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6:00 PM
The British Social Attitudes Survey (BSA) is an annual statistical survey conducted in Great Britain by the National Centre for Social Research since 1983. The BSA involves in-depth interviews with over 3,000 respondents, selected using random probability sampling, focused on topics including newspaper readership, political parties and trust, public expenditure, welfare benefits, health care, childcare, poverty, the labour market and the , education, charitable giving, the countryside, transport and the environment, the European Union, economic prospects, race, religion, civil liberties, im...
 
Jez
@Cerberus in the US, religion is alive and well. In South America, ditto. In Africa, it's growing. In Asia, it may be plateau'd. In Europe, there's a battle, with those who used to be considered the sensible ones now being attacked as 'extreme secularists', as if that's a bad thing. Australia has an atheist PM who panders to religious lunatics.
oh, and the middle east. Islam.
 
@Jez I believe religion has been in slow but steady decline in the Americas for decades? I have seen stats, but can't find them now. In Europe, the trend towards irreligion is quite clear. In China and Japan, religion doesn't play a significant part anyway. The Third World may still be becoming more religious in some parts. But even there the elites are, as always, Westernising, I think—but this may take a long while to mature.
 
Jez
is the trend clear in Europe?
 
I believe it is.
 
Jez
and isn't there a nasty backlash as religious people realize it and inject faith into public life, and celebrate the Pope?
that's how i see it
we secularists are under attack. we who would defend the Pope coming to a protestant country and not being beheaded are, in the Pope's estimation, the bad ones.
 
6:05 PM
what ever happened to Dawkins' idea of arresting the Pope, by the way?
there was some hearsay about it but I never actually heard how that went
 
Why is it so hard to find goddamn stats?
I have seen them several times, but can't find them now.
 
@Cerberus — I dunno, maybe they surrendered to the religious and withdrew the stats?
 
You can estimate the power of the irreligious if you compare the developed v. developing countries in this list, i.e. the farther a country is in its economic development, the less religious.
Gallup asked representative samples in 143 countries and territories whether religion was an important part of their daily lives. This map is based on the results, and shows religiosity by country, ranging from the least religious to the most religious on a relative basis. Data from [http://www.gallup.com/poll/114211/Alabamians-Iranians-Common.aspx 2009 Gallup poll].]] [[File:Religious importance.png|thumb|Importance of religion by the Pew Research Center (2002)]] This is a list of countries by importance of religion based on a Gallup Poll. The Gallup poll has a broad question: the ques...
@Vitaly No, I think God removed them.
 
Jez
I love how Blair think one can marry religions and equality, and then claims that too many other people are 'religiously illiterate'.
He's made 'selective religion' into an art form.
 
Blair is just not intellectual, no offense.
 
Jez
6:08 PM
that's an understatement. doesn't stop idiots paying him for his verbal diarrhoea.
 
Of course! But that's all anecdotal evidence.
 
Jez
> The answer to this is very simple: by interfaith dialogue. The Muslim initiative on A Common Word is a great step forward in its attempt to tease out by dialogue what is implied by love of God and love of neighbour.
> 13:5 And if thou wonderest, then wondrous is their saying: When we are dust, are we then forsooth (to be raised) in a new creation ? Such are they who disbelieve in their Lord; such have carcans on their necks; such are rightful owners of the Fire, they will abide therein.
> 9:2 Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance).
that's, like, 2 random openings of the Quran
 
@Jez: Do you frequent Pharyngula?
 
Jez
i wouldn't say 'frequent'
 
@Jez — Are you familiar with that recent letter to Emma B. story?
 
Jez
6:16 PM
no
 
Click, read, click, read, what's your opinion?
 
This is a good resource for some stats from surveys:
> According to Gallup and Lindsay (1999:121), 39% of the British do not believe in God or a “Higher Power,” up from 24% in 1979. According to Bruce (2002) and Gill et al (1998), survey data from the 1960s found that 79% of the British held a belief in God, but this dropped down to 68% in surveys taken in the 1990s; whereas only 10% answered that they “don’t believe in God” in the 1960s, this percentage had almost tripled to 27% in the 1990s.
> According to Bruce (2001), surveys in the 1950s found that only 2% of the British replied they did not believe in God; that percentage was up to 27% in the 1990s.
And this only includes pure atheism or strong professed irreligion (I think); I believe the increase in irreligion among intermediary stages between atheism and fanaticism shows an even stronger development.
> According to CUNY’s 2001 American Religious Identification Survey, 14% of Americans claim “no religion” in terms of self-identification, up from 8% in 1990. Finally, according to Norris and Inglehart (2004:90), the percentage of people believing in God over the past 50 years has declined by 33% in Sweden, 22% in the Netherlands, 20% in Australia, 19% in Norway, 18% in Denmark, 16.5% in Britain, 12% in Greece, 11% in Belgium, 7% in Canada, and 3% in Japan.
So the trend is visible in America as well: they're just a bit behind.
 
Jez
Ken Ham... Ham & Bacon?
my opinion is predictable. Ken Ham is an idiot.
i've seen him before. he looks like a caveman, and has the education and mental capacity of a challenged one.
 
6:33 PM
> Since 1989, Ham has frequently made the comment, "Were you there?" regarding the origins of life and evolution
© Wiki
 
Jez
he probably was
maybe he's just looking for someone to re-live old times with
 
haha
 
Jez
6:45 PM
Blair does make me think in one regard, though; I'm always asking myself whether he can really believe in his doublespeak, or whether it's all an act? I still haven't come to an answer.
The thing is, I wouldn't be surprised if he has read the Quran. Not to acknowledge after that that it spews hatred and is in opposition to equality and modern morality involves a level of mental disconnect that I would associate with mental illness.
...or purposeful deceit.
 
Isn't the OT just as violent and aggressive?
That is just how primitive cultures often work. It is reflected in their writings.
Now I'm going to the store. I will leave a question with @Vitaly: What is a religion? What constitutes, say, Christianity? A good answer would be reductionist and complete, while indicating the vaguer boundaries.
 
Wow…
@Cerberus — I think you are better off trying to ask exactly that question (reductionist &c) on LW. Even though I am not sure it won't be downvoted into oblivion.
 
7:06 PM
Question "Do you believe in God?" does not mean " Do you believe in existence of God?" This question mean: do you build your life in accordance with Gods rules?
 
“Do you associate yourself with a particular tribe?”
 
7:23 PM
@Vitaly Okay, that is fairly reductionist. But is it a useful criterion for judging people? Those that associate themselves with "Islam" hold wildly differing beliefs and lead vastly different lives.
 
that wasn't my answer, though I have a hunch that the word tribalism will be mentioned on LW if you actually ask that question over there
 
Right.
My point is that people judging a certain "religion" should be much more precise that they usually are, and they should know exactly what people believe and how they act when judging them.
 
i just group every set of beliefs that doesn't match the territory sufficiently well into a single heap, and as it happens, religions of various sorts tend to be the most noticeable of them in terms of harmfulness and wrongness and popularity
though some people on LW point out that there are more harmful beliefs that are wrong
 
"...religions of various sorts tend to be the most noticeable of them in terms of harmfulness and wrongness and popularity" — what do you mean exactly?
 
the most noticeable of them: in the upper half of a group sorted by some criterion in ascending order
harmfulness: preventing useful stuff like people acquiring good maps of the territory, certain research programmes like embryo and stem cell research, etc
popularity: held by more than 20 per cent of people in developed countries
 
7:39 PM
Eh, I'm sorry, but I still don't understand. I suspect your sentence is too complex for my meagre brains.
 
wrongness: in the upper half of belief systems held by people (at the time of my writing this) sorted by their Levenshtein distance from the belief system that matches the territory best (among all belief systems held by people at the time of my writing this), in ascending order
 
Perhaps it is the structure of the sentence, not the definitions of its nouns?
And some definitions lead to new questions: what is territory? What is Levenshtein?
 
territory = reality
The map–territory relation describes the relationship between an object and a representation of that object, as in the relation between a geographical territory and a map of it. Polish-American scientist and philosopher Alfred Korzybski remarked that "the map is not the territory," encapsulating his view that an abstraction derived from something, or a reaction to it, is not the thing itself. For example, the pain from a stone falling on one's foot is not the actual stone, it's one's perception of the stone; one's opinion of a politician, favorable or unfavorable, is not that person; and s...
In information theory and computer science, the Levenshtein distance is a metric for measuring the amount of difference between two sequences (i.e. an edit distance). The term edit distance is often used to refer specifically to Levenshtein distance. The Levenshtein distance between two strings is defined as the minimum number of edits needed to transform one string into the other, with the allowable edit operations being insertion, deletion, or substitution of a single character. It is named after Vladimir Levenshtein, who considered this distance in 1965. Example For example, the Leven...
 
Right.
 
Jez
and, and.... what is LW?
 
7:46 PM
I'm sorry, but I still have no idea what you mean.
 
@Jez — That's easy! LessWrong.
 
Putting it in short sentences might help... but perhaps it isn't terribly important.
 
@Cerberus — I dunno, I am really out of my comfort zone here, English-wise.
 
Understandable. It is a complex subject. But short sentences always help...
 
Jez
huh
what is @Vitaly 's first language
 
7:48 PM
Russky.
 
8:02 PM
@Cerberus — Suppose we have a list of differing beliefs (or belief systems). We sort those beliefs in ascending order by a given criterion. We now have a sorted list of beliefs. We can divide that list in two halves: the lower half and the upper half. If a particular belief is in the upper half, we can apply the word noticeable.
 
Right.
 
@Cerberus — Now we have three criteria by which to sort that list: harmfulness, popularity, and wrongness.
 
Got it.
 
@Cerberus — The harmfulness criterion I define thus: the amount of damage a belief (or belief system) does and the amount of prospective good stuff it prevents. Examples of damage include murders in the name of some deity, preventing people from acquiring a more correct view of reality (map of the territory). Examples of good stuff it prevents: stem cell and embryo research.
@Cerberus — The popularity criterion: the percentage of people holding the belief in question.
 
Okay, I understand all you're saying so far.
But how exactly do you define "belief"?
Each person has various beliefs that he might give various labels.
 
8:11 PM
@Cerberus — The wrongness criterion. Suppose we represent all belief systems held by people at the time of my writing this as strings of bits (e.g. the belief “apples exist” can be either true or false—matching the territory or not matching the territory— bits 1 and 0 respectively). If a belief system is correct for everything except that it states that apples do not exist, it takes 1 (one) edit to make it match the territory (specifically, flipping that apples exist bit).
The Levenshtein distance can be roughly defined as the number of such edits one needs to perform in order to change some string into another (flipping bits, deleting them, and adding them).
 
Okay, I understand.
 
'Suuuup?
Oh no, we're talking belief systems? I'll try back soon...
 
Now suppose we have a list of all belief systems held by all people at the time of my writing this, and on that list, we have one belief system that matches the territory best of all belief systems on that list.
 
But is this scale you suggest useful in defining "religion X"? Is it useful in defining the religion of a certain individual? 1. What counts as a "belief"? 2. What if a certain religious person has no religious beliefs?
@MrDisappointment Yeah I asked the question, "what is a religion?".
 
So, we sort that list in ascending order by the Levenshtein distance required to transform each one of those belief systems separately into the belief system that matches the territory best. The upper half of that sorted list will be the top 50% wrongest belief systems.
 
8:14 PM
This is quite different from the "tribes" criterion.
 
That's easy, a religion is a cult.
 
And what is that?
 
Mm, sorry, you've got no quarters left.
 
So, suppose that we have sorted the list of all belief systems thrice, in accordance to those three criteria I have defined.
 
(For the record: I don't have the answer. But I think the concept of "religion" is one of the most complex and ill-defined ones in existence.)
 
8:16 PM
On a more serious note though, it certainly is interesting, and a conversation I've had many times - I might just chip in if y'all are still trumped when I get back.
 
So now we have three upper halves taken from the three lists, and in my book religions tend to appear in those halves consistently, thus noticeable.
 
:) btw I'm also Vitaly but with spelling Vitali
 
what 's ttys?
 
@MrDisappointment Hehe ok.
 
8:18 PM
@Cerberus: Note that I am not trying to define religion. I was just answering your question. I am done, I think.
 
I'll pose a question for you to ponder before I leave though...
Removing all 'known' religions from our list, is science a religion?
 
@Vitaly Haha, yes, you are done. You have explained how you would categorize systems of beliefs, and how each religion often displays similar degrees of wrongness, popularity, and harmfulness.
 
I like Freeman Dyson approach to the subj: Dyson strongly opposes reductionism.[citation needed] He is a non-denominational Christian and has attended various churches from Presbyterian to Roman Catholic. Regarding doctrinal or Christological issues, he has said "I am neither a saint nor a theologian. To me, good works are more important than theology."[36]

Science and religion are two windows that people look through, trying to understand the big universe outside, trying to understand why we are here. The two windows give different views, but they look out at the same universe. Both views
 
@Vitaly It is a controversial statement.
 
@Cerberus — …what?
 
8:21 PM
key phrase: Science and religion are two windows that people look through, trying to understand the big universe outside,
 
@Vitaly That those three properties of systems of beliefs correlate.
 
@Cerberus — I have never said they correlate.
 
@Vitaly You did? Did I interpret you incorrectly here:
2 mins ago, by Cerberus
@Vitaly Haha, yes, you are done. You have explained how you would categorize systems of beliefs, and how each religion often displays similar degrees of wrongness, popularity, and harmfulness.
 
hardly you know who WHO Freeman Dyson is
 
I.e. more wrong = higher chance of being more popular, etc. etc.
 
8:24 PM
57 mins ago, by Cerberus
My point is that people judging a certain "religion" should be much more precise that they usually are, and they should know exactly what people believe and how they act when judging them.
 
@trg787 To be honest, I had never heard of him...
 
55 mins ago, by Vitaly
i just group every set of beliefs that doesn't match the territory sufficiently well into a single heap, and as it happens, religions of various sorts tend to be the most noticeable of them in terms of harmfulness and wrongness and popularity
 
It's pity @Cerberus
 
@Vitaly Well, you equate "a religion" with "a set of beliefs". That is exactly what I find problematic.
By the way, I read that diagrammed summary of a certain brain-storming session on exercises in "rationality" from LW, and I liked it.
 
better to discuss English, I have some questions in store... Let me think for a while
 
8:27 PM
@trg787 — 1. I know. 2. Argument from authority. 3. Outside the laboratory.
@Cerberus — Hm? Care to share it? I can't seem to remember anything that would fit your description.
 
Jez
Hmm, I just thought of a good analogy of the God that Christians paint. A 'loving' mother who stands on the sidewalk, whispering to her child in the road that it might want to get out of the way of the car coming at it at 100MPH. And sighing quietly when it dies.
By the way, she had half an hour to save it.
 
Hehe.
@Vitaly Working on it...
@Jez Some "Christians" would agree and therefore reject both predestination and divine omnipotence.
I'm trying to upload that "Mindmap" about retionality exercises to Imageshack, but my program that is supposed to do it is behaving badly.
 
Jez
@Cerberus How exceedingly convenient. A god so powerful He can do almost anything... except decide what humans think. Even though he created them.
That is a hand-crafted situation.
 
@Cerberus — Try imgur.
 
Jez
Hell, to an extent, humans can decide what humans think. With advanced tech, we'll probably be able to control every thought.
Yet god can't? Ridiculous beyond belief.
 
8:33 PM
I just hate having to find files through the Windows file dialogue; I always search them with Everything and upload them by context menu. But that failed twice.
@Jez True. But ways around it can no doubt be found. Human reasoning can surmount the greatest barriers.
 
Ummm, that's your own work? Or where was it originally?
 
For those whose mom tounhg is English: in my school I learned French. In the institute I was shoked when was said that letter "i" read as "ai"
 
@Vitaly No, it is the thing I read on LW I mentioned. Don't have the link where it came from.
 
@Cerberus — Could you possibly remember where exactly you encountered it on LW?
Awww.
 
Jez
@Cerberus No, no way around its absurdity can be found. I invite you to find one way.
 
8:37 PM
@Vitaly Sure, let me search...
 
@Jez I thought about that and actually started looking into it. I'm pretty sure there is no connection. Whatever you may think of Ken Ham the attitudes are different and I'm pretty sure Bacon is a good deal younger.
 
@Jez This is going to be a hit and run comment, so accept my apologies before hand. I have only read through some of today's chat log but this comment caught my attention. I'm going to have to run in a sec, so I won't even be able to engage but I promise to be around....
 
@Cerberus — Thanks.
 
Jez
comment or joke?
 
8:40 PM
@Caleb Haha, thanks.
 
Jez
o.O
 
I believe H&B is not a native speaker?
The other Ham is?
 
Jez
H&B is australian
 
Hmm... an immigrant?
 
Jez
if a badly-spoken immigrant can get mod powerz on EL&U then you guys are doing something wrong
 
8:41 PM
Huh?
 
@Jez If that analogy bore any resemblance to the God of Christianity I would run far far away. And it may resemble cultural Christianity, but not the real thing. In the real thing the mother sees the car coming, knows the kid can't run fast enough to get out of the way, so runs herself, pushes the kid out of the way and dies in the kids place.
 
@Jez What mod powers? You mean just the power that comes with high rep? Sure, that's how SE works... not my idea, but I've never seen anyone abusing those.
 
Jez
@Caleb "access to moderator tools"
 
@Jez Right, those just come with high rep.
 
Jez
8:43 PM
@Caleb the intervening mother was precisely the mother I was contrasting the Christian god with.
where is that mother in my life? I don't see her, I don't feel her, I don't hear her.
 
In that very same place as Prometheus in the picture I have just posted.
 
@Vitaly Exactly. Christians shouldn't whine when we nail 'em.
 
@Jez I catch your drift, but it's more complicated than that because moderators have rules they have to comply to as well. They can't just be evil because they have the power.
 
Besides, I don't think H&B is evil at all?
By the way, has anyone judged the quality of Ham's English and compared it with H&B's?
(I haven't.)
 
Jez
i'm surprised his horse Q&A hasn't more followers
 
8:47 PM
@Cerberus I've met Ham in person. It was quite a few years ago, but from memory and reading some materials I'd say his English isn't great. But isn't broken in different ways than Bacon's. And I think @kit was on track with the hot-headed teenager syndrome.
@Jez He introduces himself as father. And the intervention is pretty blatant but most folks fight it pretty hard.
 
Jez
blatant?
you've got to be kidding. it's not even there, let alone blatant.
by definition, if it were blatent, I'd have to be thinking, "Wow, I know that god did that, but I refuse to accept it."
I am not thinking that, ergo it is not blatant.
 
The intervention of Prometheus was blatant. We have fire! What other proof do you need!?
 
@Caleb "But isn't broken in different ways than Bacon's." What do you mean exactly? It is broken in different ways? — Did Kit call H&B a hot-headed teenager?
 
@Cerberus Sorry, me english not too gut tuday, me fingurs r briken. :) Yes I meant "it is broken in different ways."
@Cerberus And search the chat to check that I'm attributing that right, but yes I think so.
 
@Caleb Hehe. Okay, that's what I thought.
Who suggested that they were one, by the way? (Whoever did probably based it on the link on H&B's profile.)
 
8:56 PM
@Jez Actually I was serious :) But at least we agree about what you'd have to be thinking.
And NOW you're thinking that that's a contradiction, but I don't have time tonight to try to explain, this is where the hit and run part comes in.
 
Jez
heh
well i know what i'm thinking so your trying to convince me i'm thinking that i'm actively denying a blatant existence of god will fail.
 
@Jez — It's okay, @Caleb never answered my question either — he had to run the other day too.
@Cerberus: Let me know if you actually post your religion question on LW in the Discussion area. I'd be interested in seeing the answers comments.
 
@Vitaly Oh, can we post things there?
 
@Cerberus That would have been in 1/2 jest from Jez here
 
@Caleb Right... I thought he referred to some previous insinuations...
 
8:59 PM
@Jez No I realize you're not, and that's just the problem issue ... but again another time. I have to hit the sack.
 
@Cerberus — LW: Discussion area
 
Jez
ok. but realize that you're really wanting to have sex with 3 clowns. you just deny it so effectively you don't realize you're thinking it.
2
 
@Cerberus Maybe
 
@Jez Hmm this opens perspectives...
 
Hey now keep it civil folks.
 
9:04 PM
 
@Vitaly I'd be happy to pick up the threads sometime. I'm sorry I didn't get to follow through on more of the threads that got launched when I chimed up.
 
@RegDwight: Welcome to the chat!
@Caleb — OK.
 
@Vitaly I do find the comic funny but if you do think I was being unfair just say so.
@Jez I wasn't trying to say you were actively denying something. It's not like that at all. If we're going to reason together it's going to have to involve a few assumptions about people's integrity. And I don't think you're a psychopath who doesn't know what he's thinking, otherwise there wouldn't be much point in using English or any other language to try to communicate.
Ok I'm actually gone this time so you can talk about me, but don't the chat log so verbose I can never catch up :) Goodnight all.
 
Jez
@Caleb But you said that I had to be knowing that god did something, but refusing to accept it.
 
9:40 PM
Ugh, are you guys still doing the religion topic?
 
Jez
welcome to the Southern US, every day
 
I live in the Southern US
Most of my conversations with people have nothing to do with religion
 
Jez
curious.
that doesn't live up to my stereotype so must be a lie.
 
Eh? Since when was there an, "All conversations in the South are about religion" stereotype?
 
Jez
i've heard it a few times
a lot of politics is based on religion
jesus camp
etc
refuting evolution in school
jesus billboards
 
9:43 PM
Sure, there are those things, but that has little bearing on day-to-day life where I live
As in, they have all the other billboards too
 
Jez
sounds like you have little time for other things
 
"You" meaning... me?
Or the south?
 
Jez
the south
 
Ah
Honestly, it is an overblown stereotype
At least, regarding here
People do have that tilt but it isn't like they wander around talking about it all the time
Even religious people have better things to do than talk about God... :P
 
Jez
i had a Jehova's Witness the other day. funny, they seem to visit semi-regularly here.
 
9:45 PM
Now... if you have family here... that makes it true. :P
Jehova's Witness visits everywhere, as far as I know
 
Jez
got a thick leaflet, printed in the US no doubt
 
Meh. I see Jehova's Witness as any other type of door-to-door advertising
They don't bug me any more than the Hoover people :P
 
Jez
well here there isn't really any other door-to-door advertising
they're the only ones
 
@Jez Sure there is. Hoover; security systems; girl scouts
It depends on where you live I guess
 
Jez
i think there's an active Jehova's lot round here because in other areas I've lived I've not seen hide nor hair of them
 
9:48 PM
I've seen them in MN and TX
 
Jez
i'm in the UK
 
Ah
Yeah, no clue what sort of door-to-door activity there is in the UK
Do you guys have Hoover there?
The Hoover Company started out as an American floor care manufacturer based in North Canton, Ohio. It also established a major base in the United Kingdom and for most of the early-and-mid-20th century, it dominated the electric vacuum cleaner industry, to the point where the "hoover" brand name became synonymous with vacuum cleaners and vacuuming in the United Kingdom and Ireland. The Hoover Company in the United States was part of the Whirlpool Corporation but sold in 2006 to Techtronic Industries for $107 million. Hoover UK/Europe split from Hoover U.S. in 1993 and was acquired by ...
Looks like it from that article
 
Jez
do we have Hoover??
Hoover has become a de facto verb meaning vacuum
 
Hm. TIL
 
Jez
but they're not door-to-door, they're in the store
 
9:51 PM
In the US, they have a notorious door-to-door scheme
Wait...
No, I am thinking of Kirby
D'oh
The Kirby Company is a manufacturer of vacuum cleaners and home cleaning accessories, based in Cleveland, Ohio. It is a subsidiary of the Scott Fetzer Company (also known as Scott & Fetzer) which in turn is part of Berkshire Hathaway. Dealers are located in over 70 countries throughout the world. Since the 1920s, Kirby's products have been sold only door-to-door using in-home demonstrations. Berkshire does not disclose Kirby's sales numbers, but Gene Windfeldt, the CEO from 1988 to 1997, estimated the vacuum sales at $1.1 billion per year in 1999. About 70% of Kirby's vacuum sales are f...
 
Jez
do you have Dyson there?
 
Yeah
 
Jez
now that guy was British
 
Ah
I honestly don't really pay attention to what countries make what :P
 
10:11 PM
Ah, the Kirby! We have that one in Holland as well.
I remember people coming by and trying to sell that to my parents.
 
See? We should never trust our own intuitions, beliefs, or rationality.
Only extreme skepticism would seem warranted at the fundamental level.
 
i'm wow'ing at the sheer technological achievement of performing a double-slit experiment using a molecule as a slit
 
Oh.
Yes, so far as I can judge, remarkable!
By the way, what is your impression of the general atmosphere on LW?
 
@Cerberus — As in?
 
10:27 PM
Well, as in, how intelligent is the general tone? How diverse? How friendly? How exclusive?
 
> Careful; LW doesn't seem to scandalize easily, as this thread hilariously demonstrates as people try to discuss shocking things, and everyone fails to be shocked, so people up the ante by combining cannibalism and pedophilia, and so on, in a positive feedback loop.
—some comment on LW
 
Jez
James Randi:
 
> Attempting to argue their points with them resulting in being told "You should try reading the sequences" rather than them addressing your point.
—RationalWiki about LW
 
Jez
"We heard about a guy in Florida - the poor man - he was on homeopathic medicine and he died of an overdose. He forgot to take his pill."
 
> LW is my personal smarter-than-me hangout of choice.
 
10:35 PM
@Jez I don't get it.
 
—some other comment on LW
 
Jez
@MrHen The more dilute, say homeopaths, the more efficacious
 
I still don't get it.
 
Jez
nothing is infinitely diluted...
 
Maybe I just don't know much about homeopathy...
 
Jez
10:36 PM
 
@Vitaly So... where is LW compared to, say, a few years ago?
Back when I visited there wasn't much interesting happening
It seemed mostly self-help with a rationalist twist
 
@Cerberus: So those three quotations basically summarize it.
@MrHen — How long ago was the back?
 
Right, that pretty much matches my impression.
 
@Vitaly Yeah, those quotes say, "A bunch of smart people standing around pointing at the sequences."
 
They seem intelligent, though very in-crowded.
 
10:39 PM
@Vitaly Let me check
Oh, hey, I have red-orange there :)
 
seriously though, the Sequences are a must
 
Hm, wasn't as long ago as I thought: I left circa Spring 2010
@Vitaly I made it about a third through, I think
I hit a really underwhelming patch
 
I believe EY has written them mostly for the purpose of not wasting any more time in explaining basic things
 
@Vitaly The first packs that I read were great
Let me see if I can remember where I was
I didn't make it to the free will stuff which is what I was mostly interested in
 
When reading those articles (I have read one or two), I mostly got the feeling "yeah, I sort of know and agree already".
 
10:42 PM
so when you are referred to the Sequences, it should pretty much be interpreted as, “We already have that covered well, please don't waste our time.”
 
@Vitaly Yeah, except that is one of the problems with LW, in my opinion
 
It doesn't sound very friendly...
 
But that is a big can of worms that we don't need to deal with now
 
SE^2
 
@Cerberus Most of the regulars I interacted with were actually very nice
 
10:43 PM
@MrHen — 2010? well for one, there are meetups going on, and some actual exercises in instrumental rationality (@Cerberus has recently linked to a mindmap of 5-second-level exercises in rationality)
 
@Vitaly Hm, cool. The exercises sound neat.
 
@MrHen Oh, OK, I will believe you.
 
Alicorn was cool; I remember (her?)
 
wrong text in clipboard :P
that is to say, we are starting on getting applications covered
 
10:46 PM
@Vitaly Ah, awesome
That was what was missing when I was there
 
though I have to admit it's a recent trend (which maybe has something to do with the new Discussion area)
 
To be clear: I don't have a problem with LW
Or the people there
I just got disillusioned because of a few oddball events
 
Applications? As in, software, or as in implementations of theory?
 
And now I am more interested in other things
 
@Cerberus — as in instrumental rationality
 
10:48 PM
@Vitaly Ah, ok. Does it turn up useful stuff?
 
@Cerberus — just go read the Se… article. :P
 
Hehe.
The "recent post"?
 
yup
 
Hmm...
How is that topic different from offering people general suggestions?
I mean, what's so rational about it?
 
“(Based on: Is That Your True Rejection?)”
 
10:56 PM
@Cerberus Yeah, admittedly, as much as I was giving Vitaly crap about the sequences, they really are required reading for the site
 
But there is so much...
 
My earlier comment about where I got stuck was because I was reading them sequentially. I had read the most commonly referred articles.
@Cerberus Yeah. And, unfortunately, not all of them are required reading but it is hard to tell which is which.
 
@MrHen — Duuuuuuuude… ;)
 
@Vitaly Hey, that's new
 
And it says:
> Do not be intimidated, just go ahead and start reading the Sequences
 
10:59 PM
I was honestly tempted to through and edit the hell out of EW's stuff
It is great material but it isn't presented well
(In my opinion.)
 
huh?
 
But that is understandable given how he wrote all of it
 

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