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06:36
I am going to go craaaazy.
Loooo! Looo!
I rest my case.
"Going"? Sounds more like you need the past tene there
Thank you, kind sir.
I've not seen you here before.
Sorry, driveby snarky comment. :)
I just wandered in here, I don't normally hang around EL&U (too scary for me)
Aye, snarks be snarkin'.
@SimonRigharts We are quite intimidating.
But I can definitely empathise with going crazy
06:40
Oh, you have a job too?
Sadly yes.
Ugh, jobs.
spent six hours today trying to make text from one database go into another database, preferably without mangling it
I spent six hours bowing to the will of an evil overlord today.
At a fast food restaurant to boot.
(the problem was the encoding, it was coming out of the first database in UTF-16, and the second database only accepted UTF-8) -- shorter version is that it looked good in the first databased, but was utterly mangled in the second
06:42
Darn encoding.
... ouch. I've never worked in fast food and have no desire to
I always make .html files in Unicode on Mac and then they open all funny in Windows.
@SimonRigharts Well, when one is a teenager, there are few options.
that might also be an endian-ness thing. see if your .html file editor has an option to save a "byte order marker" or something
(sorry I learned way too much about text file storage today)
When I save it in UTF-8 all is well.
That works too (UTF-8 is independent of byte order)
I could explain it but my brain hurts just thinking about it
06:48
I don't wanna hear it anyways…
I'm leaving now, bye.
07:31
Did you fix your UTF-8 / UTF-16 issue in the end, @Simon?
Eventually, yeah
(the problem wasn't converting from UTF-16 to UTF-8, it was doing it automatically. iconv to the rescue!)
good work. Those things can be curly.
And you can NEVER learn too much about text file storage :-)
"Curly" is a nice way to put it. I was running out of swearwords by mid-afternoon
But next time you encounter such a problem, you'll solve it quickly, right?
I'm actually a DBA by trade, although a programmer/software developer by training
Even better, when this problem crops up again for someone else I can turn around to them and go "Just use iconv!" and look like a genius
07:39
I shall have to remember that myself. I don't think I've used iconv.
Even better, I know it's going to crop up soon, because we have a project in the pipeline to convert everything from varchar/ASCII to unicode
which means one of our database systems only speaking UTF-16 and another one only speaking UTF-8 is going to be a major pain in the neck for us :(
Oh well, it'll keep me gainfully (cough) employed for a while at least
Oh wow. You're in Wellington too?
(just looked at your usercard on SO - my card doesn't mention it, but I'm in Wellington too)
Umm, yeah. Your name is unfamiliar to me though.
Not surprising, I only moved up here a few months ago
YOu work for NZQA? I used to work for NZQA.
Wait where did I say that? But yes I do
and here I was going to say there's probably only 2-3 degrees of seperation between us
07:49
From Feb 2005 till Oct 2006, I was in the web development team, with people like Paul Tuckey and Adrian Pronk.
really is a small world
PT just left, he's taking like three months holiday before looking for a new job
I understand NZQA has changed a lot though since I left.
PT often leaves then comes back.
Yeah I've heard that. Not like he'll struggle to find a job anyway
I don't suppose you guys are still using the induction manual that I wrote?
I'm not sure - I can find out
I'm actually part of the systems team, I'm not a developer
07:51
Yeah, you said that. Is Adam Green still the team leader of your lot?
Nope he left early last year
not sure where he's off to now
So who's still there that I'm likely to know?
(I arrived up here after he left, I only started about six months ago)
Hmm, not sure. On the DB side, both Mona & Lisa have been around for a while
apps - maybe Rebecca and Tom? I'm pretty sure Mike and Emman (the two senior platform/network guys) have been around for years
Don't think I know Mona, Lisa or Tom. I guess 5-6 years is a long time; and NZQA is kind of known for its frequent restructurings. I definitely know Mike, Rebecca and Emman.
I see Mike on the train occasionally, but I'm not sure whether he recognises me. I never talk to him.
any of those names ring bells? On the development side, how about Paul Kane, John Grantham (he's not officially here any more, he's on a special contract), Simon Brown & Nathan Smith?
07:57
I know John G and Simon B, definitely. Not Nathan. And I'm not sure about Paul Kane; the name rings a bell, but I can't put a face to it.
you'd probably recognise him if you see him
Maybe. So where did you move here from?
Dunedin - I was doing IT work for a small healthcare place down there
Dunedin's nice for most of the year.
but the small-worldedness of it was getting to me (read: the IT job market down there is pretty much dead), so I took a punt on moving
07:59
But the first time I went there was Queens Birthday weekend, and it snowed quite heavily; which was a shock for this Wellingtonian.
I think Wellington is the best place in the southern hemisphere for IT jobs.
Dunedin's nice when it's not raining, snowing, blowing a howling gale or just greyly overcast. Which is approximately 350 days a year.
So I moved to Wellington. Didn't help much on the weather front.
Yeah, it's a crappy summer we've just had, all right.
You all ready for the nasty weather tomorrow?
I should probably head to the supermarket and grab some more food
My son is supposed to be playing cricket in the morning. Don't think that's going to happen, somehow.
Heh. My boss is doing the Karapoti Classic tomorrow (50km mountainbike ride)
08:02
That's just insane!
That ought to be nice and messy.
I wouldn't do that even in good weather.
Which, the 50km ride, or doing it in a howling southerly and torrential rain?
They get enough signups for the full Classic they have to cap it at 1,000 entrants
Hard to believe.
There's a lot of crazy mountainbikers out there, seems like
08:05
Yes, Wellington seems to attract them. Must be our fantastic hills.
Hills are one thing Wellington's certainly not short of
That's what gives us our wind, I believe.
@Gigili - I thought you were going to change your picture?
@DavidWallace Is it that annoying? I will anyway.
08:10
Hey, @Simon, do you know whether PT is actually leaving town for his 3 months off, or sticking around?
@Gigili No, it's just that you said you were going to. Frankly, I think your picture is great, but you were concerned about the dumb questions it attracted.
@DavidWallace I ... don't know. I can find out if you're really curious
No, it's just that I may know of jobs that would suit him. Having recently been job-hunting myself and all.
There may be a vacancy on my new team, that I start on in a couple of weeks. And I'd really enjoy working with PT again.
Ah
No stealing our PT!
I might drop him an email
(Actually we probably can't afford him anymore)
08:13
Can you afford not to have him?
"He's worth any amount of money he'd be likely to ask for" isn't something that flies very well with either HR or Finance sadly. :(
It's true in this case though, PT is pretty goddamn awesome.
A prince among programmers and a marvel among men!
But yeah if I were you I'd do that
He's not likely to stay a free agent very long, so it'd probably pay to get in fast.
So, anyone else get burnt in the big recalculation?
Not me, actually - I don't have much SO rep, I generally loiter on dba.se
08:21
I think the plan is to do it on all sites, is it not?
It's been done on all sites according to the meta.so post
And it didn't change my rep on dba.se at all - although I was never hitting rep caps there anyway
I found that some questions that I had answered had been deleted, so I lost my upvote and acceptance points.
On two sites that I've noticed.
Ahh. I tend not to answer questions that are likely candidates for deletion - I guess that makes me an e-snob of sorts?
Actually, I lied - I lost ten rep on dba.se. Oh the horror!
I haven't done it yet, should I?
08:28
There's nothing you need to do, basically what they're saying is "Your reputation will now constantly be kept in sync"
(most notably, a mod deleting questions with upvoted answers of yours will cause your rep to drop after they do it)
And if a mod deletes questions with downvoted answers of yours, your rep will go up! Just to look on the bright side.
The bright side is very unlikely, honestly.
It's all an artificial game anyway
Yes, I find it just an idle curiosity. But I wonder about the people who take these things very seriously. Like Jon Skeet, who endeavours to increase his Stack Overflow rep by 200 every day.
I'm halfway surprised he doesn't get that just from upvotes on past answers
08:35
He's not THAT good!
Has he actually said he aims to get 200 rep a day?
Yes he has. I can try and find the link if you're interested.
I'm not that interested, just idly curious
I find it an odd thing to be so invested in, personally
1400 every week? wow....
@SimonRigharts Yes, that's how I feel.
08:42
I've also heard some high rep. accounts were traded.
You mean they're being used by someone other than the person who accumulated the reputation?
Bizarre that someone would pay money for a high rep account. But I suppose that's no different from Jon Skeet investing his time.
Yes, something like that
Why are you all here then, what makes you different from him (No negative intentions or anything, just curious)
That's probably the one thing a high rep is useful for, and more so for developers, it gives you something to point savvy employers at and say "these people think I know what I'm doing"
essentially crowd-sourcing an appeal to authority. :V
I am tired. A little sick - I haven't been to work for three days. Conversing here is as good a way of killing time as any other.
08:45
@SimonRigharts One of my lectures next year has over 15k points in Latex, quite impressive considering the smal site.
Ive been robbed, so spending time here, is as good as any other place.
Sorry to hear that, N3b.
Did they get anything major?
Is there a 200daily cap here?
@DavidWallace Just money, and the keys to my appartment.
So
Although not all reputation increases are covered by it, so you can get more than 200. I'm not sure what the exact rules are.
08:49
Skeet is overshooting by a longshot when he is getting 500 a day?
That's a bit odd. You're definitely limited to 200 from upvotes, but maybe the amount you get from acceptances is unlimited.
I've hit this limit myself on mathematics.se, getting 23 upvotes in a day for an answer, but only getting 200 rep for it.
pecculiar
If you look at the "time" view of his rep, there's a whole lot of upvotes for which he didn't get rep. And he has a huge amount of "accepts" each day.
"A maximum of 40 votes can be cast per user per day, however, to reach the maximum you must vote on at least 10 questions. You can earn a maximum of 200 reputation per day. Please note that votes for posts marked “community wiki” do not generate any reputation, while accepted answers and bounty awards are not subject to the daily reputation limit. "
But who cares about rep right=
Maybe he has an accomplice whom he upvotes, and who then asks questions and gives him the bounties.
09:03
It must be!
0
Q: Does anyone know of a markup language (XML) that represents English grammar rules?

Edward TanguaySome colleagues and I would like to put together a grammar compendium to teach English grammar and would like to record the rules and examples in XML so as to increase the kinds of ways it can be utilized. As with any XML, much of the work is defining the schema, what to leave out and what to le...

Anyone got any opinions on this question?
My mind boggles at trying to convert English grammar into XML. It sounds like a lifetime's work to me.
09:36
I think it might fit better at linguistics.se
I've asked in their chat, but no one is there.
09:47
Yeah, maybe. I'm not invested in the question at all. It just sounded interesting to me.
indeed!
I have no idea if it's possible
English grammar has a lot of recursion and irregularity, could you encode that in XML?
It also seems like an AI problem.
that's true. is ai.se in beta yet? ...
... in that a language (not necessarily English) is kind of a reflection of thought. So it would be similar to expressing thought processes in a computer language.
09:50
@MattЭллен I don't know. I haven't seen a beta of AI.
apparently AI didn't get enough activity in the beta, so it is closed
c'est la vie
maintenant il est mort
my vague recollection of my AI classes back at university is that English does have a regular grammar, but it's context-sensitive, and to quote, "a hard problem"
That said, university was a long time ago, so I may be misremembering.
yes indeed. very hard
09:53
If you were going to do this, you'd start with a language that has simpler grammar than English.
considering the number of servers Peter Norvig has at Google, to do their translations, incredibly hard
Like ... any other language.
Te Reo, anyone?
not heard of it until just now :D
@DavidWallace funny you should mention that, my UTF-16/UTF-8 fun today actually stemmed from a requirement for us to support Maori macrons
09:56
Of course! NZQA! Macrons have been a source of constant difficulties there.
I'm just glad we're not using PHP widely - for a whole host of reasons, but the fact it has no concept of anything outside of ASCII is a little bit scary
well, there are the mb_* functions
There used to be some intelligence in NZQA's web sites that tried to work out whether the browser supported macrons, and serve the page differently depending on this. I think the aforementioned Paul Tuckey invented it all, but I never quite understood how it all worked.
09:58
but yes - I'm moving on from PHP to python for personal web dev
For those non-NZers among us, NZQA = NZ Qualifications Authority, where Simon works, and where I used to work.
@DavidWallace I'm pretty sure that's all going to be replaced, I'm just not sure when
I thought it might be NZ Q&A :D
Haha, no. Although that would probably be more entertaining to work at
09:59
Umm, they run exams for secondary students, and maintain a huge database of what qualifications everyone studying in New Zealand has earned.
We also keep tabs on all the education providers in New Zealand (at least the non-university non-primary/intermediate ones) and try and make sure they're not ripping students off
What else - oh yeah, we also do qualifications recognition from foreign universities
Yeah, I was trying to do the abridged version :-)
for immigration purposes?
More about employment.
It fits under both, really
10:03
And things like dentistry and medicine, where you need a certain level of qualification to practice.
since immigrants are likely to be the ones with foreign qualifications
Also it's not actually that big in database terms, although it's probably bigger than it needs to be
Anyway, the web sites have to display proper Māori vowels (ie, with macrons) wherever possible. Since NZQA is part of the government and all.
Hey Simon, does Steve Eades still work there?
Doesn't ring a bell - what was he doing?
10:07
He was the "User Interface Architect" - which was a position that he invented himself, by helping out HR in a restructuring exercise.
So he basically did all the web design.
That's a nice little racket if you can cozy up to HR and make a new job for yourself
I'm pretty sure he doesn't work here anymore, I don't think we have anyone dedicated to UI/UX
Yeah, I understand there have been many more restructurings since. This is the New Zealand Government after all!
Restructure every two years to save $$$, when the actual reality is people are too busy shifting desks to actually get anything useful done?
That latest question, about a comparative form of East - I want to answer "only a bunny would say that", but I fear it might be misconstrued. :-)
10:50
Hi @RegDwight
I just answered a question about testing that made me think of Dr Seuss's bee watcher. You know the story I mean?
Called something like "Did I ever tell you how lucky you are". So there's a guy whose job is to watch a bee. And another guy whose job is to watch the first guy. And so on. So there's a picture with a big queue of people behind a bee, each watching the person in front.
lol. excellent
10:54
So this programmer wants to test that he's put an annotation on the right fields in a Java class.
So he writes a unit test that tests that the annotations are as expected.
But how does he know that his "expected annotations" as described in the unit test are correct?
He needs to write some kind of test for this.
I'm saying "he", but I can't tell from this person's name, it may be a "she".
na. you just know based on your requirements
So how is expressing your requirements in the "expected annotations" in the unit test going to be any more accurate than expressing them in the annotations in the class itself?
0
Q: One word for a phrase

FrankI'm writing a scene in which a character says, "The cook must have made a mistake," as a sarcastic remark about the quality of the food that was served. Is there another, shorter, way to get across the same sarcasm, preferably with one word?

I think he's looking for "ewww".
Or zero words. Just go and vomit in the corner.
@DavidWallace the test is an automated way to check that you haven't violated your interpretation of your requirements. You could do it by eye, but why not speed things up?
so his options are ewww or spew
10:59
So you get it wrong in the test, as well as wrong in the class.
Or is it the fact that you've effectively written it twice that means you're more likely to get it right at least once?
that's the thing with interpretation.
Anyway, I almost dug up the bee-watcher picture and posted it as my answer.
@DavidWallace Just don't forget to vomit sarcastically.
@KitFox I wish I could. I don't really remember any keywords from the original.
I'd have to browse some tags. Not even sure which.
Hey, it's just past midnight here and I need my beauty sleep. Good night all.
Good night.
So far I've only found this:
4
Q: Singular or plural following a list

user6989Can anyone tell me if I should use inspire or inspires in this phrase? An extraordinary leader whose vision, values, integrity and boundless curiosity inspires all who follow in his footsteps.

Then there's this:
1
Q: "My apples and orange are wrong"

OmegaSimple question: My apples and orange are wrong or My apples and orange is wrong I am not a native English speaker, and I am having some trouble choosing either are or is for that kind of example.

Still not the same, and in fact in this case the advice is the opposite.
And anyhow, we have a canonical question specifically for "there is".
8
Q: Is "there're" (similar to "there's") a correct contraction?

Mike Q: "Do you have any juice?" A: "Yes, there's some in the fridge." Sounds perfectly fine to me, but: Q: "Do you have any towels?" A: "Yes, there's some in the closet." Does not. I asked for towels - plural - so wouldn't "Yes, there're some in the closet," in which there are is turn...

Also,
3
A: "Is there" versus "Are there"

Neil CoffeyYou're talking essentially about a matter of formality. In everyday, informal (especially spoken) English, native speakers commonly use "there's" (and derived forms) to introduce either a singular or plural. In more formal/careful usage, "there are" (and derived forms) generally appears to be pr...

11:18
I've just seen the new reputation system in action! how satisfying
should we give "the cook made a mistake" to writers?
Well I dunno, they might complain again.
Just close it.
Too localized.
12:17
0
Q: "If something were" or "If someting was" in the 2nd conditional?

GrzenioI have the following sentence in the draft of my latest paper: No arbitrage would be introduced if the project were traded. Is this version correct? Or should it be: No arbitrage would be introduced if the project was traded. What are the rules here?

dupe
15
Q: Which is correct: "what if there was" or "what if there were"?

jjnguy Possible Duplicate: “If I was” or “If I were”. Which is more common, and which is correct? Is this correct grammar? What if there was a Stack Overflow on… Shouldn't it be "what if there were a Stack Overflow on…"?

13:05
@DavidWallace The thing about the unit test is that it allows you to test the requirements now AND later at any time. So it's not entirely for testing that your code that you just wrote is correct. It also helps ensure that your code stays correct as people modify it later. Also, writing tests explicitly helps you put your mind in a frame of breaking things, and so you're more likely to find errors; it's a sort of mental exercise.
thanks, @MrShinyandNew! I wasn't feeling particularly articulate earlier
@MattЭллен no problem. Though I did violate my own rule of not teaching people any computer science in this room.
It's hard to resist. Especially since David seems like a sincere listener.
I thought it was just our Dutch doggy pal you'd ceased educating :D
Moin.
13:17
Trop.
dang it, that was my second guess :D
@MrShinyandNew安宇 I like it when you violate me in that fashion.
@MattЭллен No, what you said was perfect!
Less, much, too much. You helped me be witty.
even better!
@MattЭллен Yeah it's true. But I've been thinking of extending it to a general rule.
@KitFox If you like it, is it violating?
(cue @Reg "No violating in this chat.")
Hmm, I can see why you would be confused here. I should have said "I like it when you violate your rules for me."
13:21
@KitFox Yeah I assumed that's what you mean, only, you wrote it more... playfully.
Anyway I don't really teach you any computer science.
How bad is it if I correct my sons' fighting stance and punching style?
sounds good to me
I guess that depends on if you intend for him to use it for fighting?
@MrShinyandNew安宇 I suppose not. Hey, can you And @Matt join me in Chatzy for a minute?
13:23
sorry, no can do. I'm at work and the room number is at home :(
@MattЭллен OK, well, check it later?
will do!
oh. hmm. maybe in my online email...
Also @aedia.
nope. only got the password there
Is that your waffle one?
13:26
aye
Should I send you the link then?
I'm about to set off home, so not much point :) I will send it to myself for future reference
OK.
So it has come to this
13:32
Which?
@N3buchadnezzar let me guess, you read XKCD?
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yes, you me, this moment.
Hmm, there is no XKCD in chat, but I don't get the joke.
ponders what to do
prints out, pins on board, sets as background
That's actually kind of sexy.
I'm sure I can convince my husband to say that once in a while.
13:43
kinky
Heh. Not very.
@KitFox Dog food is very kinky.
@KitFox I bet you could convince your son to say it though. Then he'd be saying it all the time, going around the house creating dramatic tension.
And validly observing.
I'd rather teach him this dialogue:
Silence?
13:47
Son: "So it has come to this."
Person: "Come to what?"
Son: "You. Me. This moment."
Person: "What are you talking about?"
Son: "I am simply making a valid observation."
2
Son: "Guess what just came in the mail"
Person: "What?"
Son: "Me."
@N3buchadnezzar ?
@MrShinyandNew安宇 It is a terrible sex joke.
@KitFox That's how I read it but I was crossing my fingers and hoping otherwise.
13:56
haha
0
Q: It will take a while until/before the change takes an effect

PietroWhich is correct or sounds better to you? It will take a while until the change takes an effect. It will take a while before the change takes an effect. Thank you

This needs some fixing.
And someone is about to post an answer with NGrams. I can feel it in my bones.
0
Q: Words expressing the idea of getting together

James PoulsonI'm seeking a word, or words, that fit the idea of getting together. So far, I've come up with "connect" and "hookup" but they're not what I'm looking for (the former is too mundane and the latter has some awkward connotations).

Also, I don't think this one meets our criteria for SWR.
@KitFox I voted Gen Ref. Even though I don't really like that close reason. This question is specifically just asking for a thesaurus dump.
I picked too localized, but I probably should have NARQ'd it.
It invites lists and thesauri entries.
I probably should have commented, but I don't feel like it today.
Besides, he's probably just using it to figure out a catchy name for his dating website.
Or chat website.
1
Q: Shorter, sarcastic way to express "The cook must have made a mistake"

FrankI'm writing a scene in which a character says, "The cook must have made a mistake," as a sarcastic remark about the quality of the food that was served. Is there another, shorter, way to get across the same sarcasm, preferably with one word?

How is this still open?
I voted already.
@KitFox Vote harder.
14:12
> 'System.Data.DataRowView' does not contain a property with the name 'totalIntWeeks'.
See what you made me do?
@MrShinyandNew安宇 I should mention that my son does occasionally say "That's a really interesting observation, Mommy."
@KitFox Hey, not my fault you have to use .Net.
What would you use?
Also, he says "Let me splain" just like Inigo Montoya.
@KitFox I don't get involved in middle-tier development, unless someone really bollixes things up.
14:15
"bollixes"? That's an odd spelling.
Yuhuh.
This is Robusto playing boggle:
@RegDwight Can you surge a few battles against my deck?
14:20
@MrShinyandNew安宇 I kill at Boggle.
@Vitaly Hold on.
Fought two battles with Gorelesup, two with LtW. Lost all four.
Does Iron Maiden help?
No idea. It never gets to activate.
It's Enfeeble All 2 on Play. Basically, an action card, and an assault just for lulz.
It isn't intended to activate, it's intended to ruin your deck whenever it's played and I have a striker or two active.
I don't get the On Play thing.
14:28
I ran it on Surge with Atlas for a few games, and my, is Iron Maiden OP!
I just witnessed what On Death means, but On Play never had any effect that I could see.
@RegDwightѬſ道 when Iron Maiden is played, you can think of it as an Enfeeble All 2 action card, the way EMP Strikes All 2 when played
@Vitaly Surged 4 with Da Killah, 2/2. If your IM gets out first it kills SO.
That's how I read it, yes. But I never saw anything to that effect.
@Robusto — Ohhh, sweet. Thanks.
14:30
Perhaps there's bugs or something.
@RegDwightѬſ道 I tested it with Active: Atlas, Tiamat and Defense: Atlas, Iron Maiden, on Fight. The Tiamat instantly died from the other Atlas's strike as soon as IM was played.
I need to get Rhino and hephatat. I guess that means raids. :(
@Vitaly, can you please tell me what deck to use to get past Blight Assault 4?
@KitFox Umm I don't really remember, it was so long ago. How many Azure Reapers do you have?
@Vitaly None.
14:34
Serenity again. Muh.
@KitFox ... Brawlers?
Two.
@KitFox Tridents?
Well Tridents she can buy as many as she wishes.
Not if she wasn't busy grinding gold :P
14:38
I think I have three.
Yes, three.
OK, how about a 7-card deck: Atlas, Brawler(2), Trident(3), Niaq, Heir—it gets 75% in the simulator against BA4
Razogoth's Heir, right?
No, replace Atlas with Malort, 80%
Yeah, him
OK. I'll try it. Thanks.
14:46
Yay! It worked! gives @Vitaly a peck on the cheek
@Reg changed my commander, can you please tell me if it's better than Lucina/Atlas?

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