English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

@simchona I can see why it might cause offense, and it's irrelevant and distracts from the question, but the latter is a good justification for the edit and the former is not.

Robusto

@simchona Ahem ... field? :)

Sonic The Hedgehog

@Sim I said eligible, doesn't make you automatically Guardian.

simchona

@Robusto Healthcare finance

ΜετάEd

Stating that God does not exist is not grounds for an edit, even if it offends.

5

Robusto

OK. I just hope you don't work for Cigna, since I'm currently hating them.

simchona

9:37 PM

@Robusto Nope.

Sonic The Hedgehog

@Meta I have to disagree. Albeit respectfully.

simchona

@ΜετάEd I think it's valid enough.

Robusto

Cool. I know they have a big presence there. I think it's their headquarters or something.

simchona

I'll be back on the East Coast soon enough

ΜετάEd

While we're at it, let's identify any question which quotes, say, a Hindu religious text, and delete the quotes, because it's offensive to, say, Muslims.

Robusto

9:38 PM

More school?

simchona

@Robusto Yup

@ΜετάEd There's a difference.

Evan was saying "God is supernatural and doesn't exist"

It was not a quote from a text, it was his opinion.

Robusto

@ΜετάEd I think we only need to make sure we offend all religions equally.

ΜετάEd

I'm all for removing hate speech, religious or what have you. But atheism is not offensive per se, just offensive in the minds of some who disagree with it.

@simchona Right, and it certainly did not belong there. It was a tasteless disgression.

simchona

@ΜετάEd I do agree that it's a slippery slope taking out religious references, though.

Not everything religious is verboten.

Robusto

I'm for leaving out trying to define what constitutes "hate speech" and just banning people who are known trolls. It is pretty easy to tell when someone is just being an asshole.

ΜετάEd

9:41 PM

@simchona All I object to is the characterization of that edit as removal of offensive speech. There is nothing offensive per se about Evan's opinion. That is, good move but bad reason given.

Sonic The Hedgehog

per se being key word here.

simchona

@ΜετάEd It is offensive to that user though. Offensive to one won't be offensive to all. I think it's still a valid reason.

Sonic The Hedgehog

Never in my life have I seen such respectful conversation about religion in internet though.

Kudos.

ΜετάEd

I want to discourage Luke and anyone else who might want to edit a question purely because they find the content offensive. I want, for example, for there to be no problem of any kind with someone asking an English question about a passage from The Satanic Verses (or The Satanic Bible), and quoting the passage.

Robusto

I don't know why we bent over backwards to extend EC every courtesy when his apparent motives are clearly to disrupt and offend.

ΜετάEd

9:43 PM

In other words, if someone takes offense, that is not sufficient grounds for an edit.

simchona

I told the kid who edited that, if EC edits back, flag the post.

Robusto

@ΜετάEd Tru dat.

Sonic The Hedgehog

@Meta Wait, so for it to be on the grounds for editing, it has to be offensive to all?

simchona

@ΜετάEd There's nothing wrong with that, no. But that question would be about the text. The line from EC's post had nothing to do with his question.

ΜετάEd

@Robusto Why? Because I think it's a measure of our character. We need to treat the assholes with the same consideration that we treat anybody.

@simchona Agree. My point is that Luke described the edit as removal of offensive text. I really, really, want to discourage that as justification for editing a text.

simchona

9:44 PM

@ΜετάEd Then comment on his Meta post, maybe.

2

Q: Why can't I flag a question as "offensive"?

I find a certain phrase in a particular question very offensive. However, I can't flag it as "offensive" like I can a comment. Is this by design? What should I flag it as instead?

Robusto

@ΜετάEd I disagree. I think we should tolerate them until their purpose becomes clear, and if that purpose is simply to destroy, then we need to take action to defend our community.

ΜετάEd

Ah, there's a meta post. Thank you.

I'm going to have to give this some thought. I want to express this right.

@Robusto That I totally agree with too.

Sonic The Hedgehog

On another note, I got Dragonslayer class due to a glitch.

:)

ΜετάEd

We do not need to be assholes about it, that's all.

Robusto

No, I disagree. If I ever make a statement about the non-existence of a deity, and someone edits that out, I am simply going to roll it back, however many times I have to. My right to express myself as I see fit trumps someone else's interpretation of what I believe as being offensive. For example, I would never edit out someone's example if it were to be unflattering to atheism. We're all entitled to our opinions. — Robusto 17 secs ago

Gigili

9:48 PM

@ΜετάEd It's a totally irrelevant remark.

Sonic The Hedgehog

You have to first defeat 30,000 hp monster 8 times, but I got through the "Shop" button (where you purchase the class once you finished the quest) by a glitch.

simchona

@Robusto As @Gigili said, though, it doesn't help the question.

It is merely thrown in there. If it were integral to the question, I'd say to leave it. But it's not.

Robusto

@simchona But that is not for you to decide.

Sonic The Hedgehog

@Rob your explanation is absolutely correct though.

@Rob Perhaps when she becomes a mod?

simchona

@Robusto But it is, as a user. We edit questions all the time to make them better and more relevant to the point at hand.

Sonic The Hedgehog

9:51 PM

Come on, doesn't anybody want to know how epic my class is?

Robusto

@SonicTheHedgehog If a mod starts editing my posts to remove imaginary offensive material, I will raise a ruckus. And if I lose the battle, well, this place won't be worth hanging around anymore, so I'll just leave. I'm serious.

3

Wow, another lightning blast. I'm feeling ~~godlike~~ atheistic powers flowing through my fingers!

Sonic The Hedgehog

Haha

Two posts ironic to each other

Vitaly

> It's not merely supernatural which has a connotation of being non-existent, like ghosts.

simchona

@Robusto Then roll the edit back.

ΜετάEd

@Robusto I agree with simchona on that point. The comment was irrelevant to the question. He might as well have expressed his opinion of rice pudding; while unlikely to cause offense, that would cause equal amounts of confusion.

Robusto

9:52 PM

@simchona How does removing "God" make the question more relevant?

Vitaly

Surely there are plenty of people on the Web who would find the insinuation that ghosts don't exist offensive.

Or does the toe-walking only apply to Abrahamic religions?

Sonic The Hedgehog

@sim And roll back and forth, and roll back and forth...

tchrist

Sim did the right thing. I found that it made me uneasy, and I'm as much of a flaming atheist as Rob is. It made me uneasy because it seemed designed to push people’s buttons. It had nothing to do with the question.

simchona

@Robusto The line was irrelevant--one can substitute something else. God was not a necessary part of the line. And I'm agnostic myself.

Sonic The Hedgehog

I'm flaming theist. XD Haha

ΜετάEd

9:54 PM

@Robusto And this I totally agree with. This is why I object to the rationale given by Luke for the edit. He thinks his annoyance is enough to justify an edit: no. There may be community standards which apply; but, his own personal standards are not enough. Right edit, wrong reason.

Robusto

@simchona No, answer the question. Did substituting "ghosts" make the question more relevant?

Gigili

@Robusto Nor for you.

Robusto

@Gigili Exactly my point, if we're still talking about one person editing another's post.

tchrist

@SonicTheHedgehog The red god will have his, sweet girl, and only death may pay for life. –Jaquen H’Ghar, a really flaming theist

simchona

@Robusto No. But it didn't hurt the post.

Sonic The Hedgehog

9:55 PM

@Rob Alright, than you substitute to it more relevantly

Robusto

@simchona That is what is irrelevant.

Sonic The Hedgehog

@tchrist Whoa.

tchrist

@SonicTheHedgehog Game of Thrones quote.

simchona

@Robusto If someone had said that homosexuals were supernatural and didn't really exist by nature but instead by choice, it would have had a million flags thrown at it.

3

ΜετάEd

All right, I have to run now. I've spent my two cents anyway.

I'll think about what to say on the meta post.

simchona

9:57 PM

What would you have done in that case, @Robusto? Let it stand?

Robusto

I don't see what the point is in "tolerating" a user's presence but altering his speech to make it more "comfortable" to certain belief-systems. Why not just change everything he says that we don't like?

@simchona If he is just trying to be an asshole, boot him or delete the post. But don't try to sanitize assholiness for the community.

JSBձոգչ

i'm on simchona's side here

simchona

@Robusto So you're saying that because EC said this, he should be treated differently?

I think that EC has done cruddy things, but the question itself was interesting.

Robusto

@simchona How do you get that from what I said?

tchrist

Reasonable people can reach different conclusions from each other.

JSBձոգչ

10:00 PM

a gratuitous use of an offensive or controversial statement in an example sentence is no use to anyone

Matt Эллен

@Robusto because if the post is good enough it will stand without the arseholiness.

JSBձոգչ

and we're better off leaving it out just to avoid the flak it'll draw

Robusto

Wow. Just ... wow.

simchona

@Robusto Because you seemed to be referring to him in specific. I apologize if that isn't what you meant.

Vitaly

@tchrist What is your definition of reasonable?

simchona

10:03 PM

@Robusto I want to give him a chance to show whether he's an asshole, or just threw his opinion in there. If he edits it back, then he's probably an asshole. If not, let it be.

Matt Эллен

@Robusto I wouldn't have edited the post, but this place isn't for anyone it's for everyone.

Vitaly

@MattЭллен Everyone, including Evan Carroll?

Robusto

@simchona Basically you're trying to neuter the cat to suit your needs. The thing is, this cat won't stay neutered.

simchona

@Robusto Then the post can be locked or deleted.

Matt Эллен

@Vitaly right

simchona

10:04 PM

But it hasn't gotten to that point, yet.

Matt Эллен

with caveats and such

simchona

I am willing to give the post a chance.

Matt Эллен

like, we don't allow people who break the rules

tchrist

@Vitaly Aumann’s Agreement Theorem does not apply, because it posits equal posteriors — whereas in EC’s case, we clearly have a much larger posterior than in Luke’s.

Robusto

@tchrist I was wondering when someone was going to make that joke, and whether it would immediately be elevated to star status.

Vitaly

10:06 PM

You would wonder.

Feb 23 at 19:11, by Robusto

@Vitaly I like the part where it says Bayesian rationalists have intimate knowledge of each other's posteriors.

Robusto

@simchona Clearly not. If you have to modify it, you've already taken action to suppress his expression. You can't have it both ways.

@Vitaly I knew you were going to bring that up.

simchona

@Robusto I modified the post, I didn't delete it. You sound like you want it to be locked down, deleted, and thrown away. I think there's a decent nugget of validity with which the question can be allowed to stand.

Robusto

@simchona No, you miss my point. I am saying either delete it or let it stand as written.

simchona

@Robusto Why is it one or the other?

Robusto

You have a right to delete it if it's offensive. What you don't have is the right to put words in other people's mouths.

simchona

10:08 PM

What is editing for, if posts should either be embraced whole-heartedly, or deleted?

tchrist

We edit postings all the time to change their words.

simchona

@Robusto We didn't put words in his mouth. We took out something that, to some, made the post offensive.

tchrist

It isn’t all about the curly quotes.

Matt Эллен

@Robusto well, we sorta do, in the terms of service...

Robusto

@simchona If someone makes a typo, or falls into a grammatical difficulty, etc. Not to fundamentally change their words to words we happen to like better.

simchona

10:09 PM

@Robusto I don't think we're making any progress with this.

Matt Эллен

The founders even encourage editing questions to be something else if it improves the audience that will be helped

5

Robusto

We're making progress. Certain views about freedom of speech are becoming clearer.

@MattЭллен Really? You're making the "founders" argument? OK, define "will be helped," if you can.

tchrist

@Robusto What would you see done, now? Vote to close and delete? Lock? Flag?

simchona

@Robusto This is a private website. There will be things done to make something more sanitized to be in line with "being nice"

@Robusto Don't turn this into a civil rights issue.

Robusto

@tchrist I don't particularly care if it stays or goes. But I find introducing the idea of sanitizing posts utterly offensive.

Matt Эллен

10:12 PM

@Robusto well, without ", like God" the question wouldn't have offended anyone, except for the fact that it's been edited out. With ", like God" it's bound to offend people. Those people might then disregard what might have been useful to them.

simchona

@Robusto But posts don't belong to an individual. They belong, ostensibly, to the community. If sanitizing a post enables it to help more people, then it's a valid thing to do.

Robusto

@MattЭллен So we must root out anything that might be offensive to any religion or nationality?

tchrist

@Robusto I already lost that battle when they edited out f*** and s*** and c*** from the t**les.

simchona

@tchrist You mean f***, s*** and c***

Robusto

Speak louder, I cunt hear you.

Matt Эллен

10:14 PM

@Robusto not at all. Only oil squeaky wheels is my motto.

simchona

@MattЭллен I agree. Someone spoke up, so the post was edited. We don't need to go through all the old posts on a witch hunt.

Sonic The Hedgehog

Now now.

Robusto

@MattЭллен So if, say, a Mormon complains about something I write, you think whatever I said to offend him should be removed?

Sonic The Hedgehog

Arguing over religion usually helps nobody.

simchona

19

Q: A SWAT team of nice

As the summer of love discussion has shown, there is much discussion about civility on Stack Overflow. One particularly important sub-set of the issue is what is called "accidental rudeness" - seasoned SO users pointing out newbie mistakes in a curt way bordering the rude. That is often understan...

feature-request etiquette summer-of-love

Robusto

10:15 PM

@SonicTheHedgehog Exactly. Which is why I would leave it the fuck alone.

tchrist

@Robusto There are two parses on that. Which did you intend?

Robusto

@simchona Chapter and verse. Nice.

Sonic The Hedgehog

@Rob But you are insisting over this argument.

Matt Эллен

@Robusto I don't know. You're easier to chat with than Evan Caroll, so I'd probably discuss it with you.

Luke

@Robusto If it is unnecessary to the post, yes. It will only stir up argument.

tchrist

10:16 PM

@Robusto Did you say something in order that your Mormon might be offended, or did you say something which happened to offend him?

Robusto

25 mins ago, by Robusto

@SonicTheHedgehog If a mod starts editing my posts to remove imaginary offensive material, I will raise a ruckus. And if I lose the battle, well, this place won't be worth hanging around anymore, so I'll just leave. I'm serious.

QED.

simchona

@Robusto It's not imaginary if someone complains.

Robusto

My final word. Dinner. Ta.

Matt Эллен

CU, have a good one!

Sonic The Hedgehog

@Rob But you are clearly not arguing this because of that reason.

You have other reasons, as well.

tchrist

10:17 PM

His blood sugar is low.

Let him go.

simchona

I think we all need a break.

Vitaly

So... Does this mean the edit is going to be reverted if I complain on the Meta that I find editing it out offensive?

tchrist

I miss the happy stars. Now we have angry stars.

Vitaly

Or, again, does this only work in favor of Abrahamic religions?

Matt Эллен

@Vitaly possibly - but you play by Crocker's rules

Luke

10:19 PM

I'm going to catch a bite. Goodbye

Vitaly

@MattЭллен I could delete that from my profile for such a glorious occasion.

tchrist

Good night, Luke.

simchona

@Vitaly If someone made a remark about Hindi wedding traditions being oppressive in a question about using that word in context, I would find it offensive too.

Matt Эллен

@Vitaly I was only joking. I have no idea what would occur. Your views are equally valid.

tchrist

If Denis is reading Wodehouse, we’re going to have a lot more Bertie questions where that one came from.

Sonic The Hedgehog

10:21 PM

@Vitaly raises eyebrows

Gigili

@Luke Good night. Thank you for the edit.

tchrist

Try Wicca or Scientology, both of which were made up out of thin air.

ponders happy stars

Vitaly

I'm not a 10K user and can't see the flags, so somebody please let me know when @simchona flags the message above.

simchona

@Vitaly I'm not sure if you're joking or seriously taking a swipe

tchrist

10kers can’t backtrace flags to flaggers.

Sonic The Hedgehog

10:25 PM

@tchrist then who can?

tchrist

Employees.

Sonic The Hedgehog

Ah, Employees.

tchrist

And they very nearly never do.

Vitaly

@simchona I am dead serious. By your professed standards, the claim that Scientology and Wicca were made up out of thin air is offensive.

Sonic The Hedgehog

The only position higher than Mods, I presume?

tchrist

10:26 PM

@SonicTheHedgehog As it were.

Sonic The Hedgehog

@vitaly you have a lot to learn about religion.

First off, we do not care about any religion but our own.

Vitaly

6 mins ago, by simchona

@Vitaly If someone made a remark about Hindi wedding traditions being oppressive in a question about using that word in context, I would find it offensive too.

tchrist

No good can come of this.

Pwease.

simchona

14 mins ago, by simchona

@Robusto But posts don't belong to an individual. They belong, ostensibly, to the community. If sanitizing a post enables it to help more people, then it's a valid thing to do.

Sonic The Hedgehog

Well, at least for me.

Tchrist is also right.

We should talk about...

drumroll please.

Kittens.

Vitaly

10:28 PM

@simchona The chat is arguably a place which is supposed to help people, too; or else private chatrooms wouldn't have been prohibited for non-mods.

Sonic The Hedgehog

simchona

@SonicTheHedgehog You found me!

Sonic The Hedgehog

simchona

@Vitaly Then someone can flag your comment as offensive. I never said I was going to go around flagging everything.

Sonic The Hedgehog

simchona

10:29 PM

14 mins ago, by simchona

@MattЭллен I agree. Someone spoke up, so the post was edited. We don't need to go through all the old posts on a witch hunt.

Vitaly

Jun 27 '11 at 17:51, by Vitaly

Sonic The Hedgehog

tchrist

♬ This parTICularly RAPid
♬ uninTELLigible PATTer
♬ isn't GENerally HEARD
♬ and if i’TIS it doesn't MATTer.

Gigili

Is this Sonic new here?

Sonic The Hedgehog

@Vitaly ...you monster.

Matt Эллен

10:30 PM

hehehehe, big moustachioed spider

simchona

@Gigili No, he used to be around more

Sonic The Hedgehog

@Gigili I got my yearling badge.

Oh

Gigili

Umm.

Sonic The Hedgehog

Umm what.

Vitaly

Feb 22 at 14:23, by Vitaly

Sonic The Hedgehog

10:31 PM

Vitaly

On that note, good night!

Matt Эллен

CU!

tchrist

Oh

my

word

!

simchona

I'm just going to stare at the kitten. I like kittens.

Sonic The Hedgehog

Weird.

Let me try that again.

Ah.

There we go.

simchona

10:35 PM

So. How's everyone's Saturdays going.

Sonic The Hedgehog

Got my Dragonslayer class.

Matt Эллен

It's nearly over for me, alas

simchona

@SonicTheHedgehog Congrats!

@MattЭллен Not so congrats.

Matt Эллен

:D

Sonic The Hedgehog

Unfortunately, its geared toward dragon-killings.

simchona

10:36 PM

@SonicTheHedgehog I find that offensive towards dragons. Imma flag that.

Sonic The Hedgehog

Fortunately, it has highest DPS in the game.

simchona

DPS?

Distinct Parse Structure?

Sonic The Hedgehog

It's unfortunate because there is not many dragons in this game.

simchona

Daring Parallel Segment?

Sonic The Hedgehog

@Sim Damage Per Second.

simchona

10:37 PM

Close enough.

Sonic The Hedgehog

Same as Berserker, but I like the term Dragonslayer better.

I like killing dragons... even though my Yu-Gi-Oh deck was full of Dragons.

Whaddya gonna do about it?

Flagging it won't stop me from obliterating.

simchona

Now I'm so confused! Do I flag? Not flag?

runs in circles

Sonic The Hedgehog

laughs maniacally

Gigili

I flagged you as so confused.

Sonic The Hedgehog

@Gigili I think you mean pegged.

Gigili

10:41 PM

I mean what I said.

Sonic The Hedgehog

Might want to think otherwise.

Currently my bot is using my Slayer to trash Creeper Parodies in my game.

Gigili

Umm.

Sonic The Hedgehog

Oh, and Camels. Don't forget about Camels.

user19161

Yo @sonic! How's the kimchi?

Sonic The Hedgehog

@Jasper Not bad; but I ate Sardines for dinner.

With rice.

user19161

10:44 PM

@SonicTheHedgehog I find most of the kittens posted in this chat ordinary. But this one is just extraordinary!

Sonic The Hedgehog

Which one?

Nobody minds reposts if it's kittens.

user19161

The one above.

Sonic The Hedgehog

Ah.

They are so cute that I sometimes wonder if they were photoshopped.

I leveled up!

Level 23...

Matt Эллен

congrats!

Sonic The Hedgehog

Pats his bot passionately

user19161

10:46 PM

Actually your sonic is quite cute too!

user19161

I imagine you look like sonic, @sonic!

tchrist

It’s because of the optics. It’s taken very close up, with a comparatively wide lens, so there are perspective effects that seem to enlarge the face and eyes, making it more appealing. The comparatively large aperture also helps to narrow the depth of field to make the eyes jump out at you. In all, it’s designed to tug at your heart-strings. And does.

Sonic The Hedgehog

@Jasper heh. Not likely...

user19161

@tchrist Sounds like a pro!

Sonic The Hedgehog

We should make a Harp out of Dragon Heartstrings.

tchrist

10:48 PM

I’m merely a good impersonator of people who know what they’re talking about.

Sonic The Hedgehog

@tchrist than you are good at impersonating.

Better to be good at something rather than nothing.