English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

21:00

Hi.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Hi.

Cerberus

finishes guacamole with sad look

I used my new very sharp knife to cut the tomatoes.

But I want a vegetable dicer.

Have you ever used one?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

no

I have a big-ass knife.

it dices.

Cerberus

@Matt: Good article. The only thing is that lying awake is utterly boring and no fun.

user19161

@Cerberus Be careful not to cut yourself!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

21:04

I also have a food processor. It pulverizes

Cerberus

►

Oh, wrong video.

Fun, but wrong.

This is the one.

Look what that guy does.

I want that.

And I have seen a real person do it too, and he did it just as fast.

user19161

@Cerberus The other video looks naughty.

Cerberus

@JasperLoy It is!

A few clips from the Catherine Tate show.

►

Hilarious.

aedia λ

@Cerberus Hi! I don't have a dicer, but I had one once (well my parents did). Now I have a food processor thingie sort of like this but smaller

►

Cerberus

@aediaλ Oh! Lemme see that...

@aediaλ Hmm I can do that with a regular blender: but it is not nearly as quick, and you need to cut your stuff in fairly small pieces first, and won't it cut part of it to mush?

I mean, it's great, and I do that all the time; but not if I want dices.

aedia λ

21:13

It's pretty good for chopping onions and celery and stuff. And walnuts. And my husband uses it for blending stuff for pesto.

Cerberus

Oh yes, I use it for pesto too, it's great.

But onions?

Will you get regularly shaped dices?

aedia λ

I don't really notice that it makes stuff too mushy but with the walnuts it does make a bit of a powdery mess (like some bits are too small) but I use it anyway.

Nah not perfect.

But it's great if I want to start something on the stove and need to have everything chopped like, while the pot is heating

Cerberus

The problem with onions is that you can't have big pieces in certain dishes, so you need to go on until all the big pieces are gone.

user19161

Cooked onions are good. Raw onions are bad.

Cerberus

@aediaλ Yeah I guess I should use it more with general sauces where the shape doesn't matter much.

I've just eaten raw onions in my guacamole.

I also use a bit in gazpacho.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

21:17

@Cerberus you know what's good for that? a hand blender, the kind on the end of a wand.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yeah that's what I use!

It's basically the same thing.

By the way, I accidentally a Canadian video!

►

aedia λ

It's amazing how many things there are for slicing

That reminds me of an egg slicer thing I used to love using when I was a kid. I don't have one now and I kind of miss it.

I think I probably volunteered to make egg salad just so I could play with the egg slicer.

Cerberus

Oh yes, we used to have that too!

But did it work well?

I don't remember.

aedia λ

Uhh sometimes.

ErikE

Playing with the egg slicer is an important part of any person's childhood. It was, mine!

aedia λ

21:23

There were always bits that got messed up but I just ate them.

Cerberus

@aediaλ How disconcerting!

@ErikE Haha yes!

But I don't remember whether ours worked well. I think not.

Grace Note

Hum... a very random question just came to mind.

user19161

@GraceNote Yes?

Cerberus

Hi!

"Am I a nicer dicer?"?

Grace Note

Nah, I looked it up in a dictionary.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

21:27

bye everyone. (hi gracenote, bye gracenote)

Cerberus

Aww.

user19161

@GraceNote That's nice. A question came to mind ... I looked it up!

Grace Note

It was just "Is Incest meant to always imply carnal relations, or does it also include just plain infatuation and romantic attraction? If not, I wonder if there is a word for that."

aedia λ

@Cerberus Disconcerting?

user19161

@GraceNote Did you mean for it to be asked on ELU?

Grace Note

21:29

Not particularly, no.

I do expect the people in this room to have known the answer, though.

user19161

@GraceNote OK so what is the answer you got? Now I am thinking too...

Grace Note

The answer is that yes, it does imply carnal relations.

Cerberus

@GraceNote I'd say it must include consummation of some kind? But an infatuation can be incestuous if one party or the other imagines carnal relations...

Grace Note

So if one were to refer to having simply an attraction (like a crush) to a relative, then it is wise not to refer to it as incest.

Cerberus

@aediaλ You ate misshapen egg bits! You ignored the laws or regularity!

Or something.

ErikE

21:31

It's not otherwise you can't say "but that would be incest!"

Cerberus

@GraceNote True. But the attraction can be called incestuous.

Though even that is iffy.

KitFox

W. T. F?

Grace Note

Yeah, still implies a bit more, it feels like.

user19161

There are real stories of relatives who did not know they were relatives till they got married.

KitFox

I leave for like, five minutes, and this is what you are talking about when I come back?

ErikE

21:32

Is it incest if you're not a blood relation? Like a cousin who was adopted?

user19161

And also how some countries were thinking about whether to legalize incest.

Grace Note

@ErikE Aren't there tons of stories about people realizing they could continue their love once they realize they are not in fact blood-related?

@KitFox While I find this par for the course, I did actually bring this up on the grounds of vocabulary, not otherwise.

user19161

Now I am not even sure what level of relatedness is considered incest.

KitFox

First-degree relation.

ErikE

No closer than sharing a great great great great grandparent.

user19161

21:34

@ErikE WTF?

ErikE

Lol

KitFox

Oh please. Most people are at least sixth cousins.

ErikE

How else are you going to define it?

KitFox

Define what?

ErikE

It's just deciding on the number of greats.

user19161

21:35

It would be interesting to put everyone who ever lived on a relations graph.

Grace Note

First degree would be siblings and first cousins, aye?

KitFox

Siblings, parents, children. First cousins are actually not counted, as I recollect.

But aunts and uncles are.

Let me think.

ErikE

Siblings share parents. Cousins share a set of grandparents.

KitFox

You can figure it out from the percentage of genetic relationship.

I think it is 25% or greater genetic relationship.

user19161

@KitFox And also nephews and nieces?

KitFox

21:37

@JasperLoy Yes.

Grace Note

Hum. I'm more familiar with first cousins still being "Too close".

KitFox

So parent-child is 50% relation.

user19161

I am not even sure what first cousins means.

KitFox

Siblings are 25% relation.

Grace Note

Means the child of your aunt/uncle

ErikE

21:37

I'd be interested to know how the % of shared heritage relates to defect risk.

KitFox

First cousins are only 12.5%, I think.

Cerberus

@ErikE No.

KitFox

@ErikE First cousins are technically OK for breeding purposes, but not recommended.

ErikE

@KitFox siblings can vary from 0% to 100%.

Cerberus

I once flirted with a remote cousin.

user19161

21:39

@KitFox This sounds quite funny!

user19161

@Cerberus How remote?

KitFox

@ErikE Siblings are a 25-50% relation, but can be 0% if adopted, or 100% if twin.

Cerberus

@JasperLoy I think we shared a great-great-great-grandfather.

Grace Note

@KitFox I once found a chart on that subject...

KitFox

Second cousins are definitely far enough removed.

My parents were actually third cousins-ish.

Cerberus

21:40

We probably shared more recent ancestors too that we didn't know about, hehe.

Grace Note

Yeah, I think second cousins and first cousins once removed were "fair game".

ErikE

@kitfox I'm not sure where you're getting that but it's incorrect. Plus, it also depends on the relatedness of the parents.

Grace Note

(If I have that whole "X removed" thing right. It might've been thrice removed, I can't even remember the metrics on that system, argh)

user19161

I gave six people presents today, shh...

KitFox

@ErikE I am talking about the degree of their genetic overlap.

JSBᾶngs

21:41

i once had a crush on a step-cousin

which, being step-, doesn't count

KitFox

@GraceNote Ordinals are generations up, removes are generations down, I think.

ErikE

Take two unsplit sex cells from two parents. Split them. Make two children from them. Those children are siblings and 0% related.

KitFox

Coefficient of relationship

In population genetics, Sewall Wright's coefficient of relationship or coefficient of relatedness or relatedness or r is a measure for the level of consanguinity between two given individuals. The coefficient of inbreeding is calculated for a single individual, and is a measure for the amount of pedigree collapse within that individual's genealogy. Roughly speaking, the coefficient of relationship approaches a value of 1 for individuals from a completely inbred population, and approaches a value of 0 for individuals with arbitrarily remote common ancestors. Definition The coefficien...

Grace Note

@KitFox So, cousin's cousin would be...?

KitFox

@GraceNote Me?

@ErikE Not true.

ErikE

21:43

Sorry I don't know the right terms off the top of my head...

JSBᾶngs

@ErikE this is technically correct, but statistically siblings are always very close to 50% related

Grace Note

@KitFox No, no, other parent in the cousin's relation. As in, if I were a cousin by my cousin's maternal side, then a cousin on that cousin's paternal side would be...?

JSBᾶngs

because the number of nucleotides is so large, and the degree of overlap converges very quickly on 50%

KitFox

@GraceNote Unrelated?

Grace Note

No term for that at all? Huh.

ErikE

21:44

Average or expected relatedness is not the same as actual. Thank you @jsb

KitFox

I was right about first cousins, though. I feel pretty good that I remembered that much.

@JSBᾶngs That's not technically correct.

That's assuming that your chromosomal pairs don't share any genetic relationship, which is not true.

They are very likely to be identical or close to identical.

ErikE

References please!

Oh you gave one. I will read it when I can. Have to run.

KitFox

And anyway, @GraceNote:

> From the above table, it can be seen that most legislation regarding incestuous unions concern relations of r=25% or higher, while most permit unions of individuals with r=12.5% or lower.

@ErikE You might want to take a class in genetics first.

Grace Note

...the schmoobies is a double first cousin?

user19161

I wonder if the marriage database of various countries is set to disallow incest.

KitFox

21:48

@GraceNote I think it is a cousin who is related both maternally and paternally.

So if your mother's sister and your father's brother had offspring, they would be double first cousins.

user19161

So that when A wants to marry B and the program detects it, it gives a loud ding!

Grace Note

Ah, so if (as one example) brothers married sisters, their kids would be double first cousins?

KitFox

@GraceNote Right. I think. They are more related than outbred uncles and aunts.

Grace Note

Makes sense.

@KitFox I suppose I'm conditioned by the following line, where it mentions that cousin marriage is prohibited in the US. Assumedly meaning first cousins.

KitFox

Right.

You might find an article on kin selection interesting.

aedia λ

21:52

@GraceNote I was wondering the same thing after reading wiki, but I was extra confused at first when I thought you were asking if the condition schmoobies described double first cousins

Grace Note

@aediaλ I use a lot of nonce words. Some with periodic resurgence, others opportunistically.

KitFox

Or maybe inclusive fitness, if you are interested in the genetic aspect of incest.

Alenanno

Uhm... Really? ¬_¬ (question below)

user19161

@GraceNote Also, oop and hejudas.

Alenanno

0

Q: Is there a word that means "every four weeks"?

Is there a fourth word in this series: weekly, biweekly, triweekly, ...? If not, and I had to coin a word, then would "quadweekly", "quadriweekly", or some other word be more etymologically appropriate? For example, is there a similar series from which I could borrow the prefix for "four"?

single-word-requests

Grace Note

21:54

@JasperLoy The former isn't a nonce word.

KitFox

Well, I am glad I could help.

user19161

@Alenanno Yes what about it?

aedia λ

@GraceNote Noncesense, I can usually understand you just fine :)

KitFox

Now I will be off.

Alenanno

@JasperLoy Read the title 3 or 4 times.

Grace Note

21:54

Thanks, @Kit

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus then don't sleep alone!

cya @KitFox

user19161

@Alenanno I know, but what do you think of it?

user19161

Every four weeks may be different from every month.

user19161

A month has 28, 29, 30 or 31 days.

aedia λ

@KitFox Laterz, foxygatorz!

user19161

21:56

Four weeks has exactly 28 days.

user19161

Oh, this month has 29 days.

Alenanno

I'll edit the question to make it more specific then.

aedia λ

@JasperLoy Thank goodness. I need them to get everything done. Which means I should stop chatting sad face

Matt Эллен

hi @aedia :D it seems a while since you've been here

aedia λ

I know!

user19161

21:59

@aediaλ Yes, no skiving!

aedia λ

@MattЭллен It's one crazy thing after another.

ErikE

@kitfox so you're saying I couldn't understand your linked relatedness article without taking a class first?

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Hmm I don't sleep well when I have to share my bed! Do you?

aedia λ

It seems the interwebs won't function without me or something.

Matt Эллен

@aediaλ that sounds stressful

Cerberus

22:00

feels increasingly attracted to these vegetable-dicing thingies

user19161

@aediaλ Yeah without you we will all not have access to the internet!

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus you should get a bigger bed. yeah I sleep fine when I'm sharing :)

Cerberus

@MattЭллен My bed is 1.6 m wide.

aedia λ

Cuddles are the best!

user19161

@Cerberus I only need a good pillow. I searched the whole island for a suitable pillow.

aedia λ

22:01

And piles of blankets like a nest. And not too many pillows.

Cerberus

@aediaλ Not while I'm asleep!

aedia λ

Mmm naptime.

Cerberus

@JasperLoy Really? Otherwise your neck hurts?

aedia λ

@Cerberus Yes asleep cuddles!

Everytime cuddles.

Cerberus

@aediaλ Nooo....

I am of the type, "please move to the edge of the bed: your toe is almost brushing against my ankle".

Matt Эллен

22:02

@aediaλ yes :)

aedia λ

Oh noes!

user19161

@Cerberus Yes!

aedia λ

@Cerberus I'm like that if I am way too warm in the summer or sometimes if I'm in a lot of pain, like if my back or neck hurts or something and I just have to sleep in a particular position for once. But normally I like to snuggle.

Cerberus

Somehow I need to change pillows every six months; but it's OK if I change back to the pillow I had the previous period! I switch from soft to hard and vice versa.

user19161

I have not changed my pillow for a few years. Time to get a new pillow. It might me give me a new life!

Cerberus

22:04

@aediaλ I'm always too warm. And I can't sleep if I can't stretch and lie exactly as I want to. I'm just a terrible sleeper, and it gets even worse when there's something else to keep me awake.

aedia λ

Ah. That must be frustrating!

I like to listen to podcasts or stories if I can't fall asleep, but would that just keep you awake more?

Cerberus

@aediaλ Yeah...so cuddling while awake, yes! Asleep, no.

ebay.com/itm/…

Look at this baby.

user19161

@Cerberus Don't try to sleep if you are not tired. QED.

Cerberus

@aediaλ Yes. I tried sleeping with music, didn't work.

@JasperLoy I still can't sleep even when I'm tired.

But I'm doing reasonably okay now.

user19161

@Cerberus I prefer OK to okay.

Cerberus

22:06

I usually manage to stay in bed for about 7 hours now, with maybe twenty minutes of wake time in the middle.

aedia λ

That sounds pretty normal.

Cerberus

2

Q: What's the linguistics term for "Schubertiaden" and similar words?

What's the linguistics term for "Schubertiaden" and similar words (that refers to a group of people based on a person's name)?　 "Schubertiaden" refers to the group of people of similar interest and activity with musician Schubert.　What are some other examples?

etymology word-usage linguistics

Matt Эллен

that sounds good

Cerberus

Why is this guy insisting that a Schubertiade refers to people? And why the -n?

Yeah I'm not complaining. How did you sleep last night, Matt?

user19161

2

Q: Is there a word that means "every four weeks"?

Is there a fourth word in this series: weekly, biweekly, triweekly, ...? If not, and I had to coin a word, then would "quadweekly", "quadriweekly", or some other word be more etymologically appropriate? For example, is there a similar series from which I could borrow the prefix for "four"? UPDA...

single-word-requests

user19161

22:08

Too localised I say.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus It was ok, but noisy people above me work me up after a couple of hours. I got back to sleep quite quickly, so no harm done :)

user19161

@MattЭллен You can tell them.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus is it maybe German?

@JasperLoy yeah, but I'm British, it's just not how we do things ;)

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Oh, that is annoying. Yeah, as long as you can get back to sleep, it's OK, though you might feel slightly less rested in the morning?

Matt Эллен

passive aggression is our style

Cerberus

22:11

@MattЭллен It is German, and it means a festival. It's used the German way everywhere, as far as I know—at least in Holland too.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus I think I was alright in the morning - no more tired than normal

user19161

@MattЭллен Never heard of. We should not say we do this because we are this. We should do what needs to be done, no more, no less.

Vitaly

@Reg I'll have 2 bars in about 30—40 minutes. Which war?

user19161

But of course being imperfect beings we are very much subject to social conditioning.

KitFox

@MattЭллен Well, I think you have both found your solution then.

Matt Эллен

22:12

@KitFox Cerberus sleeps alone :p

user19161

@MattЭллен I sleep alone too.

KitFox

I thought you said that you both sleep better when there is someone with you.

user19161

@KitFox That someone can be in your dreams.

Matt Эллен

9 mins ago, by Cerberus

@aediaλ I'm always too warm. And I can't sleep if I can't stretch and lie exactly as I want to. I'm just a terrible sleeper, and it gets even worse when there's something else to keep me awake.

but certainly I do

aedia λ

@MattЭллен Ahh you just reminded me I wanted to tell you guys I watched Series 1 of Yes, Minister and loved it. I can't remember if someone here suggested it to me

Matt Эллен

22:14

cool! possibly Mrs hiny

I don't think I've seen it

KitFox

Oh, I thought Cerb said he did sleep well when he was sharing. Never mind.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Hmm OK, very good, then!

Matt Эллен

yeah :)

user19161

I cannot recall this American drama. Maybe you guys know. There is a Wendy and Paul in it. It is about growing up.

Cerberus

@aediaλ Very good!!

Matt Эллен

22:15

@JasperLoy the wonder years

Cerberus

I always evangelize YM. It was my first answer on this website!

KitFox

The Ice Storm?

user19161

@MattЭллен Ah yes! Highly recommended!

Matt Эллен

I am a good guesser :D

user19161

I watched a few episodes on youtube!

user19161

22:16

It is so good!

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus nice! I should watch it some time

user19161

I think The Days of our Lives has thousands of episodes, boring...

Cerberus

@MattЭллен I can't believe you, as a Brit, don't know it! Do you like intelligent wordplay? Do you like intrigue? Cynicism?

It is mainly about those three.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus I know it, of course - I've seen some episodes. Just not many.

Cerberus

Ah OK.

phew

Matt Эллен

22:21

:D

KitFox

You know, @Matt, I think you should consider altering your polarity. You and Cerb have a lot in common, and you live practically next door to each other.

user19161

@KitFox WTF?

KitFox

@JasperLoy What?

Matt Эллен

@KitFox indeed, I'm not saying I'm not game

KitFox

@MattЭллен Well, then. nods approvingly

user19161

22:22

@MattЭллен WTF?

Matt Эллен

huh? not sure what's puzzling you. nothing to see here

user19161

Well, maybe I got it all wrong, as usual.

KitFox

Dinnertime! Later!

Matt Эллен

cya @KitFox :D

user19161

@KitFox Enjoy!

Matt Эллен

22:26

time for bed for me.

good night

user19161

@MattЭллен Good night!

Robusto

@Vitaly: Something you might try: open one of those half-assed SVG files in Illustrator (or try to). Then save as an Illustrator file, and then save as an SVG file. Compare the export with the original and see what the differences are. Illustrator adds a lot of cruft to SVG, not all of which (I think) is necessary, and you might be able to trim a lot of metadata, etc., from your other exports and end up with something more like what your target format needs.

Vitaly

Hmm. Good idea, thanks.

Cerberus

Night Matt and Kit!

user19161

I was thinking of a stupid question. What do people say at noon? Good noon?

user19161

22:33

They can say good morning one second before or good afternoon one second after.

Grace Note

@JasperLoy Good day, usually. Noon is still daytime, even if it is not morning.

user19161

@GraceNote Ah, my stupid question got a clever answer!

Cerberus

@JasperLoy It's never exactly noon, because noon is a point in time. So it will always be either before or after 12.

user19161

@Cerberus A philosophical answer.

Cerberus

Just an answer.

user19161

22:37

It makes us think of how time works.

user19161

Time is made up of infinitely many infinitesimally small points.

Cerberus

nods

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Vitaly let's see.

5hade5.

Vitaly

@RegDwightѬſ道 I've already spent my first bar on the defense war. Waiting for another 5 energy to level up.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Okay.

I'll spend mine but then I think I'm out for today.

user19161

22:49

I am thinking why people like to type okay when OK has less letters and is the original form.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I am thinking why people type anything at all when moo has no letters at all and is the original form.

Cerberus

Typing okay is closer to the phonetical value and hence more intuitive?

user19161

@Cerberus But would you type deejay or DJ?

user19161

Of course I would use OK and DJ, very predictable.

Cerberus

I don't have a conscious preference.

user19161

22:53

But of course I would not use OK or DJ in formal writing.

user19161

Alright or correct would replace OK.

Vitaly

Spent.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Actually it's an interesting question. People will write NP instead of no problem, or even w/ instead of with, just to save two letters, but they will also write okay instead of OK.

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 There are many mysteries in this world.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

But I guess people are just illogical like that.

We should be thankful that some of our actions make sense at all.

user19161

22:58

@kit That was a quick dinner.

KitFox

Was it?

user19161

Maybe I lost track of time while pondering the mysteries of the world.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…