English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

19:00

onfocus = "form.elements['focus_field_id'].value=this.id; this.select()"

KitΘδς

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yes, that's what I was thinking.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'm not sure if the form variable is visible from the onfocus, you might have to find it first, like document.getElementById('formid')

KitΘδς

Oh right, I suppose I can leave that inline. It's short enough.

But if I have to find it, I should put it in a script block.

I'll just put it in a function for good measure.

Alenanno

0

Q: Where did the `&` character come from, and why is it here?

I'm sorry if this was asked a million times before, but neither google or english.se search won't help me out. I'm wondering what's the reason behind introducing this character and what's the difference between it and and, could you please help me out?

Gen Ref?

I already voted

KitΘδς

Think it's a dupe.

Alenanno

19:06

No wonder

:D

You're searching the dupe?

KitΘδς

I was. I guess it's not actually a dupe, or if it is I can't find it.

Maybe under ligatures...

Alenanno

Well

it will stay there if no-one else finds it "guilty", democracy wins!

:)

KitΘδς

I don't see another. I agree that it is gen ref, but as I noted in my comment to him, if you don't know the name of the character, you can hardly be expected to find the Wiki article on it.

aedia λ

Somebody here linked me to a great post on the history of the ampersand (other than Wiki) the last time '&' came up. Of course, I've forgotten who and what it was, other than that I had to read it on my phone because my work blocked it.

Alenanno

I didn't know the name of the symbol, still I found the wiki article. :P

I simply wrote "& wiki" in Google

KitΘδς

19:15

@Alenanno tch pft Well then.

aedia λ

Oh, right, I can search for my own whining.

Alenanno

@Kit tch pft?

aedia λ

Jun 21 at 17:07, by JSBangs

i recommend this: http://www.shadycharacters.co.uk/2011/06/the-ampersand-part-1-of-2/

KitΘδς

@Alenanno Stupid teenager sounds of disgust. I was joking.

Alenanno

@Kit I wasn't getting offended. Also because... I couldn't understand it xD :D But disgust at me because I could find it anyway? Just wondering.

KitΘδς

19:19

Yeah, that's what I was being playful about. 'cause I was trying to be all clever and such about how he couldn't find it without knowing its name, and then you were all like, um yeah you can.

Alenanno

Ahah I see, how you said it, made me laugh

KitΘδς

Cool. Thanks.

Alenanno

19:33

Gotta go now, catch y'all later.

:)

Matt Ellen Д

cya :)

KitΘδς

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Well, I can't make this work, but it did give me the idea to split my original validation function into the validation part plus the focus shifting part. I think that will work.

aedia λ

@Alenanno A bientôt!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitΘδς Do you have a publicly available sample? If I looked at it I could maybe suggest something more concrete

KitΘδς

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Hmm.

Let me see if that's ok.

JSBᾶngs

19:42

0

Q: English learning guide line

I'd like to learn english in the coming two months by myself. But firs of all i need a guide. like, where shall i begin? reading gammar book? Vocabulary? or conversation? and how can i divide My time for each lesson. My target is to be well in two month! I really appreciate your any kind reco...

american-english learning early-modern-english

^ off-topic

Matt Ellen Д

@KitΘδς if it is I think jsfiddle could be a great help

KitΘδς

Oooh. Cool, thanks.

I'm still waiting to hear back. Thank you for trying to help.

@JSBngs Do you need a certain rep level to chat?

Matt Ellen Д

20 pts I think

JSBᾶngs

@KitΘδς i think so, but it's pretty low. like, 20?

@Matt jinx

Matt Ellen Д

:D

KitΘδς

19:49

Cripes. I've been telling new users that they can always stop by chat.

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

@kit ...what???

KitΘδς

But I suppose they can't if they don't have the rep.

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

yes. They can't. they must be disappointed.

KitΘδς

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū For off-topic questions, like "What's a good book for ELL?"

Matt Ellen Д

@KitΘδς What is chat explains the rep level

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

19:50

@KitΘδς It's asked so frequently, I wonder if we shouldn't just answer it as CW

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

ELL? I know ESL, but what is ELL?

KitΘδς

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū English language learner

Matt Ellen Д

Eurasian Leather Lovers

oh, yeah that too

KitΘδς

@MattEllenД Right. Of course there's a chat FAQ. So it's 20 rep SE-wide?

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

@Kit Grammar in Use: Cambridge. By Raymon Murphy

KitΘδς

19:52

If that's the case, I don't feel so bad.

Matt Ellen Д

@KitΘδς it looks like it

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū I have that book!

Alain Pannetier

@Jez are you around?

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

@Matt good. :)

Jez

yeah

KitΘδς

@MrShiny @Chaos @Matt That was just an example of a question that's more appropriate for chat.

I wasn't actually asking it.

Matt Ellen Д

19:54

@KitΘδς huh? sorry I've lost track of what's being talked about

Alain Pannetier

Please have a look at that and feel free to amend.

0

A: Comment encourager les gens à écrire en français? How to encourage people to write in French?

Ringard ? Let's see how all this would work: "Hello welcome on the stackexchange network (SEN for short). SEN features among other things a fine selection of language oriented communities. japanese.stackexchange.com (languages: Japanese and English). german.stackexchange.com (languages: Germ...

Matt Ellen Д

@KitΘδς oh i see. I was just replying to Chaos :)

I didn't realise there was a reason for his information!

KitΘδς

@AlainPannetier Oh my head. I started reading it in English and it wouldn't go and then I was reading it in French and it broke again.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitΘδς It's "more appropriate for chat" because the "powers that be" have decided it to be so. But If you ask me, I'd broaden the scope of the site a bit. But Jeff Atwood seems hell-bent on allowing only fully-objective q's and a's that can withstand nuclear war and soil erosion for centuries.

Matt Ellen Д

It will be like looking at my passport

KitΘδς

19:59

@MattEllenД And every sign in Quebec.

Matt Ellen Д

@MrShinyandNew安宇 it's not based on nuthin. Forums devolve and lose their best members if you let the quality drop. Admittedly we know this isn't the only reason the best members leave, but poll questions and discussions tend to end up as poor questions, and if you start allowing them then the site quickly degenerates into a popularity contest.

because they're easy to ask and answer

user19161

@MattEllenД devlove?

Alain Pannetier

@KitΘδς The title is not mine. In one word, there is an attempt in FLU at the moment to institute French as the "preferred" language and this is my contrib (to prevent this from happening). You'll be able to join in once the Beta is over in 4 days or less.

Matt Ellen Д

@JasperLoy lol! devolve

hi Jasper :)

KitΘδς

@MattEllenД I know you've got devlove, you can't fool me.

simchona

20:02

4 hours ago, by KitΘδς

@MattEllenД I agreed with you, but also edited according to simchona's suggestion.

Matt Ellen Д

@KitΘδς I love devs, it's true

simchona

What was my suggestion?

KitΘδς

@simchona Um, the title wording.

user19161

@AlainPannetier I thought we only could not post, I didn't know you could not view the site during private beta either.

Matt Ellen Д

I think it might have been Samthere's suggestion

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:02

@MattEllenД I'm not saying that we should allow ANY questions at ALL, but rather that for a site about english language and usage, questions and answers that are subjective but are about EL&U resources seem like a decent fit. Sure, people might disagree about particular answers, but so what, they can vote, etc. Since we close for dupes, we could have maybe a handful of questions for different kinds of references, tops.

KitΘδς

@MattEllenД Wha—? Really?

simchona

@KitΘδς Err...when did I make this brilliant suggestion?

Alain Pannetier

@JasperLoy. I don't know. Do you have read access?

Matt Ellen Д

@KitΘδς If simchona doesn't remember, then it's my best guess, since Samthere was commenting at the time

KitΘδς

@simchona Heh heh. blush I swear I read the name twice, I could have sworn it was you. But it wasn't, so never mind.

user19161

20:04

@AlainPannetier No, but I will join in a few days when public beta starts. The URL goes to a login page.

KitΘδς

@MattEllenД Yeah, you're right. In my brain, I see it clearly as "simchona."

simchona

@KitΘδς I'm just everywhere.

user19161

@simchona Kittens are universal.

4

Matt Ellen Д

@MrShinyandNew安宇 That's reasonable to have a list of good references. I think we have one somewhere. I don't think we should allow subjective questions simply because policing them to keep the crap out would be a full time job.

Alain Pannetier

@JasperLoy, I'd be glad when you guys can all join in.

aedia λ

20:06

@AlainPannetier I have to do some real, actual w-o-r-k for a goshdarned minute and here you all are back to incomprehensibility. Good job, team.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattEllenД Well, lots of the questions we have are already subjective. It's language, after all.

simchona

3 hours ago, by ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

Of course. i'm not gay.

Really?

Matt Ellen Д

@simchona why did you just get your wooden spoon out? stirring does not need to occur

simchona

@MattEllenД Because he brought up Nazis yesterday. I have a bone to pick.

Alain Pannetier

@aediaλ We couldn't let the occasion go unused.

Matt Ellen Д

20:07

ok, but maybe in a different room?

simchona

@MattEllenД I'm not being left alone with him in chat. Ever again.

aedia λ

Yeah, let sleeping stones soup!

Matt Ellen Д

@simchona ok

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

If not, don't ask.

Matt Ellen Д

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū seriously this doesn't need to occur

simchona

20:08

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū Why is it any of your business what my sexual preferences are?

Matt Ellen Д

@MrShinyandNew安宇 you make a good pioint

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

How is it your business whether I'm gay or not?

simchona

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū Because you made it sound like being gay is a bad thing.

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

Then you are terribly mistaken.

user19161

There, there, easy.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:10

@simchona I'm with @simchona on this one. That statement did seem to suggest that.

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

I do not care if anybody else is gay. I do not think being gay is bad. I only do not perfer men.

user19161

It's interesting how there is hear, hear and there, there.

user19161

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū To be gay is to be happy. Let's all be merry and gay.

Matt Ellen Д

it is interesting. I don't think the terms are related

simchona

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Thank you.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:13

@MattEllenД Also, as far as things being closed, "general reference" seems like a quite heavy hammer that gets wielded a lot around here. But that's another topic.

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

I do not have time for this. Simchona, I am not gay. Period.

simchona

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū That was never my question.

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

Yes it was. you asked me whether it was true that I am not gay!

Or maybe you ahve short-term memory loss.

Matt Ellen Д

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I'm quite happy with gen ref. I'd rather people did their research first.

simchona

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū No. I quoted your statement, and said "really" in disbelief not at the quote contents but at the quote wording.

KitΘδς

20:16

rolls eyes Why are you two arguing?

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

@Kit stay out of this.

KitΘδς

yip

JSBᾶngs

@KitΘδς i'm taking Kit's side here. this whole conversation is dumb

user19161

I have no idea whether this argument is a hostile or friendly one.

Matt Ellen Д

@JSBᾶngs this

simchona

20:16

Apparently I can only care about homosexuals if I'm...homosexual?

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

Everybody stay out. I mean it.

user19161

After all this room is incomprehensible.

KitΘδς

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū Then get a room.

Matt Ellen Д

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū dude you're in a public space. just stop it

simchona

@KitΘδς Nuh uh. Not staying alone with him.

Matt Ellen Д

20:17

one of you can be the bigger person

KitΘδς

Otherwise both of you just shut your yappers.

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

@Kit You get a room.

simchona

@Chaos Go take a break, please.

KitΘδς

@simchona You might take your own advice.

You picked this fight.

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

I thougth you ahd bone to pick with me. Giving up? I thought so.

user19161

20:18

Everyone have a Kit Kat now.

simchona

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū Not every fight needs to be won or lost.

KitΘδς

31 secs ago, by KitΘδς

@simchona You might take your own advice.

simchona

@KitΘδς I did. And I'm backing up. I'm also not snapping at everyone.

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

@simchona say for yourself.

user19161

The Kit Kats are not working.

KitΘδς

20:19

@JasperLoy Alas, I am too far away to be of much help.

simchona

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū I'm backing out of this ridiculous argument. Don't throw more blows now.

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

....Tomberone is better.

simchona

Is that like gravestones in milk chocolate?

Matt Ellen Д

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū Toblerone?

user19161

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū toblerone

KitΘδς

20:19

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū That has caramel filling right?

user19161

@KitΘδς yes

Matt Ellen Д

@KitΘδς Nougat

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

silent mode

KitΘδς

@MattEllenД No, really?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

No, it's a long, chocolate trumpety thing that changes pitch if you stretch it.

Matt Ellen Д

20:20

@KitΘδς yeah

KitΘδς

@MrShinyandNew安宇 thwack

Matt Ellen Д

1 mo

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitΘδς Oh, you're hitting me now? Did we set up a safe word first?

simchona

@MrShinyandNew安宇 snicker

user19161

I like Ferrero Rocher.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:20

Avast!

JSBᾶngs

@MattEllenД the greatest of all chocolate fillings

Matt Ellen Д

@JSBᾶngs indeed

@KitΘδς Toblerone taste experience

KitΘδς

@MrShinyandNew安宇 The safe word is apotheosis.

@JSBᾶngs Agreed.

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I only know that as an antivirus.

JSBᾶngs

Aug 10 at 16:11, by JSBᾶngs

@Robusto safe words are for wusses

user19161

20:22

I sense a disturbance in the force.

KitΘδς

@JSBᾶngs Safe words for safe play.

Matt Ellen Д

@JasperLoy I sense a disturbance in my face

simchona

Well that was fast.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitΘδς That might be a difficult one. Arrr! Apothecary! nnnnn yarr! apostate!.....

Matt Ellen Д

hi @slhck

Jez

20:23

Yoda here is.

Mana ಠдಠ

waves @slhck Saw the flags too, eh?

KitΘδς

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Preposterous!

slhck

@Mana Hey there! (yup...)

Mana ಠдಠ

heh

user19161

@Manaಠдಠ Soon you will too.

simchona

20:24

Well. They've been taken care of now.

slhck

"Nothing to see here, move along Sir!"

Mana ಠдಠ

@Jasper Wait, I just said that I saw them. holds head What?

Borror0

Here's a reminder for you folks: be nice

6

I keep seeing flags from this chat room.

Bogdan Lataianu

wow i haven't seen so much of attendance..26

user19161

@Manaಠдಠ Sorry I forgot you have over 10k, thought only mods.

user19161

20:26

@Borror0 We have people from all countries, hence many flags here.

KitΘδς

@Borror0 Our usual mod is on holiday. He keeps us in line.

user19161

@BogdanLataianu Half are dormant.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitΘδς Anyway, I must haul sail did ye need any further help with yer fornicatin' validatin'?

KitΘδς

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Thank you for your efforts. I can't share the page at this time, though.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitΘδς Ok.

Have a good weekend, mateys.

KitΘδς

20:28

Bye!

Matt Ellen Д

cya @MrShinyandNew

JSBᾶngs

bye!

KitΘδς

Wait @MrShinyandNew ! You didn't say "apotheosis"!

Good lord, we should flag just to generate traffic.

Meet all sorts of new people that way.

Jez

5 minutes without Reg and this place is mad

KitΘδς

I guess he'll have to take us with him next time.

user19161

20:30

@Jez With Reg it is more mad.

Mana ಠдಠ

I would advise that you guys talk to Chaos about cooling down his attitude.

KitΘδς

More civilly mad.

Jez

@JasperLoy I was waiting for that ;-)

simchona

@Manaಠдಠ I did provoke him, and so I apologize.

Mana ಠдಠ

Almost every single argument I've seen on here lately has him against someone else.

KitΘδς

20:31

@simchona Did you apologize to him?

simchona

I apologize to everyone, actually. I behaved badly, and I created a disturbance.

user19161

I thought the whole thing was a friendly one.

Mana ಠдಠ

@simchona fair enough. Either way, you guys definitely need to get the hostility in here sorted out.

simchona

@ChaosG: I'm sorry for picking a fight with you. I saw something you had said in transcript, and I took it badly.

Mana ಠдಠ

Whether that means taking a break from the site, a meta-topic, suspensions, whatever, just get it done, yo.

user19161

20:32

You never know what the other party is thinking though. Once sentence can be interpreted in multiple ways.

simchona

@Manaಠдಠ Acting like a mod already.

user19161

@Manaಠдಠ I see you are practising your modship.

simchona

@JasperLoy Is he going to the moddership?

Mana ಠдಠ

@JasperLoy Indeed. As I was typing that sentence I was just thinking to myself "omg these cinnamon raison rolls melting in my mouth are DELICIOUS"

Powerlord

@simchona He's the leading candidate in Gaming's current election cycle.

user19161

20:34

@simchona Maybe papaship.

user19161

@Powerlord Thanks for the info.

simchona

@Powerlord It was a bad pun. But I did know he was running, just not how well he was doing. thanks!

KitΘδς

@simchona It seems that you are particularly sensitive about sexuality issues. Is there something you would like to share with the group, so we can understand better?

Powerlord

@simchona It's still in primaries, but in Primaries, Mana has the most votes.

simchona

@KitΘδς I have problems with people who have problems with LGBTs.

KitΘδς

20:35

@simchona I understand that, but you are quite aggressive about it. Why so? Have you or someone you care about been the victim of violence because of perceived sexual orientation?

simchona

I've hypersensitive to it because its one of the issues I can't get over. His comment was like..."haha! Me gay! As if!" as if it were a bad thing.

user19161

@simchona Same here.

user19161

@simchona it's

simchona

@KitΘδς I've had several people think I was lesbian, but I've never been a victim of violence. It's one of the issues I need to jump on, though--maybe because I've been through high school and heard a lot of s*** and never done anything.

user19161

@simchona I think shit is OK here.

KitΘδς

20:38

@simchona Well, I notice that the comments that were deleted were asking about your sexual orientation. But why do you feel that you need to "jump on this issue"? Why does it matter to you if people think you are a lesbian or not?

simchona

So when he said what he did, and then went on to imply that I needed to be lesbian in order to understand, I snapped.

@KitΘδς Because it was rude of him to ask. He also asked it in a snide way, like "are you lesbian? No? Then stay out of this"

KitΘδς

@simchona OK. I think I understand your rationale there.

But why did you pick the fight with him in the first place?

simchona

@KitΘδς Because he brought up Nazis and was racist yesterday, and I hold grudges.

Shog9

You guys have the lamest offensive flags.

simchona

@KitΘδς So I jumped on it because he was being offensive again. At least, in my opinion.

user19161

20:41

@Shog9 Hello soldier!

Shog9

Gaming had a foul-mouthed Sponge Bob. You have "Really?"

KitΘδς

@simchona What do Nazis and racism have to do with sexual orientation?

Mana ಠдಠ

@Shog9 Hahahaha

Michael Mrozek

@Shog9 Especially with the ample opportunities available in this room

simchona

@KitΘδς Things I Take Offense To

@KitΘδς He managed to snap at aedia, segueing from the beer brand "flying dog" to joking about Nazi brands

user19161

20:42

@simchona I hold grudges too, so I am quite feminine in this aspect.

user19161

@Manaಠдಠ Someone said I look like Sponge Bob.

Powerlord

@Shog9 Offensive flags? Does it really not tell you whether a flag is a Moderator Attention flag and which is an Offensive/Spam flag?

Shog9

@Powerlord It probably does.

Michael Mrozek

It does

KitΘδς

@simchona I understand that you feel morally obligated to speak up when you hear someone being racist, or sexist, or bigoted, or ignorant, and I appreciate that drive.

Michael Mrozek

20:44

I look forward to next week, when we'll switch from "sigh. Whose turn is it to deal with the latest ELU flag?" to "hey @NewELUMod, deal with it"

simchona

@KitΘδς I apologize when I take it too far.

Matt Ellen Д

@MichaelMrozek ?!

user19161

@MichaelMrozek There won't be a new one for a while I think.

Matt Ellen Д

we're getting a new mod!?

simchona

@MichaelMrozek We just had elections in May...

Michael Mrozek

20:45

Oh, I'm confusing you guys with Gaming. Well now I'm sad again

Mana ಠдಠ

@MichaelMrozek I was about to say :P

Matt Ellen Д

oh

user19161

@MichaelMrozek Do you want to join us instead?

KitΘδς

@simchona I kindly suggest that attacks ad hominem will not change a bigot's mind, not even if it wants to be changed.

Michael Mrozek

@Manaಠдಠ It's your fault; I saw you and vaguely remembered you were in an election, and concluded that it must be for this site

Shog9

20:45

We could still send the new Gaming mod to deal with it. I mean, assuming there aren't anymore Sponge Bob flicks in the meanwhile

Michael Mrozek

@JasperLoy My English skills are sorely lacking

simchona

@MichaelMrozek Don't worry. I'm apparently the sole editor on EL&U.

user19161

@simchona editor?

simchona

@JasperLoy Kit sees other names and thinks it was me

Mana ಠдಠ

@Michael heheh, whoops :D

user19161

20:54

@mana It looks like you will come out no.1. After all, you have my blessing.

Mana ಠдಠ

eh

whatever, we'll see what happens.

Michael Mrozek

I put a lot of money into bribing @Shog9 to fix the results, so I wouldn't worry too much about trivialities like "voting"

user19161

@shog9 Nice website you have there.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…