English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

@drɱ65δ Being just plain corny is old hat. Strive for uniqueness!

6:15 PM

@Jasper JB, MC... Can you do MJ next?

user19161

@SonicTheHedgehog I don't like MJ.

user19161

Hi @sim! Are you still on your iphone?

@Jasper sigh the reason I can't be MJ myself is that they would freak out.

@dr65--trg was a user in Belarus or around there. He was a downtrodden misogynist

@Jasper yup.

@sim he was not seen since... few months, am I right?

6:18 PM

Sorry I didnt reply to your email yet

@sonic only one month

Anyhow, I see what happens to someone being misogynist in front of simchona... :)

Ok, what in the world... ???

trg787

1

Yes, I get pissed off. But I didn't block him; he just hasn't come back

He only has one rep, and seems to have no Q's or A's....

and he has been registered for about 2 months... I reconise the avatar and name... am I looking at wrong person???

You forgot an article in there, @sonic

hmm... Chaos Control time. I will be back.

Chaos Control

user19161

6:22 PM

@SonicTheHedgehog recognize

user19161

@simchona You omitted an apostrophe, probably iphone-related.

@Jasper I don't know how to edit on this, but I know where it is

user19161

@simchona Nvm, just stop spoiling your eyesight.

Q: What do you call a person who is easily replaced?

@SonicTheHedgehog I'm pretty sure he's banned from chat.

user19161

0

I was thinking "interchangeable", but isn't really used on people. How do you describe someone who is easily replaced by another person. The implied connotation is that they have no inherent qualities that make them more suitable for the job than any of their peers, it is just a matter of select...

single-word-requests

user19161

6:34 PM

I am not complaining, but is there some reason why everyone's answer has 2 votes and mine has none?

user19161

Well, it's short and sweet...

user19161

And I did not repeat the other answers.

I don't think dispensable is a word I would use with people.

user19161

@Kitḫ dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/…

@Jasper And?

user19161

6:40 PM

@Kitḫ Well, you can use them with people too.

Besides, he's not talking about getting rid of someone, just that anyone is suitable.

user19161

Not common, but not wrong.

@Jasper I didn't say you couldn't.

user19161

@Kitḫ I know, just surprised about the 0 vs 2 upvotes. Not complaining, just surprised.

user19161

Life is full of surprises, good and bad and neutral ones.

6:43 PM

What is a neutral surprise?

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 Suppose you waited one year for a reply. If you get a good reply, that's a good surprise. If you get a bad reply, that's a bad surprise. If you get a neutral reply, that's a neutral surprise. And I made this intentionally long.

Q: "I've decided not to leave A.I. Town" versus "I've decided to not leave A.I. Town"

1

Last month I decided to change my residence and shift to another town. After some days, due to some reasons, I cancelled my program and decided to stay at my current place. At that time I sent a message to my friends, "I've decided not to leave A.I. Town". After sending the message, a question ...

prepositions prepositional-phrase

7

Q: Order of "not" with infinitive

This is one thing that keeps bugging me, and maybe there's a direct answer. Gramatically, which one is more correct of these two? Does it make a difference? "I tried not to do that." or "I tried to not do that."

word-order infinitive

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 Done.

I voted too. what happens to my rep earned on my answer to the dupe if it is closed?

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 You keep rep unless question is deleted.

6:51 PM

Bad music playing

@Jasper cool.

user19161

@SonicTheHedgehog I don't think anyone would freak out. Just go ahead. Change it now.

@Jasper Nononon... BAD, by Michael Jackson.

user19161

@SonicTheHedgehog I don't like his hairstyle either, though I like Kitaro.

user19161

Kitaro's music is really inspiring too. My favourite is "The Light of the Spirit" but the sound system has to be reasonably good for you to appreciate this piece.

user19161

7:04 PM

I go hysterical when I hear this. Make sure you take a meal first before listening to it.

user19161

Otherwise you might faint from what it evokes in you.

@Kit - alas I can't change my blog post to put those corrections in. I might see if waiwai can, but I'm not allowed to edit it.

7:34 PM

ever have one of those days where every time you come up with a clever solution to the problem, you realize only at the very end that it's not going to work, and that the missing piece is actually the source of the problem itself? I feel like I'm this -> <- close to solving my problem, or maybe finding perpetual motion, but it ALWAYS ELUDES ME.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 that sounds frustrating. I think I had that sort of situation trying to write networking code. My tests would always fail because events wouldn't happen at the right time and everytime I thought I had it I was wrong.

Good evening

I have a question which is probably too dumb for main page

@MrShinyandNew安宇 The problem is those pesky people. We just need to get them out of the picture and the computers could have a ball.

We'lll see about that!

but what is the difference between institution and organization?

user19161

7:44 PM

@GraceNote We'll

I had a spare L

I mean, if I said "We'll see aboult that!", it'd just be awkward, neh?

user19161

@GraceNote Now you are just MSU.

I am writing a paper on software engineering, and my prof doesn't like it that I say that the users of the software work for an "organization"

No, not making anything up. I see 3 Ls in a sentence that should only have two Ls, so that's quite literally a spare L.

user19161

@rumtscho Then tell him to go away.

7:46 PM

She wants me to say that they work for an "institution", because she finds it confusing to speak of software with the support dimension "organization" (like software for TODO lists)

I might need it in the future, too, so if some time comes and I find myself bereft of a sufficient quantity of Ls, I'll know, "Hey, back on 1994226, I've got a spare L there!"

@rumtscho ?? if they work for an organisation, what else can you say? a company? a group of like minded individuals who want to make software?

I can't say "a company", because they could be working for a hospital or a university.

But "institution" sounds like a mental hospital to me.

It turns out "organization vs institution" is a common Google search.

institution works for hospitals and universities, but what if they're working for a company? companies are not institutions.

@GraceNote LOL

@GraceNote interesting

7:49 PM

@rumtscho Many people would find it less friendly because of such connotations. I would stick to "organization" unless someone forced me into "institution".

I'm a bit werked on this because I went to school at an "Institute"

werked?

Why is a company not an institution?

@rumtscho it's just not

why is a hospital not a company?

Let's look at the constituent roots of the words here.

An organization is a group of people that are organized together for a purpose.

7:50 PM

@MattЭллен I read (at least diagonally) the Wikipedia articles first, it says that corporations are a type of institution.

An institution, then, would logically be a group of people that are instituted together for a purpose.

I'm with the others when I say "institution" brings up notions of "mental institute", and thus I'd go with organization.

Institution

An institution is any structure or mechanism of social order and cooperation governing the behavior of a set of individuals within a given human community. Institutions are identified with a social purpose and permanence, transcending individual human lives and intentions, and with the making and enforcing of rules governing cooperative human behavior. The term "institution" is commonly applied to customs and behavior patterns important to a society, as well as to particular formal organizations of government and public service. As structures and mechanisms of social order among humans,...

@rumtscho Maybe if it's like, a really well established company. The esteemed Smith & Smith Bros, an institution in business in our town since the 1700s...

"mechanism of social order and cooperation" - there you go: businesses are built on politics and back stabbing - there's no cooperation! ;-)

7:52 PM

You could also check here: thesaurus.com/browse/organization

@rumtscho sorry - my native speaker brain has no reason; it just knows :)

I'd say that a company is an institution but you wouldn't normally refer to it as such, because "institution" also connotes "big" (to me, anyway)

@MattЭллен The chat boxes the beginning of the article, but I'm quite sure I linked to the list for "types of institutions", which contains "Industry - businesses, including corporations - see financial institution, factory, capitalism, division of labour, social class"

But my non-native speaker brain raised a red flag at the substitution as a whole, so I'll try to keep organisation.

Google defines "institute" as (esp scientific or educational)

@rumtscho Well, I would recommend doing what your prof. says, since she is marking your work ;)

7:56 PM

and google defines "institution" as A society or organization founded for a religious, educational, social, or similar purpose
- a certificate from a professional institution
An organization providing residential care for people with special needs
- an institution for the mentally ill
An established official organization having an important role in the life of a country, such as a bank, church, or legislature
- the institutions of democratic government
A large company or other organization involved in financial trading

Close this:

@MattЭллен No, she isn't. She is a co-author. The reviewers from the program commitee of the conference decide if the work is worth publishing. And when they read the paper, it will be too late to exchange single words they don't like.

Q: Ending sentences with "etc"

0

What is the proper way to end a sentence with "etc."? Should there be two periods or just one?

grammaticality abbreviations

@drɱ65δ Finish him!!

@rumtscho Then now is the time to nitpick!

7:58 PM

@aediaλ That's what I've been doing the last three days.

Thank you all for your help nitpicking!

@rumtscho ah, well then I don't know. To me organisation works in all instances, but institution does not. I'm not an expert mind you.

@Mr. Shiny: Thanks!

@drɱ65δ Just doing my job. Or rather, doing EL&U when I should be doing my job.

:-D

:-D

8:01 PM

@Kit - waiwai correctified the blog :)

@MattЭллен @rumtscho I agree with what Matt says here. The only reason I can think not to use "organization" is if you had to use the word a lot in the same piece of writing, with the meaning of sorting things, and a substitute there was not acceptable.

But I can't imagine why you would do that unless you were intentionally trying to confuse people. Organizational customers: New closet organization tools, organized just the way you want them, and tailored for your organization's organizational needs!

@aediaλ That's roughly what happens here. The paper explains a lot about what different IT systems support, and one of the things is organization (so rememberthemilk is a system which supports organization, while skype supports communication). But I don't think there is a single sentence where the reader will mistake which one I mean. The prof is very touchy about synonyms.

@rumtscho "supporting organization" is very different from "supporting AN organization"....

Q: Letter-writing tone as perceived by other nationalities

8:37 PM

0

A question that has been bugging me for quite a while was raised by some communication between my employer and a partner organisation based in Dubai. It turned out that more than once, it's been noticed that this other party tend to use a particular tone of address in letters and emails. Whereas ...

politeness non-native-english

I read it

it seems valid, but that could just be because the wall of text melted my brain

8:55 PM

hey, may I borrow the community's attention for a completely personal purpose for, let's say, 5 minutes?

I need to brainstorm quickly, but I'm all alone right now so it doesn't work as well :)

let's say you want to give a funny, yet relevant name to periodic table of the elements? (for a web widget)

I'm thinking about stuff that evokes chemistry, elements, but that double as everyday names

Like Mendeleev?

@RegDwight so great to see you, it's been like a myriad of hours since I've seen you

Yeah, today is the International Take Your Site Back Day.

@RegDwightѬſ道 yeah, well, JSBangs' starred message a day ago sums up nicely my feeling :(

@RegDwightѬſ道 like Mendeleev, but maybe more unusual

More unusual?

9:00 PM

I've thought about every combination of Mendeleev, Periodic, Table, Elements, but everything's already used by someone :)

Mendelements?

(and Mendeleev is like, impossible to find because it's transliterated in many different ways)

@Fx You're trying to name the table and not the individual elements, right?

@RegDwightѬſ道 yes, less usual :)

"From alkalis to nobles"?

9:01 PM

@aediaλ yeah, the table

Spammer is back

@rumtscho cool one, a tad long

one thing I've come to is some sort of iChemy (along the lines of Alchemy)

History of the periodic table

@Fx Maybe look at names of other forms/layouts it had during its history? The telluric helix was pretty cool.

The history of the periodic table reflects over a century of growth in the understanding of chemical properties, and culminates with the publication of the first actual periodic table by Dmitri Mendeleev in 1869. While Mendeleev built upon earlier discoveries by such scientists as Antoine-Laurent de Lavoisier and Stanislao Cannizzaro, the Russian scientist is generally given sole credit for development of the actual periodic table itself. The table itself is a visual representation of the periodic law which states that certain properties of elements repeat periodically when arranged by ato...

but the alchemy thing might turn people away (it sounds like the opposite of chemistry)

“El Table”

"from H to Uuo", but most people won't get it.

@Fx +1

"The elementary table", if you want to suggest that it's easy to look it up with your widget.

9:07 PM

@rumtscho I stop at Cn ; I won't have anything to do with those IUPAC-unapproved thingies

@rumtscho elementary table is nice

"1H to 115Cn" then (or whatever number Cn hat)

I also thought of “iSotopes” but I wouldn't go public with that one…

(an isotope is sort of a subclass of chemical element)

Sounds like the iSi cream whipper.

"115 elements"

"hydrogen and more"

"all the isotopes"

“112 Elements: Periodic Table” has a nice ring

@rumtscho Hydrogen and Friends

9:14 PM

(if I ever sell it $1, I could then say: “cheap: less than a cent per element”)

Didn't they isolate number 116 last year? I remember reading about it, didn't know that 112 is heaviest.

@aediaλ "and friends" is better than "and more"; I like it

Telements (for table o' elements)

@aediaλ I like that one a lot.

@aediaλ First association: telomeres. So probably too confusing.

@rumtscho Elementary Table is my favorite so far. I see how this is difficult to brainstorm though

9:16 PM

ChemTab? ChemTable? and I'm coming back to my "El Table" (but it's not very clear)

I thought about "We'll all be iron in the end", but it's too much of a scientist's joke

(iron being the stablest of elements in the table)

@rumtscho uhh then... Twelements (a hundred and twelve elements, table of widgety elements? okay maybe this one's a stretch)

@Fx don't go international with "El table". "El" is a common abbreviation for electricity in Eastern European languages. And Spaniards will be just confused.

@rumtscho hum, I see how that might be a problem

"It's elemental: Periodic Table"

I've heard "elemental" mostly in the context of good ol' "air, fire, water, earth".

@Waiwai and @Reg--this new account might be the same as the old spammer. It looks like they're trying to answer questions as well as spam

Love Words

11

phrases etymology

9:20 PM

Yeah, I saw that...

"We love elements"?

No question yet, but the spam was for "love words"

OK, not the best one.

"Mendeleev's widget" (I know we had the name alone, but not his own widget)

@Reg ok

english.stackexchange.com/questions/42804/…

Spam. Again.

"The elements' grid"

9:24 PM

@rumtscho <3lements

@aediaλ ;-)

If it's targeted at highschool students, it'll probably work

(Probably not a good idea to start a name with a symbol though. I just couldn't help myself.)

@aediaλ probably not a good idea, but it's fun

like * username * ?

or $username$

9:27 PM

Gah, not another Oxford comma question.

so thanks all of you, I've got a few starting points and I'll try to work further on that

Ah, okay, it's actually different this time.

@Reg Since our mod actions are overlapping-- do you want to email Jeff about blacklist or shall I?

But the feeds are useful.

Ooh, blacklist?

9:28 PM

@waiwai933 Which blacklist?

@GraceNote Spam

Ah.

Then you should do it.

As in, a spam address?

ok, to much blueness here, I'm heading out :)

I have no experience in these things.

9:29 PM

@GraceNote Yep.

Emailing Jeff seems appropriate, I guess.

@F bye

@wai For IP ban?

I actually considered merging them all into a single account that's suspended indefinitely, but seeing that they are unregistered...

I mean, I can't even find that one you suspended.

Is he gone for good? Destroyed?

@Fx Slogan: Curium yet? Check it out! (or) Don't spend a minute more in Boron! (or) BCNU soon! (or none of these awful puns)

@RegDwightѬſ道 Jeff destroyed and asked us not to do that (new SE policy)

9:30 PM

I wonder why would people want to spam this site.. yawn

@waiwai933 Ah! Good to know.

@Fx Have fun!

@SonicTheHedgehog Because we're famous like that.

@Wai where exactly is this new Se policy?

@Reg whatever makes you sleep at night. jk XD

@SonicTheHedgehog It's behind the scenes and all. Mortal Sonics aren't allowed.

9:32 PM

I am currently immortal.. I fused with shadow.

my last offer for @Fx: "Mendeleev's dream". He probaly would have liked an interactive one, and then there is the rumor that he first saw it in a dream.

opps, shadow wants to talk.

To all you people; I am the Ultimate Life Form. FYI. I'm out.

we knew that, shadow.

@rumtscho You can't ping @fx

Do I care?

Only mods can.

9:33 PM

Yes you do.

@RegDwightѬſ道 I see what you're doing there

whateves...

@Fx I'm just being helpful. :P

@RegDwightѬſ道 I had to remind people of this on F'x's first day.

user19161

10:28 PM

Now that I have deleted my "dispensable" answer, someone writes "dispensable" and gets a plus one.

user19161

Well, this world is never fair, is it?

user19161

@SonicTheHedgehog Why the sudden bold?

@Jasper He was using dual personalities to no useful effect

user19161

@simchona And are you still on iphone?

@Jasper Nope

user19161

10:34 PM

@simchona Good! You will get short-sighted before you know it.

A: What is the origin of the phrase ‘By the by...’?

10:46 PM

Okay, how the hell is this at +1?

1

"-by" in Scandianvia tongues, even today, means "town" or "village." When speaking of medications in English, we ask what the "side effects" are. In Swedish, we ask what the "bieffekt" might be. "Bi" is pronounced as "bee," but it means, in this instance, "secondary." Voila.

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 There are many mysteries in this world.

user19161

Things beyond our understanding or imagination...

@RegDwightѬſ道 Tom Au +1ed and said "welcome to EL&U. Here's +1 to get you started"

I am not wondering about the upvote. People will upvote everything. I just keep wondering, and not for the first time, why people don't downvote rubbish.

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 I don't want to lose 1 point. I am stingy.

JeffSahol

10:50 PM

@RegDwightѬſ道 Can you upvote for "entertainment value"?

@Jasper You will get it back once it's deleted.

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 It might not be you see.

The thing is, people will flag stuff as "not an answer", but not downvote. I see this all the time. And this is not the first time, or even the tenth, that I bring this up.

If you aren't willing to downvote something that you consider not an answer, then what are you willing to downvote?

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 Questions, since no loss of rep.

user19161

@JeffSahol Sure, people can do what they want, that's why this world is a mess.

10:54 PM

@Jasper You do not lose rep for downvoting crap that gets deleted.