently of the link.

KitFox

There's nothing says beta.

Cerberus

I thought everyone was on the new Maps already.

But apparently not.

KitFox

They wouldn't be automatically if it's still in Beta.

Matt Эллен

2:44 PM

no. I'm not trying those new maps. I'll leave that to early adopters like you ;)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

If you go to the maps home page you might see a thing asking you to try the new maps.

I did that and see the same result as cerb.

However, I'm way less upset about it than he is.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен See? I am punished for trying to be all cool and early-adopterish!

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Am I upset?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus no! you're being helpful, because you're obviously going to submit a bug report to Google about how the new maps is broken

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

well, upset enough to complain here, about a tiny software bug in a beta product.

KitFox

So it looks like it is drawing on an actual published schedule for the times.

Cerberus

2:46 PM

I just think it is rather odd to display the wrong trip durations. They take those directly from a third party, and they are displayed correctly in the classic version.

KitFox

Which would account for the difference.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Uhh that is not a tiny bug. It's huge. Routing becomes entirely unreliable.

KitFox

And is thoughtful and useful.

IT'S NOT A BUG!

Are you listening to me?

Cerberus

Yes, it is a bug.

KitFox

IT'S NOT! It tells you when the next bus leaves.

Cerberus

2:48 PM

Never mind.

KitFox

The bus trip is 1 h 30 min.

Cerberus

We'll discuss this some other time.

KitFox

The next bus leaves in 4 hours.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus it's a tiny bug. It shows two times, one is right, one is wrong. deal.

Matt Эллен

blackjack!

KitFox

2:50 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But they are both right.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Also it does look like Kit is right, that it is including your waiting time if you take the selected train.

Matt Эллен

sneltrain!

KitFox

It's the one that only goes once per day. There is another that leaves every 30 min.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It shows only the wrong time on the primary page. I would say, "meh, I'll go by car" if I saw that 1.53 minutes and didn't click on details.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Are you complaining about the 1:53 time or the 5:53?

Cerberus

2:51 PM

Both are wrong.

If it has suddenly started including "time until departure" in the trip duration (???), then that would explain it, and it would be an even bigger bug.

KitFox

It's not a bug. It's by design.

You can report it, and I bet that's what they will tell you.

Cerberus

No trip planner ever does that, because it makes the entire planner entirely useless. Which is also why the classic version does not do it.

KitFox

I think it is a useful feature.

Especially if I am trying to figure out how to get somewhere on my smartphone.

I can know when I need to be at the bus station.

And how much time I have for lunch first.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

There are clearly two times there.

One shows how long the trip is.

One shows, I guess, how long it will take you to get there if you leave now.

O0oO0oOO0ooO

I am glad I have so much time to waste because I am only 20 (officially, SO age is wrong)

KitFox

2:55 PM

The other shows how soon you can be there.

Cerberus

No, the way they normally deal with that is by giving the time of departure, automatically sorting by time of arrival, and adding the trip duration as the third bit of info.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, in small print. The large print is where the trip duration normally is (and was) and ought to be, but without a label.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Just because something is done "normally" a certain way doesn't mean that's the best way.

Cerberus

But it is.

That "5h52" is utterly useless to me.

1 min ago, by Cerberus

No, the way they normally deal with that is by giving the time of departure, automatically sorting by time of arrival, and adding the trip duration as the third bit of info.

This is how it ought to be done and normally is done.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

yes, thanks, I read the message I replied to.

Cerberus

Just in case!

KitFox

2:57 PM

I disagree that that is how it ought to be done.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

And I suppose it's impossible that Google might have tried multiple strategies for succinctly providing information like this, and found that Cerb's Favourite Way (TM) is not the best way.

Cerberus

What useful info could I get from having an unlabelled "5h52" there?

KitFox

That's how long, right at this moment, it will take you to get there using that method.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

If you are trying to get somewhere in a hurry, knowing your trip time from now is kinda useful.

Cerberus

If I am in a hurry, why does it display that trip at all?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:59 PM

Sometimes I need to optimize my travel by driving or transit.

I don't need to know how long an ideal trip is for any particular method. I need to know how long will it take me right now.

KitFox

Right.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus yes, I think the sort order is wrong, but what they're displaying makes sense

O0oO0oOO0ooO

Guys, I ran across a question with a doubtful official answer and I wish to clarify the answer of it. So question is,
"After months of legal dispute over its release, the company ___ launched a sequel to the popular video game last Friday"
and answer choices are
a) finals
b) finalising
c) finally
d) final

I picked c) which is an adjective because it describes something ("launched a sequel to the popular video game"). But the official answer says it is b), I'm correct right?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I will drive longer, or wait around for a bus longer, whichever saves time in the end.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The time of arrival is far more useful for that.

KitFox

3:00 PM

@MattЭллен And I think it's sorted that way because that bus trip is the shortest method of travel.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus possibly.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox but only in a few hours.

it's not the shortest right now

because you can't take it right now

KitFox

Yeah, I know. But I think that must be why it is like that.

@O0oO0oOO0ooO Yes.

Cerberus

If you're in a hurry, you pick the topmost option, which will have the earliest possible arrival time. Then you look at the departure time next to it, and you can see how long you have until you need to leave the house.

Matt Эллен

yeah, so the sort order is wrong

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:01 PM

@O0oO0oOO0ooO C is correct because it's an adverb, not an adjective. B cannot work there, nor A nor D.

O0oO0oOO0ooO

Hmm, I guess I bought a stupid textbook

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway, Cerb, there's a helpful "Send feedback" button on the top right of the page. Please send in your feedback.

Cerberus

If you're not in a hurry, you just want to know which trip has the shortest duration and gets you to B before the arrival time you need. So then "time between now and arrival" isn't very useful either.

O0oO0oOO0ooO

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh, is the word "finally" an adverb? damn

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, I was going to.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:03 PM

@Cerberus You know, when I click on the "driving" button, then back to "transit" for your map link, the topmost selected transit is not the 5 hour one.

Cerberus

I was just shocked that they would experiment with such a vital thing and fail at it so horrible, with no label at all.

KitFox

@Cerberus So you should tell them that.

Matt Эллен

Hai!

RegDwighт

Can "red car" be used without a preposition?

@MattЭллен Wo?

Matt Эллен

@RegDwighт Du!

Cerberus

3:05 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah, I've seen it switch around. It's really weird. But my main gripe is that the 1h30 option never shows up on the main screen, and that is the very thing I was in the process of using it for: to see whether the train was faster than by car. Now I get the impression that the car is a lot faster, which in fact it is not.

RegDwighт

TIL that a fly is a bug.

Matt Эллен

@RegDwighт as in "I saw a red car"? yes

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The more I play with it the more I think the big duration time is just broken and is n ot a "from now trip time".

RegDwighт

And I learned it the hard way, by getting called an asshole on Reddit.

Cerberus

Oh, I think it is the "from now" time, but just calculated for the next train that goes according to that exact schedule, same stations, same route, same transits, same trip duration.

RegDwighт

3:07 PM

@MattЭллен very nice, you pass the test. Now go answer this one:

1

Q: Can "to be able to" be used without preposition

Can the phrase "to be able to" be used without the preposition "to". For example, can you say "I will call you back as soon as I am able?"

Matt Эллен

@RegDwighт did you further query what use a hole full of asses would be?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The other schedules have trains that go every 30 minutes or so, so their times get inflated less. They're still inflated, because I see the 1:30 option nowhere.

RegDwighт

@MattЭллен I tried to be polite, but on Reddit that simply does not work.

So I instead chose to cry in a dark corner somewhere, and not visit Reddit for the next twenty minutes or so.

Matt Эллен

awww

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

so @Reg that train link you sent me was interesting. It's true that 1 plate/segment is a much easier slope. But the train CAN climb the steeper slope. Just really slowly.

RegDwighт

3:09 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 perhaps you could camouflage it as a giant snail.

That'd be awesome.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

lol a snail train.

KitFox

Are you saying we're a dark corner?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I thought we were a grey sac

Cerberus

hides

RegDwighт

@KitFox Are you saying I'm crying?

KitFox

3:10 PM

And flies are bugs, Did you not know really?

RegDwighт

I really did not know. And I really did not realize I was the only one on the entire planet, with the exception of scientists and Wikipedia.

KitFox

@RegDwighт I will pretend you're not, if it makes you uncomfortable to admit it.

Matt Эллен

@RegDwighт but... the answer there is "no" because you can't say "to be able to" without the last to, because then you're saying "to be able" which isn't the same, as can be seen by the fewer words.

KitFox

@RegDwighт They're insects. Aren't all insects bugs?

Or only the hemiptera?

RegDwighт

@MattЭллен so if that is the answer there, why are you posting it here?

Cerberus

3:12 PM

@RegDwighт A whole twenty minutes? Wow. How did you feel? Didn't you cheat during that long, long time?

RegDwighт

@KitFox please understand that I've been through these exact questions. I come here to take a break from them, not to answer them yet again. Thank you. cries louder

KitFox

But...but...

Sorry.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Google says a bug is an insect, or an insect with mouthparts modified for biting and sucking. It then says that a fly is an insect with transparent wings and mouthparts modified for biting.

KitFox

I can't think of any insects that wouldn't be bugs.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So I'm curious, @reg, what is the distinction for you between bugs and flies.

Cerberus

3:14 PM

Stop bugging poor Reg!

RegDwighт

> Formally, an insect of the order Hemiptera, known as the "true bugs". Informally, an arthropod—except aquatic crustaceans and xiphosura—including individuals or species of insect, arachnid, myriapod, woodlouse.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'm flying him, it's okay

Cerberus

No need to replace the NSA.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus thank you.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Ohh good.

RegDwighт

3:15 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 the exact same distinction as for any German, Russian, or any other person I know. Or for any English-speaking scientist, for that matter.

Hemiptera

Hemiptera is an order of insects most often known as the true bugs (cf. bug), comprising around 50,000–80,000 species of cicadas, aphids, planthoppers, leafhoppers, shield bugs, and others. They range in size from to around , and share a common arrangement of sucking mouthparts. Sometimes, the name true bugs is applied more narrowly still to insects of the suborder Heteroptera only. Characteristics The defining feature of hemipterans is their possession of mouthparts where the mandibles and maxillae are sheathed within a modified labium to form a "beak" or "rostrum", called a proboscis,...

Cerberus

Bugger, I need to go to the pharmacy now. Laterzz.

@RegDwighт But we don't have such a word in Dutch.

KitFox

Bugs is bugs, and also sometimes flies is bugs.

Also sometimes germs is bugs.

Matt Эллен

and sometimes recording devices are bugs

RegDwighт

@KitFox it all started with an episode of Breaking Bad, which, for crying out loud, was titled "The Fly". So that person I was responding to was technically wrong no matter what.

KitFox

Well, I love you, @Reg and people are just mean when they're stupid.

RegDwighт

3:17 PM

Halfvleugeligen

Halfvleugeligen of snavelinsecten (Hemiptera) vormen een orde van insecten waarvan de soorten over de gehele wereld voorkomen. Tot de snavelinsecten behoren alle wantsen, bladluizen en cicaden. Er zijn ongeveer 80.000 soorten die in grootte verschillen van enkele millimeters tot ongeveer 15 cm. Aangezien veel soorten van plantensappen leven, wordt een groot aantal gezien als plaaginsect. Snavelinsecten zijn een complexe groep van dieren die er totaal verschillend kunnen uitzien. Verschillende deelgroepen zoals de cicaden zijn nog enigszins gelijkend maar de wantsen en de blad- en schildlu...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwighт bah. Language is more than what "scientists" say.

Cerberus

@RegDwighт I don't even know what that means. A technical term meaning "hemiptera", no doubt.

KitFox

It's cute how they translated the Latin name.

RegDwighт

@KitFox that's what I said to them. I said, I very much realize my ignorance, but it takes two to tango. I was not aware of the colloquial definition, and you were not aware of the non-colloquial one. We both displayed equal levels of ignorance of each other's definition. And yet only one of us gets called an asshole.

Seriously, fuck that.

It's always like that.

It's always the non-scientific knowledge that makes you lose out.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

yeah. fuck that.

KitFox

3:18 PM

fuck those assholes

RegDwighт

Eww

KitFox

Those holes made of ass.

Matt Эллен

those holes filled with asses

the dead bodies of equines long passed

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

fyi I'd consider centipedes "bugs". But probably not spiders. depends.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus thankfully that picture clears it all up!

KitFox

3:20 PM

Bugs are small critters.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Frankly I think the scientists are wrong to try to limit a common word with a wide range of meaning to such a strict definition, and then get annoyed when people think they mean the broader definition.

RegDwighт

Well looks like I have to leave this place for 20 minutes as well. Sigh.

KitFox

Oi! Watch your mouth!

Matt Эллен

smug calls are bitters

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwighт No, don't go!

KitFox

3:21 PM

We can talk about balrogs!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Are balrogs bugs?

KitFox

Or how annoying this dog is.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

what about tiny balrogs

flitting about your head, flightlessly.

KitFox

Tiny bubbles.

Matt Эллен

do they have six legs?

KitFox

3:22 PM

sex legs

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

do wings count as legs?

Matt Эллен

no

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

in insects, no, in chordates, sorta

Matt Эллен

then it would be eight legs

KitFox

I guess my touch typing needs work.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:23 PM

are insect wings analogous to legs, the way, eg, bat wings are? I didn't think so

KitFox

Not in the scientific sense of analog.

Matt Эллен

but only insects can be bugs

KitFox

Bacteria can be bugs.

Matt Эллен

we've established this

everything else we call bugs aren't bugs

if they were bugs then they'd be insects

KitFox

Oh, then no. Not insects. Hemiptera.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:24 PM

well, I'm pretty sure balrogs aren't arthropods

KitFox

Hemiptera is a class of insects.

Matt Эллен

exactly

so all bugs are insects

KitFox

Not class. Stupid. Order. An order of insects.

Matt Эллен

right

so they're all insects

KitFox

Yes, all bugs are insects but not all insects are bugs.

Matt Эллен

3:25 PM

I never said all insects are bugs

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

so if there were a centipede, a millipede, and a spider under your bed, you wouldn't say "there are bugs under the bed".

KitFox

I'm just clarifying.

Matt Эллен

I only said all bugs are insects

Cerberus

Got mah meds.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox and calling me stupid

Robusto

3:26 PM

@MattЭллен They don't have to be bugs to bug you. For example, the NSA.

Cerberus

I love going to a pharmacy just before closing time: then there's hardly any waiting.

KitFox

@MattЭллен No! No! I was calling me stupid.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

►

Matt Эллен

@KitFox oh! Well then that's OK

Cerberus

@RegDwighт Nice, huh?

Dutch wins when it comes to translating scientific jargon into gibberish.

Matt Эллен

3:28 PM

anyway. I'm just messing. I don't really care either way

Cerberus

I believe every other IE language has something like mathematica.

Robusto

@MattЭллен Your anomie is inspiring.

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 makes notes to never have bananas and chocolate again

Robusto

@Cerberus That's the problem with IE. It just doesn't adhere to standards!

Matt Эллен

@Robusto I'm still that otherberry

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:29 PM

@KitFox I KNOW ew

Robusto

@MattЭллен Now I'm thinking more like huckleberry . . .

Cerberus

@Robusto Hehe. It's so old.

Lunch, later.

CU

Bai.

3:30 PM

@KitFox that video made you feel hungry? :)

KitFox

It was enlightening.

I guess I am rather exceptional.

Despite not being a porn star.

Now really, see you.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I love how the voice has an impeccable accent and intonation.

Quite the opposite of most porn stars...

Matt Эллен

@KitFox in an hour and a half in the writer's chat!

bai

Mitja

Hi, what's the phrase for knowledge transfer when you're under influence in a group of people?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:57 PM

@Mitja hi. Can you elaborate?

Mahnax

@KitFox Guess I hang out here too much :)

Mitja

When you join a group of people, they start to ____ on you. Something like that, I think.

rub off

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

yes, that is an idiomatic phrase.

MετάEd

4:41 PM

@Mitja I must say that's never happened to me.

Maybe I'm in the wrong line of work.

KitFox

Try porn. Speaking of which, are you coming to Writer's chat today?

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…