English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

14:01

That’s pretty trucey for me.

RegDwighт

Two downvotes in three days. Both on deleted stuff. So there.

Actually the ones that are not on deleted stuff are almost exclusively on stuff that's closed.

Also, not necessarily recent. I just saw I downvoted something from 2010.

Matt Эллен

well, I can't see my downvotes on deleted stuffs, so my picture could be skewed

RegDwighт

Mine is skewed the other way round, which is why I can't be arsed to post it here in its entirety. Won't fit onto a single screen anyway.

Matt Эллен

zoom out!

user19161

@tchrist Wow, I ain't on that list!

user19161

14:06

@RegDwighт Wow, I am on that list!

RegDwighт

@MattЭллен doesn't help much.

tchrist

@MattЭллен That is why I had to split it.

user19161

@tchrist Wow, I ain't on that list!

Matt Эллен

y'all need to learn how to zoom

RegDwighт

OMFG. Nohat's wearing a hat.

Matt Эллен

14:10

Holy Shiz!

user19161

@MattЭллен Your latest question was one of some subtlety, so it is not general reference. Just an observation.

RegDwighт

2

For posterity.

user19161

@RegDwighт I prefer not to. It is too silly. It should be banned this year.

Matt Эллен

@JasperLoy thanks

RegDwighт

0

Q: Pigs see everything colorful

Is it through that pigs see everything colorful ? Which is one of the reason why the eat everything.

american-english

Matt Эллен

14:14

you can't handle the throughth

tchrist

Guinea pigs are dichromats. I don’t know about swine. Guinea pigs lack long-wave cones.

Most mammals are dichromats. Old World monkeys excepted.

Because we all went through an evolutionary needle when we were little nocturnal ratty-shrewy thingies.

Don’t need cones at night.

Matt Эллен

bring on the tetrachromats!

tchrist

The thing is, the non-mammal tri- and tetrachromats are better at being what they are than we are, because are L-M split is not wide enough.

its_me

I am Mortimer of Lafter Hall. -- what is Lafter Hall in this case? the name of the place or house? Anyone has any idea?

Matt Эллен

it is the name of a hall

its_me

14:23

(sorry if interrupting...)

KitFox

Probably the hall he owes fealty to.

warl0ck

"north-eastern Balkans in c. 680" what does "c." mean?

KitFox

Circa.

Matt Эллен

@tchrist I guess I'll just stick to my adequate trichromacy for now then.

tchrist

Also known as Mrs Circus.

its_me

14:25

@KitFox But that meaning kinda fails in another context. Within five miles there are very few houses. Here is Lafter Hall. (S. Holmes reading from a map.)

KitFox

@its_me Then Lafter Hall is probably the name of a local estate.

its_me

If the hall is inside a building, why'd Holmes refer to it directly, and not the building itself

hmmm...

Matt Эллен

the hall is a building

tchrist

No, it is not that kind of hall.

KitFox

It's probably a building.

its_me

14:26

oh

tchrist

It’s like how every town has a Legion Hall.

Matt Эллен

city hall, village hall, dance hall, etc.

KitFox

Or a Grange Hall.

tchrist

That is a building, not a room.

KitFox

Or a Union Hall.

tchrist

14:27

Right.

Is Union Hall the train station?

its_me

That cleared things. Thank you all. :)

Matt Эллен

no problem!

tchrist

Oh, no, that is Union Station. Union Halls is for the trade unions.

KitFox

Hall like that is a large building for meeting. Or receiving vassals.

tchrist

♬ Here we come a-wassailing. . . . ♬

How they have leaves so green around the solstice, I dunno.

KitFox

14:32

Holly.

tchrist

Oh. I see.

Actually, there was an autumn/yule split.

> In the cider-producing counties in the South West of England (primarily Devon, Somerset, Dorset, Gloucestershire and Herefordshire) or South East England (Kent, Sussex, Essex and Suffolk) wassailing refers to a traditional ceremony that involves singing and drinking the health of trees in the hopes that they might better thrive. The purpose of wassailing is to awaken the cider apple trees and to scare away evil spirits to ensure a good harvest of fruit in the Autumn.

Robusto

hall 6. The main house on a landed estate. When someone says "Mortimer of Lafter Hall" or "Robin of Locksley Hall" they are using it synecdochically.

tchrist

> Here We Come A-wassailing (or Here We Come A-caroling) is an English traditional Christmas carol and New Years song,[1] apparently composed c. 1850.[2] The old English wassail song refers to 'wassailing', or singing carols door to door wishing good health,[3] while the a- is an archaic intensifying prefix; compare A-Hunting We Will Go and lyrics to The Twelve Days of Christmas (e.g., "Six geese a-laying").

So the first wassailing was for awakening the cider trees.

Matt Эллен

very important job, that

tchrist

> the Christmas spirit often made the rich a little more generous than usual, and bands of beggars and orphans used to dance their way through the snowy streets of England, offering to sing good cheer and to tell good fortune if the householder would give them a drink from his wassail bowl or a penny or a pork pie or, let them stand for a few minutes beside the warmth of his hearth.

> the wassail bowl itself was a hearty combination of hot ale or beer, apples, spices and mead, just alcoholic enough to warm tingling toes and fingers of the singers

Wassail

Wassail (Old English wæs hæl, literally 'be you healthy') refers both to the salute 'Waes Hail' and to the drink of wassail, a hot mulled cider traditionally drunk as an integral part of wassailing, an ancient southern English drinking ritual intended to ensure a good cider apple harvest the following year. Wassailing In the cider-producing counties in the South West of England (primarily Devon, Somerset, Dorset, Gloucestershire and Herefordshire) or South East England (Kent, Sussex, Essex and Suffolk) wassailing refers to a traditional ceremony that involves singing and drinking the ...

> Wes þu hal.

Andrew Leach

14:36

@tchrist Wish you well/hale?

tchrist

Yes.

Andrew Leach

Oh yes. It's in the article.

tchrist

> ‘Westu Théoden hal!’ cried Éomer.

Andrew Leach

Unfortunately wassailing appears to have gone the way of OE in Sussex.

We don't even get carol-singers.

tchrist

> Today is the old Twelfth Night in the UK from the time when Christmas was in January. If you are in Cider country at this time then expect to go to or to witness the ancient custom of Wassailing.

From 2010-01-17.

Andrew Leach

14:38

@tchrist What?

tchrist

No carollers! Barbarians! :)

@AndrewLeach From here. Very cool.

Andrew Leach

Twelfth Night is twelve days after Christmas.

Oh. 17th.

tchrist

Wassailing is a very old English custom with its roots in Paganism and the word Wassail comes from the old Anglo Saxon 'wes hal' meaning to be whole, in good health. Wassailling is carried out to protect the cider apple trees from evil spirits and to ensure a plentiful crop in the coming season. The tradition is still upheld throughout the country, but particularly so in Somerset, the home of Cider. The evening commences with sustenance in the form of apple cake washed down with mulled cider, at which point a wassailing queen is chosen.

> When: January 17th, old Twelfth Night is the traditional date for Wassailing and although ceremonies and songs (example below) vary slightly from orchard to orchard they all run along the same theme.

Christmas in January?

How did that work?

Julian?

KitFox

Christmas starts on January 6th for some.

Orthodox.

When the Three Wise Men showed up.

Matt Эллен

those slackers

tchrist

14:41

Ah right, 6 and 12 might be 17, depending.

KitFox

(I should say it starts on the eve prior.)

tchrist

Spanish children get gifts of the magi on the 6th.

Matt Эллен

toads usually get given seats. Gifts of the fungi

KitFox

groan

Matt Эллен

yes!

tchrist

14:44

Reyes Magos

KitFox

I am having the weirdest join issue.

Andrew Leach

I never got the hang of joining.

KitFox

I have one date per row, November 7 - 10. For example.

tchrist

> 10 Dic 2012 ... Los Reyes Magos reciben cada año cartas con listas interminables de juguetes.

Hee. They get gift lists, too. :)

KitFox

I'm self-joining the table so that the rows match up one day off. So Nov 7 joins the Nov 8 row.

Matt Эллен

14:46

interminable lists of toys

KitFox

So I should have 7 - 8, 8 - 9, 9 - 10, etc.

tchrist

@MattЭллен Those are carpentry tools, actually.

@MattЭллен Yep.

Matt Эллен

oh

tchrist

The toad’s tools.

KitFox

It works fine except for one row is missing. Just one. Why isn't it joining? I can see myself that it matches.

Matt Эллен

14:46

oh! lol

Andrew Leach

Inner Join or Left Join? The former doesn't cope with blank cells, the latter does.

I think.

RegDwighт

0

Q: Difference between Antisymettric and Nonsymmetric!

What Difference is between Antisymettric and Nonsymmetric? although i know meaning of Asymmetric!

differences

!!!!

Matt Эллен

@KitFox wouldn't it miss the last one off?

Robusto

> And the new Parkes observations finally do resolve this. As the material blows out from the galaxy it carries with it a magnetic field. Careful analysis of the affect of that field on the material using the Parkes data shows the energy source to be star formation, and not winds from the black hole. The shape and structure of the geysers indicate there must have been several different episodes of star formation, in fact, and not just one long, continuous event.

KitFox

@MattЭллен That's the idea. But this one is not at the end.

Robusto

14:48

Should've used effect, not affect. Stupid scientist.

KitFox

It's second from the end.

@Robusto Hey, you don't know that they weren't carefully studying the psychology of the magnetic field. They have feelings too!

tchrist

@Robusto Ties in with stupisymmetry and sillystring theory on @Reg’s question.

Robusto

@KitFox I'm using Occam's RAZR to access my Facebook page right now.

3

Q: Why say "nay" when you could say "no"

I am curious as to why "nay" replaces the simple unequivocal "no" in the context of voting. My research in Merriam-Webster tells me that "nay" means "no" (not the other way around) and the first known use of "nay" appeared in 1400s. Since the use of "no" existed before 1400 and the word remains ...

etymology negation

Why say nay when you could say aye?

Just say aye to drugs!

tchrist

We no longer have to say ¡Ay, ay, ay, ay!

The Frito Bandito is outta biz in Colorado.

Eugene

Evening everyone!

tchrist

15:01

Look, two mark them two Favorites!

Two people have favorited that . . . thing.

Eugene

Guys, could anyone quickly tell me, what would be the correct way of saying "Buy in credit"?

tchrist

Buy on credit.

Eugene

Maybe "Buy in lease?"

tchrist

I do not know what “buy in lease” might mean. “Lease to own”?

Matt Эллен

what do you want "buy in credit" to mean?

Eugene

15:03

@tchrist would it mean, that I have some credits stashed and I can buy on them?

Matt Эллен

I agree with tchrist, though, "buy on credit" is a normal thing to say

credits as in a type of currency? or credit as in what a bank gives you and allows you to access with a credit card?

Eugene

@tchrist for example. Webshop has a laptop and I can buy it right away or with monthly payments. What would be the correct way to say "Buy ... monthly payments"

Still "Buy on credit"?

Matt Эллен

yes

tchrist

Sure.

Buying on credit means you promise to pay later.

Andrew Leach

@Eugene Or Buy by monthly payments or on or with. But Buy on credit.

Matt Эллен

15:06

yes

Eugene

I see. Thank you.

RegDwighт

@tchrist one of them is wok.

wok, France

580 4 9

british-english differences orthography word-choice word-usage american-english programming

tchrist

Ok, I have a confession.

I do not understand this whole Favorite biz.

Why bother?

RegDwighт

It makes no sense indeed.

tchrist

And yet there are badgers.

RegDwighт

15:09

You only get a badge for getting favorited. Not favoriting others.

tchrist

Exactly.

RegDwighт

So when your question is at 24 favs, you are free to cast the 25th yourself and get that badge.

Matt Эллен

I have a few favourites, I find it more convenient than bookmarks

tchrist

We have no stellars.

The most is like 38.

RegDwighт

Yeah fugetaboutit.

Matt Эллен

15:10

39

Q: How do the tenses in English correspond temporally to one another?

Non-native speakers often get confused about what the tenses in English mean. With input from some of the folk here I've put together a diagram that I hope will provide some clarity on the matter. I offer it as the first answer to this question. Consider it a living document. Input is welcome, ...

verbs tense

tchrist

Am wrong.

Matt Эллен

74

Q: What are your favorite English language tools?

This will prevent myself from asking an obvious, silly question again. What are the English language tools you found most useful? I found Corpus Concordance English extremely useful for looking up collocations. Please, one tool per answer.

learning resources

tchrist

data.stackexchange.com/english/query/90388/…

SEDE is fucked. Try clicking any of those links.

They take you to deleted answers, not to favorited questions.

Or simply to utterly wrong questions.

Wrong site.

RegDwighт

That's because the links are to SO, not ELU.

Jinx.

tchrist

Here, this is right.

data.stackexchange.com/english/query/85906/…

RegDwighт

15:15

Um.

It cuts off the top two questions.

Matt Эллен

where are the top two?

jinx

maybe they're community owned?

RegDwighт

Ah!

That's it.

Which is a dumb thing to exclude because the OP will still get the badge.

Matt Эллен

quite

fixt the other query

hmmm, but it's not saved

tchrist

Is the OP right that this is not a dupe because he does not like the other answer? How would that work? Smells piscifragrant to me.

5

Q: Can supper and dinner be used interchangeably?

Wikipedia states that the words supper and dinner can be used interchangeably. But I am not thoroughly convinced as, well, they are two different words. According to Merriam-Webster dictionary: Supper is a light meal served late in the evening. Dinner is the principal meal of the day. I am co...

meaning word-usage synonyms

Citing wikipedia is annoying enough.

Matt Эллен

Social Physique is no. 1? I don't even know what it means

RegDwighт

15:24

See comment.

I was thinking about taking it out but decided against.

Matt Эллен

I see. that's a lot of false positive.

RegDwighт

All 58 occurrences.

@MattЭллен It's not a false positive, though.

Which is why I left it in.

Matt Эллен

I suppose it depends on your criteria

RegDwighт

Yeah I guess what I'm saying is my criterion is we all learned something from it.

Matt Эллен

true

RegDwighт

15:26

Which is the whole point of such stats anyway.

Otherwise I could just say "no" and leave my answer at that. Or say "use lean" and be done.

But that's boring.

I left some proper names in for much the same reason.

Matt Эллен

ah, of course, Robusto phisique

RegDwighт

I mean, if someone calls his fitness center "Fit Physique", who cares it's a name. It's still a collocation.

Plus they still didn't call it "Low Physique". That's a data point.

I'd make an exception for "est physique" but it didn't make the top 50 anyway.

> Dens le langage... tout ce qui est physique joue le premier role: le rythme, le poids, la masse

I guess that's how they talk in Louisiana.

Matt Эллен

:D

RegDwighт

> minutes d'entrainement specifiquement dirige a leur condition anterieur a chacun de six sessions de pratique physique pendant un periode de trois semaines.

> nous pourrions considerer que nous avons la de remarquables documents concernant la misere physique et morale des classes populaires de Paris...

Matt Эллен

look at them frenches, using our words. ain't they got enough of their own?

4

RegDwighт

15:33

The French is in ur internets drinking your COCA.

cornbread ninja

blog.wordnik.com/tolkien-and-the-bestiarium-of-fantasy @tchrist

3

tchrist

@RegDwighт They stole the Urtext from one or another Verlag.

@cornbreadninja Oh, that’s new. Thanks.

KitFox

My husband is probably going to be upset about the bedroom redecorating thing.

I think I've gone a little off the deep end.

I haven't spent on credit in twelve-odd years.

cornbread ninja

@KitFox did you pull the kohl's trigger?

@tchrist curtsies

KitFox

@cornbreadninja Not yet. I'm going to the physical location later. I need to touch stuff before I buy it.

cornbread ninja

15:37

@KitFox nods

tchrist

@KitFox Mad redecorating can be a sign of simmering mania. Or as in the Captain and Tenille’s case, just too damned much LSD.

KitFox

But I decided I need (new) curtains and rods and an area rug for the floor, and I think I will get a storage ottoman for the foot of the bed so that he'll stop sitting on the bed and waking me up in the morning when he's putting his shoes on.

RegDwighт

@cornbreadninja uh. They say, "surely everyone will know what barrow-wight means", but they still link to its definition, and as if that alone wasn't hilarious, the definition then reads: "sorry, no definitions found".

KitFox

I haven't been so enthusiastic about decor since I was pregnant last.

@RegDwighт rofl

RegDwighт

I, for one, don't have the slightest idea who a barrow-wight is. I only know Barry White.

KitFox

15:38

It's a wight that inhabits a barrow. Duh.

cornbread ninja

That which a wheelbarrow can reasonably transport?

tchrist

’T’ain’t a who, but a what.

cornbread ninja

@KitFox interesting. I'm a leave-shoes-at-the-door person.

RegDwighт

I was totally expecting them to use the word hobbit as an example. Because that is really a word everybody knows, whether or not they read Tolkien, and across languages to boot.

tchrist

Raising the question of what a wight is, or a barrow.

@RegDwighт Do you know either of those two?

Barrow is burial mound.

Wight is some old guy.

cornbread ninja

15:40

Isle of Wight?

KitFox

@cornbreadninja Me too. He was a leave-my-shoes-on-my-wife's-side-of-the-bed-between-her-and-the-door, but that's changed.

cornbread ninja

Dude has his own island?

RegDwighт

KitFox

A wight is like a wraith. Undead.

cornbread ninja

@KitFox sometimes there are pants between my side and the bathroom. :c

KitFox

15:41

@cornbreadninja It took me denting the drywall with screaming fury at about one am to get my point across.

To his credit, he didn't forget it.

cornbread ninja

:D

tchrist

OE. wiht m., f., n. = OS. wiht m. thing, pl. demons (MLG. wicht m., n. thing, being, creature, demon, LG. wicht n. girl, MDutch, Dutch wicht little child), OHG., MHG. wiht m., n. creature, being, thing, esp. of elves and dwarfs, (G. wicht m. creature, being, infant),
ONor. vættr, véttr, vitr f. living creature, thing (also in idiomatic uses and phr. ekki vætta, vættki, vættr not a whit, naught, not, vettugi nothing, hvatvetna anything whatever), Goth. waiht n. (only in ni··waiht nothing), waihts f. εἱ̆δος, πρᾰγμα (ni··.waihtais or waihts nothing); ulterior connexions uncertain.

cornbread ninja

wight
/wīt/
Noun

A person of a specified kind, esp. one regarded as unfortunate: "he was an unlucky wight".
A spirit, ghost, or other supernatural being.

Synonyms
man - person - creature - soul - human - individual

KitFox

I think it was probably the only time I have ever actually thrown things in anger.

RegDwighт

Yeah I read the entire Wikipedia article. And I am none the wiser.

tchrist

15:42

† 1. A living being in general; a creature. Obs.
b. orig. and chiefly with (good or bad) epithet, applied to supernatural, preternatural, or unearthly beings. Obs. or rare arch. In the 17th c. esp. of the four beasts of the Apocalypse.

RegDwighт

I even looked at some images. And I am none the wiser still.

FFS, they should have just used hobbit there.

Then I'd be reading on right now.

tchrist

1826 W. Irving Babylon II. vi. 124 ― Those four wights upon the white, red, black, and pale horses.
1830 Scott Demonol. v. 147 ― That these were the good wights (fairies) dwelling in the court of Elfland.
1894 Morris Wood beyond World xxx. 230 ― Our protection against uncouth wights.

Matt Эллен

@RegDwighт the wight is the thing on the left

tchrist

Heh.

RegDwighт

@MattЭллен Yeah. That's like saying "the wight is a thing". Thank you very much.

Matt Эллен

15:44

@RegDwighт no trouble!

RegDwighт

I can explain a great many everythings that way.

KitFox

I thought I expressed it clearly enough.

RegDwighт

I reckon them wasn't in the movie. Or the other movies. Or the cartoons. Or the video games.

KitFox

4 mins ago, by KitFox

A wight is like a wraith. Undead.

Matt Эллен

they weren't in the films because they skipped the whole bombadil bit

tchrist

15:45

1604 Shaks. Oth. ii. i. 159 ― She was a wight, (if euer such wightes were)··To suckle Fooles, and chronicle small Beere.
1667 Milton P.L. ii. 613 ― And of it self the water flies All taste of living wight, as once it fled The lip of Tantalus.
1735 Pope Prol. Sat. 165 ― The Wight who reads not, and but scans and spells.

RegDwighт

Goes to look up wraith.

KitFox

A wraith is a powerful ghost.

Matt Эллен

Kit is quite wight

KitFox

Like the Ringwraiths.

tchrist

Tolkien worked on wraith for the OED.

RegDwighт

15:46

First and foremost, a wraith is a Scottish dialectal word.

KitFox

Good to know.

RegDwighт

Can't be arsed to learn Scottish now.

They should have used hobbit.

Matt Эллен

yes

but on with the explanations

RegDwighт

So with that out of the way, I'll resume reading.

Matt Эллен

you know the Lich King from World of Warcraft?

he's a wight

I think

I'm fairly sure

KitFox

15:47

He's a lich, not a wight.

Don't be daft.

Lich are more powerful than wights.

Matt Эллен

is a lich not a type of wight?

like a lion is a type of cat?

KitFox

Lichyard. shudders

RegDwighт

What is World of Warcraft?

KitFox

They are all undead. I don't know if I'd call a lich a subtype of wight.

I think of liches as commanders of wights.

Maybe not.

Matt Эллен

@RegDwighт oh. hmmm

you know what a barrow is?

KitFox

15:50

He doesn't do scary stuff.

None at all.

tchrist

> wraith: The word is of Scottish origin, both meanings being traded back by the OED to a verse-translation of Virgil’s Aeneid made in 1513 by the Scottish poet and bishop Gavin Douglas. Tolkien has taken the first sense and given it a particular twist: the Ringwraiths are a kind of living dead, invisible and completely controlled by Sauron by means of the rings they once wore.

Matt Эллен

ah

KitFox

Pikmin scares him.

Matt Эллен

lol

RegDwighт

COCA has 101 cites for "world of warcraft". And 802 for "barrow".

tchrist

15:51

That is not available on the Web. It is from The Ring of Words: Tolkien and the Oxford English Dictionary, by the same authors as in @cornbreadninja’s link.

RegDwighт

@KitFox that is very true.

COCA has three cites for pikmin.

KitFox

There was an impressive barrow opened along the Mongolian-Siberian border.

Matt Эллен

@RegDwighт well, people used to get buried in barrows.

KitFox

15,000 years old, IIRC.

tchrist

They also have two and a half pages on wight, which I shan’t be typing in.

Matt Эллен

15:52

the hillocks on the left:

KitFox

Like a cairn, but buried.

tchrist

It also discusses barrow.

Matt Эллен

inside the barrows, in fantasy writing, the dead could rise. these dead are barrow-wights

tchrist

Barrow is related to OE berg, hill, mound.

OE also used beorg as a burial mound.

KitFox

Yeah, the tombs are called such because of their resemblance to hills.

RegDwighт

15:54

@MattЭллен stupid people. Should have got used to getting buried in hobbits.

tchrist

Andrew Lang had barrowights in an 1891 work.

Morris and Magnússon also had barrow-bider and barrow-dweller.

Matt Эллен

@RegDwighт that might be a bit uncomfortable for the hobbits

RegDwighт

Only 86 cites for Super Mario, but 248 for Bowser.

Matt Эллен

!

RegDwighт

COCA is frigging racist against plumbers.

tchrist

15:55

But they also had barrow-wights, and they had them in 1869.

Matt Эллен

and the people who built the barrows were barrowwrights

thank you, thank you. I'm here all week

tchrist

> Tolkien, of course, uses the word in this sense for a baleful phantom creature haunting the grave-mounds on the Barrow-downs.

RegDwighт

0

Q: the act of using one word to refer to another

we use the word "suits" to refer to policemen. What is the word that describes this action? I had read this word in the book "HHhH", but for the life of me, I can't seem to recall it...

single-word-requests

Ugh.

user19161

Wow, I am nearing 26k. I better not reach 26k, or I will need to reach 30k.

tchrist

amazon.com/gp/product/B002I9YQXS

Matt Эллен

15:58

@JasperLoy you'd best answer some questions incorrectly

tchrist

I thought Amazon autoboxed.

user19161

@MattЭллен I continued after 25k only because I know many questions will be deleted later on.

tchrist

@JasperLoy I’ve smoked you.

Matt Эллен

@tchrist it should...

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…