@aaamos Don't worry about it, these things happen all the time.

Yeah. You could see it in a different light tomorrow. And the comments can be purged.

@ΜετάEd I see very little that could be a clue.

No physical clues.

@Cerberus Mitch did.

@Cerberus and everyone: Thanks. Night all, and thanks for the... uh, "induction" into the intricacies of SE chat ;-)

I'll remove my last comment in a sec, that was probably a bit of a knee-jerk reaction.

@ΜετάEd The part in the north-east resembles the border between Canada and the USA.

But I wouldn't know about premodern borders.

@aaamos Night!

Actually I gotta run as well. Lators.

@aaamos First, all native speakers map adopted foreign words into their own phoneme set; this is inevitable. English cannot begin a word, or indeed a syllable, with /ʃt/ — compounds like fishtail and ashtray get the pair assigned to separate syllables. So it is perfectly natural and expected for that to be remapped to the native st instead. And second, bastardisation is a word loaded with nasty connotation.

Florida is a bit too blocky to be Florida.

Considering how detailed the map is.

@tchrist I'm fine with bastardisation.

@Cerberus I’m not.

@Cerberus It is spelled wrong.

Also, adaptation is the correct term.

Nah-uh!

FTFç.

@Cerberus Yeah, it's not a bad map.

@ΜετάEd So that appendix is not Florida, huh?

You cannot expect people to say things in language X which language X does not permit.

They hadn't bought/conquered that yet?

@Cerberus If I start answering direct questions about what the map overlaps, that will make it a whole lot easier to guess. Do you want to go that way?

@tchrist You can, under certain circumstances. But I don't feel that the ʃ should be required when pronouncing Einstein auf English.

@Cerberus Some people seem to, though.

I don't understand that.

@ΜετάEd I personally do, but only because I wouldn't stand a chance otherwise—so perhaps we should let Mitch proceed first.

@tchrist For me, it also depends on my mood.

Tolerance comes and goes.

Pronouncing hamburger the English way in Dutch sounds silly.

I don't feel it is required to pronounce foreign names the way the foreigner pronounces them. That's like requiring everyone to use Deutchland instead of the four or five other names used elsewhere.

But with other words it can depend on mood and context.

@ΜετάEd It depends.

In expressions, for example, I feel that the requirements are higher.

Unless one's pronunciation is ironic.

In some situations it is, let's say, polite. But never required. A name for a thing will be different from language to language. It's like the French. They have a different word for everything.

They do use Manhattan.

The name, in English, for the German physicist of renown, is Einstein, pronounced with an "st".

But it is prononounced so horribly wrong that you can't understand it.

Mah-nah-tã.

I mean, come on. What are the names of the ancient Greek philosophers, in English? Do any of them accurately reproduce the ancient (or even modern) Greek pronunciations?

Stress on the last syllable.

@ΜετάEd I don't think anyone feels that every foreign word or name should always be pronounced the correct foreign way.

@Cerberus I don’t hear many people pronouncing Sevilla as [s̺e̞ˈβ̞iɟ͡ʝa̠] when speaking in English, and I can live with that. Not one of those consonants occurs in English, whether as phonemes or as allophones. So of course people just map it to whatever they variously think is closest. What would you have them do?

The discussion is just about when it is and is not required, and when it is even inadvisable.

cries

@ΜετάEd What? They didn't speak English? Like the Bible?

@tchrist However, there are degrees in closeless: y is closer than l to the Spanish "ll" in Sevilla. The debate is usually about how close one ought to get under which circumstances.

@cornbreadninja Oh...you mean that was chile? Oh right..yes of course, it looked just like Chile. my eyes were blurry from reading text.

So an Englishman could say Sebeeya.

For example.

yes.

In Dutch, Chile is Chili, and it is pronounced /ʃili/.

Chile, Chili, Chilly.

@tchrist also, orthography gets in the way too.

Pronouncing it as in Spanish would sound horribly snobbish in Dutch.

Not in a good way.

Good snobbery is fine, though usually optional.

@Cerberus that works that way for anything.

@Mitch For many geographical names, yes; for people, not exactly.

I can appreciate someone pronouncing, say, Cervantes the Spanish way in Dutch or English.

It is snobbish in a fun way.

Then there are also rules about the pronunciation of foreign names that are based neither on the foreign name nor on the receiving language.

@Cerberus You dwell too much on the ‹ll› in Sevilla. Everything else is a problem too, except for the [i]. What about the [β̞] approximant, which English doesn’t have? What about the apical [s̺], which English doesn’t have? What about the unreduced unstressed [a̠] which English doesn’t have? What about the unreduced and undiphthonged unstressed [e̞], which English doesn’t have?

So it's complicated.

@ΜετάEd New Spain? (If the part of north america above Mexico owned by Spain before the Louisiana purchase (or sale) to the US might be called that)

@tchrist As I said, one can approach the Spanish pronunciation more or less closely. It is a matter of degree.

Usually debates are not about the extremes.

@Cerberus that's where I think orthography comes in. Why would you pronounce Einstein with 'sh' when it's spelled with an 's'?

At least not about the foreign extreme.

@Mitch Orthography is what one extreme (the one of the receiving language) is based on, certainly.

People read it first.

And pronounce it based on how those letter combinations are most frequently pronounced in their own language, if they don't know the foreign language at all, or are lazy.

Or just cause.

egzacly

Egzekli.

Eggsacklee.

@Cerberus The standard English [səˈvɪɫ] for Sevilla bears little enough resemblance to [s̺e̞ˈβ̞iɟ͡ʝa̠], but noöne ever seems to complain. I don’t understand the Einstein gripe.

@tchrist U+202E is my new favourite unicode character.

@tchrist I agree.

Although comparing those two doesn't prove much.

@Mahnax Not the other way around?

@Mitch Verily.

I use LRE to spoof SE all the time.

By the way, I think English pronunciation is based on its French spelling.

@Cerberus All the worse, then. :)

@tchrist ‮U+202E is my new favourite unicode character.

@Mitch Nope.

But I need to leave. ‮Bye.

@Mahnax RLE and RLO do subtly different things. Investigate later.

I wonder if there was an accepted name for the Spanish territories at that time.

@Mahnax Be sure to disable that in your Mac "Windows Explorer".

Your file explorer.

@Cerberus "Finder" used to be the term.

In order to block certain viruses that abuse it.

@ΜετάEd Ah.

@ΜετάEd How about the Spanish Main?

@ΜετάEd Mexico.

@Cerberus You could tell me anything. Anyway this was not a Spanish territory.

The Spanish Main was all the mainland in the Spanish Americas.

@ΜετάEd Hmm...

macbook# perl5.16.0 -E 'say "\N{RLO}1 < 5 < 10"'
                            ‮1 < 5 < 10
macbook# perl5.16.0 -E 'say "\N{RLE}1 < 5 < 10"'
‫1 < 5 < 10

@Cerberus You realize the Spanish Main is about the American mainland, not its islands, don't you?

In the unAmerican sense of that word.

Chat-search finds only 58 matches for balrog and 74 matches for balrogs. How lame is that? The dingledorks are imposing word boundaries on our searches! Life is ridiculous!!

@tchrist Is it case-sensitive?

@MattЭллен did you initiate the blog powwow?

New Spain was a viceroyalty comprising the north-American and east-Asian Spanish possessions.

@tchrist balrog* returns 134 results.

So neither term is exactly what we want.

@ΜετάEd forgets line of reasoning involving all Spanish things

the little doohickey at the bottom looks like one from present day Columbia

@ΜετάEd That would be Tchrist's results combined, plus his line itself.

No balroggery or balroggish reported?

@cornbreadninja No, it is not case-sensitive. It uses full Unicode casefolding, in fact, so one codepoint can map to more than one in a different casing.

Central African Republic...in 1720.

@ΜετάEd what of * alrog *?

@Mitch Hmm good one, yes.

Or Wisconsin. Kinda the same thing.

But it can't be part of Columbia, can it?

@cornbreadninja I'll leave that as an exercise.

the Incan Empire was kinda not around by then

@ΜετάEd crap.

@ΜετάEd 137. Stop messing with my numbers! :)

Schleisien (Silesia)

that darn straightline!

It finds hidden ones, too.

Those are the ones to watch out for.

The hidden ones.

and the nose on the dude looking to the left.

Hidden under the mountains, in Moria?

Well ... ping me, anyone, if you have another guess.

@ΜετάEd how about we ping you for the answer?

or another hint.

I don't feel I could get any closer without cheating, i.e. looking at maps.

which continent...yes, I went there.

And even then...

it is hand drawn.

I just looked at Columbia, just to be sure. Even though it couldn't be Columbia.

with a mouse.

I hope it is.

cheater.

That's me.

The thing is, I don't have any historical borders memorized in such detail.

And there is no telling what the coast lines are.

If any.

@ΜετάEd Anything but Mexico. Am I closer?

@cornbreadninja verily

@tchrist how do I delete UNIX mail?

reading man mail

oh oh oh wait a minute mr man mail

@MattЭллен :D

is there a letter, a letter for me

@tchrist nm

@Mitch New World.

I think I <3 UNIX.

@MattЭллен Can’t, sorry. Must run to hospital, quick. Family emergency. No ETA.

@tchrist Shit.

OK, no worry! I hope everything goes OK

:|

I speak UNIX.

@ΜετάEd but do you speak jive?

@cornbreadninja Heh.

@Cerberus I could tell you.

@ΜετάEd did anyone ever guess your map?

Oh I see it's still going

@MattЭллен Not yet.

South Korea

@Cerberus The right half of the bottom border, crescent shaped, is coastline. Also, a few bits of the right half of the top border are coastline.

@ΜετάEd so... could I potentially get the raw chat datas somewhere and grep it for * alrog *?

@cornbreadninja I don't know the pattern language of the search box. balrog* I discovered by trial.

@ΜετάEd it disliked double wildcards.

@ΜετάEd is the map of a whole country?

AFK nomtiem

@cornbreadninja The trailing * is the only thing I find that works.

So it supports heading.

@MattЭллен It is the map of a territory.

It was never sovereign.

Howdy @Theta30

hi

$grep 'alrog' chat

spalrog

malrog

obamalrog

:D

The balrog for change

cornbalrog

@MattЭллен yes we can fly

on wings of shadow!

You hear all sorts of rumours about Obamalrog - I heard he's an Elf

@MattЭллен I heard he's not a native of Mordor!

They say he didn't fight Gandalf at all, they had a chat about how to kill our freedoms with terrorism

Sometimes it takes two and a half years for your brilliance to be recognized, but it's nice when that finally happens.

good work solder

@MattЭллен makes connection

glad I lead you in the right direction

SFF.SE: Do Balrogs Have Wings?

lol

@MattЭллен you mean led

@ΜετάEd good show.

That is a Balrog

So I'm looking at my PuTTY log, and it appears that Nortonn wrote it.

=~=~=~=~=~= PuTTY log 2012.08.23 11:57:06 =~=~=~=~=~=

@Jez it was a pun on solder

ah

@MattЭллен How did you like the math chat room?

@skullpatrol it was fine until the other Matt turned up, then it was annoying :D

@ΜετάEd d'you use PuTTY? What is a good program to open logs so that all the chars are preserved and don't become boxen?

@cornbreadninja I don't use PuTTY.

@cornbreadninja Were there supposed to be boxen here?

@ΜετάEd Do you know of something else that logs?

@ΜετάEd no, just =~=~=~

I seem to remember that xterm logs.

Yes, a Ctrl+LeftButton will display the "log to file" option, if it's been compiled into your xterm.

@ΜετάEd ima review my PuTTY logging opshuns.

@ЯegDwight So nobody can "ping" you now without a backwards "R" keyboard ;-)

oh, maybe it's because I chose 'all session output' rather than 'printable session output'

@skullpatrol Only Яussians can ping me now. Or TETЯISAE'S.

What are "Balrogs"?

That this room has 89% more of.

That is so faux Cyrillic.

@Robusto actually, that's proper Cyrillic. Proudly manufactured by a natural born Russian on a natural born Russian keyboard.

@ЯegDwight But the rest of the name doesn't work. So ... faux.

@Robusto НОУ Ю!

Also, you are using ya to make an "R" sound: fee fie faux fum.

Who said that? My name is actually pronounced Yaeg Dwight, in point of fact.

@ЯegDwight Baba Yaga?

Эxactement.

Then where is your chicken-legged hut? All I see are Yellow Brick Roadz.

The hut is at the end of the road. Haven't you read the book?

They made it into a book?

Well they needed something to base a movie on.

That shows remarkable foreskin foresight for a movie production.

Яemarkable.

Я, Я, Я, Я, weiss nicht wie gut ich dir bin.

Follow the Яllow brick road!

@skullpatrol Really?

You must be one of them there barbarians.

The face with all the draining future left blank. . . Those smug
saints, whether of church or Stalin, Can get off the back of
my people, and stay off. Somebody is supposed to be fighting
for somebody. . . And Lenin is terribly silent, terribly silent
and dead.

@skullpatrol - did I invite you to the wrong room? I was meant to invite you to the blog room

hugs UNIX

unhugs IX

I am raging over ineffective minecraft mods.

Oh. People still play that?

facepalms

Why use Minecraft if you can have the real thing?

...what?

no

Hell no

It will never be like the virtual one.

...Wait, whats with balrog?

why is every starred chat sentences contain balrogs???

Have you checked the room's description?

wth?

I leave for few days

and this happens.

I see you've been absent for quite some time. Like, days.

Yes.

Oh crap you're faster.

???

You're typing faster. And succincterer.

Why don't you just talk to yourself?

I can't keep up with the kids these days.

...I already tried.

I can't think with my eyes closed; however I can imagine million things while my eyes are opened.

I just need to stare at a blank space.

If I close my eyes, I just can't think.

So weird. -_-

I'll just leave the Kenneth Patchen poem to float in this sea of froth. Bye.

Who started this Balrog mess anyhow?

J R R Tolkien

Nono, in here.

Why is people obsessed with Balrogs in here???

it's a mystery

In here of all places!

@Kit, you gotta help me!

Why is this place filled with Balrogs???

Why???!

Pedantry.

You'll be fine.

how are you @Kit?

Tired. These boys can really wear a girl out.

Wow. That came out all wrong.

nah. I get what you mean

@Kit Wait, what came out wrong?

I see nothing wrong with it.

Well, that's a relief.

So confused -_-

How did we end up on balrogs again?

Wait, I just noticed that you have blue name color.

One of the perks of being a mod?

I need blue name color.

I should have ran for the election.

Yes, blue with a diamond.

...And I am bashing my head over minecraft mod conflicts. Gahhhhhhhhhhh

Why can't this be compatible with that???

I need both!

Thank God for Lego Star Wars.

Oh frack.

I missed two meetings today?

Sorry @Matt.

it's cool. I figured you were busy with work etc.

...I don't get it, those two mods are clearly in the mod folder

it was just a catchup

but I don't see them...

ಠ_ಠ

@MattЭллен How did it go? I have been running errands and playing at the park with the boys today.

@KitFox yeah, people came in dribs and drabs, but I got some feed back. Things seem to be progressing acceptably.

Excellent. Are you going to be ready for a relaunch in September, you think?

@SonicTheHedgehog you from NJ? Long Island?

@ЯegDwight Before I answer, are you a stalker?

@KitFox yes. there are 2 articles ready to go, and I just need to hear from Mahnax about his and we're set for 6 weeks.

mines on its way, cornbread ninja's is coming a long and Luke seems to be working hard, so it's looking good

@SonicTheHedgehog no. Also, I could just look up on your profile I guess. And as a mod I have your email address and all.

I just like to guess where people are from based on the accent in their writing.

I already guessed a Chinese guy correctly.

And a Russian.

@Reg Wait, you guess where people came from based on how they write?

Well it's not like I guess it based on them saying "Hello".

What was your first guess?

About you now?

Yeah

New Jersey or Long Island. Or US Northeast more generally.

that's pretty far off, based on what i know

You can guess yourself. Leave my guesses to me.

Yeah, I live in New Jersey.

Oh crap I forgot about the TL. BRB.

You can be part of /b/ detective team with that kind of talent.

... nothing of interest.

@SonicTheHedgehog haha no way.

You pulling my leg now?

New Jersey, Bergen.

Then it's a bingo. Three out of three.

That I can remember.

Not often that I can play this game.

Alright, Alright! Head to RegDwight and be amazed!

Indeed indeed indeed, do.

Have your location guessed correctly like a GPS!

@JSBձոգչ so what was that all about?

Reg! Reg! Guess where I live!

You can't always be guessing Romania.

@MattЭллен seeing how you call me Reg and not Яeg, you must be from the UK.

@SonicTheHedgehog what's your exit?

@ЯegDwight OMG, you're spot on!

@cornbread ...whats a exit?

I'm on a roll, babey!

Okay actually some interesting stuff in the TL now. Hope they'll turn it into a blog post.

@SonicTheHedgehog I doubt your Jerseyness.

@cornbread I have been only living there for 6 years now.

And I am native Korean by default.

@SonicTheHedgehog OIC! I take it back.

@SonicTheHedgehog as in exit number off of the highway, I guess namely the Garden State Parkway.

It was my understanding that this is something Jerseyers ask of each other.

You want to be my sidekick, @cornbalrog? Together we mine for OVER 9000 informations!

@ЯegDwight !!!!!eleventy!

@Matt Who was the visitor?

aaamos

or aaaamos

...Oh.

just wanted help cleaning up his answer

he asked for mods, so I summoned them

I need to go get something for breakfast, for my bread has gone mouldy. BBL.

I see. And he got some help?

OK, later.

@MattЭллен drat!