English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Orbling

00:00

Cheddar is the most popular English cheese by a mile.

In various states of maturity, roughly corresponding to that of the person eating it I find.

kiamlaluno

I have eaten Cheddar cheese in USA.

Orbling

You have? Very difficult to get real Cheddar in the US, has to be imported.

The less mature Cheddars are not overly dissimilar to Montrey Jack.

kiamlaluno

@Orbling I just know it was called so. :-)

Orbling

The cheese, not the awesome mouse from Chip 'n' Dale.

RegDwight

Seriously people, now I'm tired and hungry.

You really want to have me outta here!

Orbling

00:02

@kiamlaluno It was probably very similar.

Tired and hungry is a bad combination, it leads to junk food.

RegDwight

@Orbling Not in this house.

Orbling

That reminds me, I came on here for a reason.

kiamlaluno

I have also eaten English muffins.

Orbling

7

Q: What expression do you have in English as a counterpart to Japanese saying “Earthquake, Thunderbolt, Fire and Father"?

As you know, we Japanese experienced tremendous disasters of Magnitude 9 earthquake accompanied by tsunami exceeding 10 meter high in northeastern regions recently. Living in the country always under the threat of big earthquakes, we have two popular saying that come to top of mind when we talk ...

expressions

Comment on the question, from Joe Blow.

What is the policy on this? I think he was being annoying and didn't have a point - why would we want to delete a whole message history?

RegDwight

Still reading...

Orbling

00:05

> "Is it impolite to have an astoundingly extended discussion about an absolutely irrelevant topic? :-) Father meant Father literally. End of story. It's not complicated. I usually just delete my comments if I ask something that was totally incorrect."

He then went on to downvote me for no particularly reason, 3 up, 5 down votes, lol.

kiamlaluno

I wonder what he cares of, if he didn't partecipate, nor was he asked to partecipate.

Orbling

Aye, drive by cretinism.

RegDwight

Mkay.

Well, it's not like he doesn't have a point at all.

Orbling

Just wanted to moan really, and check that we weren't supposed to wipe comments that were "unproductive".

Discussion is at the heart of the site.

RegDwight

Nah. Hold on a sec.

This is not a discussion forum.

It's a Q&A site.

Orbling

00:08

Yes, I've been told that.

On most of SE.

By most mods.

RegDwight

That's what I mean by saying that he does have a point.

But yeah, his tone could be... less aggressive.

Orbling

I still think discussion is what makes this site useful.

RegDwight

Yes, but we have proper channels for that.

Orbling

Where "this site" is SE, as opposed to just EL&U.

RegDwight

Meta and chat.

Orbling

00:09

Aye, but often the clarity of the answer lies in the discussion behind it.

RegDwight

Absolutely.

Orbling

Eliminating other possibilities, refining points.

RegDwight

Yes.

Orbling

Almost all of the discussion does these things.

RegDwight

But those points are then supposed to be incorporated into the Q/A in question.

I delete a lot of stuff that has been dealt with.

And not just mine.

Orbling

00:11

Only I think, if substantial changes to the answer/question are warranted by new information in comments.

Otherwise I think all comments should be retained.

RegDwight

I'm certainly not deleting anything in this thread today, but it could use some trimming.

Orbling

I always think of deletion as barbaric.

RegDwight

That's one reason more not to put important stuff into comments.

Orbling

But the history disappears.

RegDwight

Precisely. Posts have a history. So does meta and chat. That is where important stuff must go.

Because it takes just one coordinated attack by three users to delete any comment.

Orbling

00:13

Cerberus and I may have had a very enlightening exchange on the nature of some aspect of history running to fifty odd comments.

RegDwight

That is too long.

Orbling

Might have taken that long to run out of conversation.

RegDwight

Again, you are not supposed to be holding conversations in comments.

Imagine us having this exchange on the main site.

Orbling

Dynamic medium, socially interactive websites, they evolve as users use them.

I imagine that's why you get the "add show # more comments" links.

RegDwight

@Orbling Yes, but let me make this clear: there are directions in which this site is not supposed to evolve, ever.

The main site, that is.

Here in chat, knock yourself out.

Orbling

00:17

Granted, but like I say, community-based sites tend to evolve irrespective.

RegDwight

Traditional forums are failing at Q&A precisely because they are a weird mix of actual answers and all sorts of discussions.

The whole idea behind StackExchange is to fix that.

Orbling

Well, I agree with taking a tough line on the Q&A, to a point, but not the comments.

RegDwight

Well, nobody goes around deleting stuff willy-nilly.

Orbling

Fair enough, police disruptions, unruly conduct, etc. But I have never seen the need for cleaning services.

Cerberus

I think both sides have a point; but for the Q/A v. comments structure/layout is probably clear enough for me not to be bothered by discussion in comments when I want to know stuff.

RegDwight

00:20

@Orbling That's probably because you don't see the stuff that does get deleted.

Orbling

I do like the phrase, willy-nilly.

Cerberus

Can I see deleted comments?

Orbling

@Cerberus Aye, I think it's sufficiently out of the way.

Cerberus

Agreed.

RegDwight

@Cerberus No. And that's the thing.

Cerberus

00:22

But there are all sorts of other things too that I disagree with on this site. I try to just accept it all. After all, we are sort of guests here.

@RegDwight Oh OK. So are there many more deleted comments than deleted answers?

RegDwight

@Cerberus If I were to hazard a guess -- actually, no, not on this site.

Orbling

@Cerberus See, I question that, heavily. Yes, guests - but the site is its users.

RegDwight

Not sure what the situation is on SO.

@Orbling I am a guest here as much as you are.

I don't make the rules.

I just try to provide guidance.

Cerberus

@Reg: Okay. Well from what I see here, bad answers aren't a very serious problem... or do you disagree?

Orbling

Aye, I'm a bolshy fellow.

RegDwight

00:24

@Cerberus Well, I don't know how many deleted answers you can be bothered looking at.

I have to see them all, more or less.

Orbling

EL&U has a very different mix to most of the other sites.

RegDwight

And read them in their entirety,

Cerberus

@Orbling I don't think that is entirely true. It is partly its users, but also partly the servers and the software and the design that its creators chose.

Orbling

Why I occasionally use the chat here, and actually bother to talk to the decent people here.

RegDwight

@Cerberus I would agree with that.

Cerberus

00:26

@RegDwight I rather mean that they wouldn't be a problem for a reader (yet) if they were just never deleted, because there aren't that many.

Orbling

@Cerberus Partly, yes. I am a software engineer, so know that aspect well. But the site is useless without its user base. Like a hospital with no patients.

RegDwight

@Cerberus Careful. Leaving bad stuff up in the open invites more bad stuff.

Broken windows.

If all those "FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUU you nitwit fag" answers were not deleted, how would you feel about visiting this place?

Cerberus

@Orbling True; but I am willing to comply with most hospital rules, even if there are some that I truly disagree with. Unless it is some thing that is of extreme importance to me, or entirely ridiculous.

Orbling

@RegDwight That only really applies if it gets in to moderator mentality. All about drawing the line in the right place, rather than a lot further up the beach for safety.

Cerberus

@RegDwight Okay, that might be true. I have no idea how strong that effect would be.

Orbling

00:28

@RegDwight More amused?

RegDwight

Well, that's why I post it here in chat, for your amusement.

Orbling

Do we get much of that, out of interest?

RegDwight

But if I go to a site and post a question and the first answer I receive is "fuck off", then I probably will do just that.

Orbling

EL&U seems to be for the most part, fairly academic intellectual.

RegDwight

@Orbling No, those are outliers.

But all of them come literally out of nowhere.

Cerberus

00:29

No, I mean, it is good that bad answers are deleted; just that the site itself, basically its voting system, would already mitigate the problem of bad answers to some extent, because they will quickly move to the bottom of the page after downvoting.

Orbling

@RegDwight Granted. I do tend to come down on people, including mods on some SEs, where they are harsh to n00bs.

RegDwight

You can count on Cerberus not to use the n-word in each of his answers, but you can't expect the same from every drive-by visitor.

Remember that literally anyone can participate.

Cerberus

Which n-word? Nigger? Oops.

RegDwight

You don't even need to log in.

Cerberus

No?

RegDwight

00:30

You can post completely anonymously.

Cerberus

Hmm...

Funny.

RegDwight

Well, you would have 1 rep.

Cerberus

That might be a good way to lower the threshold for new users, as on Wiki.

Orbling

Anonymity I do not like. It has no place on this sort of site.

RegDwight

But actually, remember ElendilTheTall?

Cerberus

00:31

Yes, vaguely?

RegDwight

He got to 3,500 reps without registering.

Orbling

Very well.

Has he gone?

Cerberus

Oh!

RegDwight

Yup.

Vanished.

Orbling

Didn't even know you could do that.

Cerberus

00:32

Then... how does one accumulate anonymous rep? By IP address?

Orbling

I registered before viewing...

RegDwight

@Cerberus Cookies.

Cerberus

I registered before answering; had no idea that wasn't necessary.

RegDwight

That's why you get those countless requests for HALP on MSO.

Orbling

Probably wiped his history.

...and didn't want to accumulate it again.

Cerberus

00:33

So how did he get a username?

RegDwight

"I had 120 reps yesterday, it took me four months to go there, today I log in and I am user51692 and my reps is gone!!!!"

Cerberus

Ahh ok.

RegDwight

@Cerberus You always get a temporary account.

You can't post without an account.

Orbling

With a name?

RegDwight

It's just that the account can be unregistered and with a generic userXXXXX name.

Cerberus

00:33

Okay, but you don't need to log in with that temp acocunt?

Orbling

I well understand the desire not to put people off contributing, but I still feel registration on something like this is sensible to post.

Cerberus

I am usually for increasing barriers only when problems arise that necessitate such barriers, not before...

RegDwight

@Cerberus You do have to "log in" to post, but you can always just throw away your cookie after that, and you don't need to log in to just browse the site.

Orbling

True.

Cerberus

So... if you need to log in, why can't rep be stored in that log-in?

Orbling

00:36

I imagine it is.

RegDwight

The rep and everything is stored.

It's just that if you don't register your temporary account, it will be gone with the cookie.

Which can be twenty years down the line, or tomorrow.

Cerberus

Oh, but... why? Why not just automatically make any temp account permanent then?

RegDwight

You ask me stuff...

Cerberus

I see no advantage in a temp account if you still need to log in?

RegDwight

Probably to facilitate contribution.

Orbling

00:37

You are omniscience aren't you?

RegDwight

I mean, that's what we're talking about the whole time, right? Low barrier to entry.

Orbling

I swear that was in the brief on you....

Cerberus

Yeah I know, not your design...

RegDwight

I'm sure there's a post on MSO that explains this all in minute detail in just three sentences, but I can't be arsed to search for it now.

kiamlaluno

Can those anonymous accounts vote?

Cerberus

00:39

I hope you won't take it personally when people ehm... are a bit inquisitive about the site and its workings; we have no real overlord to badger!

Orbling

Aye, probably from one of the deities.

RegDwight

@kiamlaluno If they have 15+ rep, yes.

Again, Elendil never made it to the Users tab.

But he made it to 3.5k.

Orbling

Poor fool.

Cerberus

Odd.

Orbling

He made some interesting contributions, on Cooking too.

RegDwight

00:40

I think I saw him on some other site just a few weeks ago or so.

Orbling

The best thing about EL&U is that the mods are human.

[Comparatively to other SE]

RegDwight

Feb 17 at 19:27, by Robusto

My humanity was never in doubt. It's @RegDwight who shies away from Turing tests.

Orbling

I'm 80% sure you would get away without being called a computer.

RegDwight

Feb 17 at 18:57, by RegDwight

Okay. Then I'll just point out that Elton John would certainly pass a Turing test. Nudge, nudge.

That's been my argument all along, but Robusto doesn't believe me.

Orbling

Computers are less knowledgeable for a start.

RegDwight

00:43

Not Watson.

He knows everything.

And then some.

Orbling

Aye, but he probably doesn't cross reference as well.

Or understand oblique rants.

RegDwight

I don't understand anything in here.

Orbling

Watson would've told me to FO a few minutes back.

RegDwight

In fact, this room is known as The Incomprehensible Room outside of ELU.

Orbling

LOL, is this the highest volume chat room?

RegDwight

00:45

Not yet.

But we're working on it.

Cerberus

@RegDwight Seriously?

Orbling

Not by people, just by quantity.

Cerberus

Quantity we can produce!

Bla.

Orbling

This is the only chat room I ever bother with, like I say, intelligent, real people, who enjoy talking.

RegDwight

Well, look at the Users tab on the Chat page.

Orbling

00:46

As opposed to those who either want to polish their vanity, halos or are after career advice. Or are just trying to save their career...

RegDwight

You will see Robusto, Cerberus and myself on the very first page.

@Cerberus Yes.

We make way too many translingual jokes.

And people can't even tell which languages those are in.

Cerberus

Hah!

That is pretty cool.

Orbling

Aye, I would hang around more, but a) I only understand Londonese, b) I only get 2-3 hours sleep a day as is, c) people would go off me faster.

RegDwight

@Orbling Oh we have a super-secret room where only the über-intelligent people are allowed, but you can't access it.

Wait.

Cerberus

That we are incomprehensible and that we are high on the list!

RegDwight

00:49

I didn't mean it that way.

Orbling

@RegDwight If you mean mods, then I may have to differ with your definition on one or two words.

RegDwight

@Orbling Well, of course not all mods are created equal.

Cerberus

@Orbling People would go off you? You mean you would provoke them? Nah.

@RegDwight Yeah that was a brilliant post. Had me laughing.

Orbling

@RegDwight Haha, an HTML-related joke, could be a first.

RegDwight

This chat actually is a very evil place. It's just that it's not evil as in "Screw you!" — "No, screw you!!!", but rather as in "Communism!" — "No, Fahrenheit!"

Cerberus

00:53

True that!

Orbling

Well if I told you who I was named after, you would find out my opinion on Communism, but it is definitely Celsius.

Cerberus

Hmm...

RegDwight

Vladimir Ilyitch Orb?

Orbling

@Cerberus Nah, I'm just argumentative, opinionated and only follow rules I've set.

Surprisingly enough, Orbling is not my real name.

RegDwight

Apr 13 at 15:02, by RegDwight

My criteria are unclear and flexible.

Cerberus

00:55

Your real name was easy enough to find on FB...

Orbling

Exactly.

Cerberus

But that still doesn't explain your affinity with Communism!

RegDwight

Rosa Luxembourg.

Orbling

Well, more the earlier form.

Cerberus

Oh?

Orbling

00:57

@RegDwight Do you know, that is the second time I've been compared to her this week!

RegDwight

Baader-Meinhof phenomenon.

Cerberus

Complex, rather?

RegDwight

That's a movie.

Me's talking psychology.

Orbling

Aye, isn't it Baader-Meinhof Complex?

RegDwight

Jinx!

Cerberus

00:58

Oh. I thought you were talking communism.

RegDwight

Yeah well, psychology and that.

Cerberus

So how is she related to Orb's name?

RegDwight

9

A: Word meaning coincidence of reference to the unusual

I think you might be thinking of synchronicity.

Orbling

She isn't, just people believe I'm her reincarnation.

Though I'm not in the same ball park.

RegDwight

See my comment there.

Orbling

01:00

Ah yes, I have that constantly.

RegDwight

And lo and behold, Cerberus replied to it.

But of course the dog doesn't remember anything, as always.

Cerberus

@Reg: Yeah I missed Orb's "this is the second time..."; that's why I thought you were talking about this mysterious connection between Orb's name and communism, which is what your reference to Rosa was probably about...

Orbling

Though I've known of her for some time, just not usually connected.

Memory is for the weak...

...minded.

I forget.

Cerberus

Yeah! I just recreate my thoughts from scratch every time!

Orbling

Aye, first principles omniscience.

Cerberus

01:02

Eh? <-- this is actually a girl's name in Holland; that is, exactly one girl was named Eh in 2010.

Orbling

It's lots of girls' names in Canada.

Cerberus

smells some pun but just can't reach it...

As in, hey, eh, girl, it was nice, last night.

Orbling

They use the word all the time, as a general purpose connective and filler. And yes, you're on to the gist of my lame humour.

RegDwight

Stupid chat disconnected me.

Perhaps I should take that as a sign from above.

Orbling

This chat always seems very reliable, considering.

A sign involving food, bed, and a girl named Eh?

RegDwight

01:06

Well, there have been some outages of the entire data center.

Mar 14 at 22:42, by RegDwight

@Robusto Harr. I was just about to post a stupid reply ("marital infidelity" should be "marital... well, OK, MARTIAL infidelity", or something like that), but it appears it was so stupid that it killed the chat server, and in fact the whole data center in Oregon. Grmpf.

Orbling

@RegDwight Haha, lol. I've heard of a joke bringing the house down, but never electronically.

RegDwight

@Orbling Jeez, you did have to remind me of food, didn't you?

I was all just tired.

But now I'm all hungry all over again.

Cerberus

Oh that is weird. I didn't know the whole data center had troubles.

Orbling

@RegDwight Your priorities are definitely questionable. Bed, a girl named Eh, and you pick up on the munchies.

RegDwight

What's with that Eh girl? I don't get the reference.

Ah

See, had no time to catch up.

Orbling

01:09

That's because you went link dead, and missed and entirely vacuous conversation on Canadians, women, and tangents to things that barely existed.

My colleagues call me Mr Tangent for some reason.

RegDwight

Some crazy Russkies in the 70s insisted on calling their children Спутник (Sputnik) if it was a boy, and Ракета (Rocket) if it was a girl.

Orbling

Bet she goes like a...

RegDwight

I'm a Rocket Man, burning out my fuse up here alone.

Cerberus

How elegant.

Orbling

Aye, you couldn't get away with that here. A girl called Ракета wouldn't get past GCSEs without visiting a midwife.

RegDwight

01:11

Anyhows, people.

Seriously, Orbling, you should drop by more often.

Can't waste my Saturday nights on mythical creatures.

Orbling

Well, when I have time, I do - but I don't like to too much, because I'll get hooked.

Then fired...

RegDwight

Saturday Night's alright for fighting, but not for fighting orblings.

Cerberus

WHAT

I exist!

Perhaps I do not think; but I exist!

Orbling

Boss sits about 5 foot from me, he takes a dim view to any time not spent on the company. Not that I pay the blindest attention to that. But he would notice a flipping great chat window.

Cerberus

Hehe understandable.

RegDwight

01:14

So I guess I'll be calling it a day.

Cerberus

Well, good night!

RegDwight

Yeah, more like morning already.

Orbling

Night night Al.

RegDwight

And still a bunch of LEGO to be sorted before I can go to sleep.

Cerberus

Oh it is only 3 am...

RegDwight

01:14

Because the LEGO is all over the bed.

Orbling

Yay, LEGO.

Cerberus

Again...?

Orbling

Hmm, definitely priorities again.

RegDwight

88

LEGO

Proposed Q&A site for all, young and old, that have questions regarding building tricks, missing instructions sets, want to find particular part, exchange on their great creations.

Currently in commitment.

Cerberus

Yeah.

Lego > sleep > unmentionable activities?

Orbling

01:15

Beds are supposed to be covered in people, or at a pinch, crumbs.

RegDwight

So, just get yourself fired, alluvya, then we can like talk every day and be friends and like unicorns.

Orbling

Sometimes both.

RegDwight

Feb 17 at 21:22, by RegDwight

"The unicorn is a mythical beast," she said, and turned her back on him. The man walked slowly downstairs and out into the garden. The unicorn was still there; now he was browsing among the tulips. "Here, unicorn," said the man, and he pulled up a lily and gave it to him. The unicorn ate it gravely. With a high heart, because there was a unicorn in his garden, the man went upstairs and roused his wife again. "The unicorn," he said,"ate a lily."

Orbling

That is actually a preferable scenario to going in to work all day.

Cerberus

Unicorn!

Yeah that story is nice, especially for a unicorn story.

Orbling

01:17

Aye, some folks fail to see the woods through the trees.

RegDwight

I only quote the bestest stuff.

Except when I quote Robusto.

Night all, I'm out!

Orbling

Speak soon.

Cerberus

Night!

I am defeating enemy tanks.

Orbling

You are? I didn't even know we had enemies, much less that they had armoured transport.

Cerberus

But we do!

kongregate.com/games/synapticon/tyrant?acomplete=tyra

Orbling

01:23

I am looking at this, and resisting.

It looks... persistent.

Cerberus

I'm sorry, too late to delete the link now...

It is quite addictive.

Orbling

Aye, can't afford any more persistent games, or websites.

My free time is around 150% accounted for as is.

Cerberus

Yeah with 2-3 hours sleep you should be... I dunno, sleeping!

Are you in Lindin now?

Orbling

Big place? Lots of people?

Cerberus

I thought you guys pronounced London that way...

Orbling

01:29

The thing most people do not realise about London, is that it has a lot of accents (and even variations on dialect) within it.

The famous London accent is the East End accent.

I pronounce London, as LUN-DON.

Cerberus

Really?

Orbling

Or LUN-DUN if quicker.

Cerberus

Lun as in undone, and don as in ton?

That sounds... odd!

Lun-dun sounds less odd to my admittedly foreign ears.

Orbling

Lun as in undone, yes. LUN-DUN is how I say it predominantly.

Certainly not LINDIN.

Anyhow, yes. Depending on definition.

Cerberus

Okay Lindin is supposed to be a very posh pronunciation I hear people do jokingly.

Lundun sounds like what I might expect; but -don would sounds weird to me...

Orbling

01:37

-don is heading more in to the more urban areas. West Indian influence.

Cerberus

Ah ok.

West Indian, as in the West Indies? Black people? Or people from western India?

Orbling

People from the West Indies.

Their accent is somewhat different, but has a strong influence in certain areas of London.

Cerberus

Okay, so are they of mixed race? Spanish? Black? Native Americans?

I am trying to picture these West Indians! We have all colours here from Surinam.

Even people from Java that came here through Surinam.

Orbling

Well, predominantly black, if you want an ethnic classification.

Cerberus

OK. That's what I though; I think I can picture the accent now.

Would they perhaps also say mahn for man?

Orbling

01:45

There are a great many accent variations on all manner of words. The one I notice most is th-alveolarization, the -> der, with -> wid, etc.

As the rest of London also cocks this up by th-fronting, you end up with a very messed up version in the current youth.

Cerberus

Haha. Yeah the th->d sounds familiar, I think I've heard that.

Orbling

If that wasn't sufficient, we have strong Irish populations here too, and the West Indians also occasionally share their th-stopping trick, which makes three->tree, and such like.

Cerberus

Holland is more or less a paradise of regularity, I think. Not that many really cocked-up accents among most youths.

Orbling

You're lucky. In London, I think you never here quite the same accent twice, native or not.

In fact, any given walk down any street will probably result in you hearing ten languages or more, let alone accents.

Cerberus

Funny. Here an amalgam of Surinam, Moroccan, and lower-class city accents is forming.

You will hear many blonde kids with sharp Moroccan accents.

Orbling

01:51

Aye, we have that with well, whatever happens when you mix 7 million accents together.

London is widely regarded as the most diverse city.

I would say the current youth speak gets most of its input from US gangster culture though sadly.

Cerberus

Oh really? Yeah I am not a big fan of that.

Especially not the gangster part.

I mean, venerating pop idols and actors is one thing; but gangster culture...

Orbling

Aye, I'm not any kind of fan of it.

Cerberus

Then again, things will probably turn out fine.

Parents have always complained about the terrible influence of pop culture...

Kids have always survived pretty well.

Orbling

Possibly. Though when you see some poor imbecile limping down the road, one trouser leg up, one down, waist near the knees, with a scarf round his head and a cap on top. You do have to worry about the future.

Cerberus

Haha, especially the trouser leg: I don't think we have that here!

We do have people on scooters with one leg dangling off the foot platform.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…