English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

00:00

It was just a couple of pages in a reader.

Sometimes I think philosophers could profit from somehow framing their ideas less as though they were meant only for insiders.

Some other arts and sciences suffer from this too.

Joseph Weissman

You have to fall in love with it to "get" it sometimes -- or just to have enough energy, be motivated enough to work through it sufficiently to get it.

But certainly agreed, it's a terrible problem in some ways.

Philosophy has always been written for the 1%

#OccupyTheory

Cerberus

What?

Joseph Weissman

/row row fight the power, etc

Sorry, maybe that did sound strange

Cerberus

@JosephWeissman Well, the 1 % might be acceptable; but I know several other philosophy students who were frustrated by it, so it must be considerably less.

Joseph Weissman

Nietzsche subtitles Thus Spoke Zarathustra: "A Book for Everyone and No One"

Cerberus

00:03

I didn't get the bit about Occupy Theory, the hash, then the /row row power thing.

Joseph Weissman

Philosophy at its best is critical, demystifying

user19161

@Mahnax OK I will try. But it will be very short and with no pictures.

Joseph Weissman

but often what is called "philosophy" ultimately does not serve freedom

user19161

@Cerberus Boo!

Cerberus

@JosephWeissman Agreed.

Joseph Weissman

00:04

but rather the church, the state, the domestication of humanity etc

Cerberus

@JosephWeissman Is freedom the goal?

Not knowledge unto itself?

Joseph Weissman

maybe that's not the clearest or most distinct way to formulate it

Cerberus

Heh.

user19161

@JosephWeissman I see you are symmetrical like me!

Joseph Weissman

i would say learning rather than knowledge should be the goal

might suggest anyway

Cerberus

00:05

You seem to have some idea about a connection between philosophy and freedom that I don't understand entirely, except as in Kant's famous pamphlet for enlightenment.

@JosephWeissman No problems with that.

user19161

@JosephWeissman What is the difference between learning and knowledge?

Cerberus

@JasperLoy Boo!

Joseph Weissman

well, learning is a struggle -- dynamic, engaged

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Booae's all around.

And night all.

Cerberus

Hi!

Aww, bai!

user19161

00:06

@RegDwightѬſ道 Night!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Nix hi, tschöö.

Arrivederci.

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 Don't tell Vitaly, but we're discussing philosophy...

Joseph Weissman

i can knock it off :)

Cerberus

No!

user19161

@JosephWeissman Which leads to knowledge.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

00:07

I didn't see you discussing philosophy.

Only how English were vaguer.

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 phew!

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 It's called common sense.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

In this room, it's called common nonsense.

Joseph Weissman

well, common sense and good sense are part of knowledge

user19161

After all, what is philosophy?

Cerberus

00:08

@JosephWeissman So what do you mean by this link between freedom and phil?

user19161

That is a philosophical question.

Joseph Weissman

learning is about paradoxes -- things that extend beyond the realm of what we currently know

plato took this problem very seriously -- he accepts the basic premise that we can't learn anything we don't already know

there's kind of a paradox about the idea of knowledge in this sense -- and so descartes asks whether knowledge can have any foundation at all

Cerberus

Silly old fool.

Joseph Weissman

...and ends up founding his certainty in his doubt

user19161

I think the greatest philosopher is the Buddha.

Joseph Weissman

00:09

just to suggest that perhaps knowledge is problematic in some ways

user19161

Maybe I will end up a monk some day.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Most of learning is not about paradoxes at all. We spend most of our lives learning very basic, easy-to-grasp, boring stuff. Which is why most people end up bored and dumb.

Cerberus

@JosephWeissman Yeah, and we all know the weaknesses in that...

Joseph Weissman

sure, maybe i'm overstating it

but i think it is important to oppose paradox to good and common sense

user19161

We learn wrong things from the world everyday so most people become sillier as they age.

Joseph Weissman

00:10

it stretches the boundaries of what can be thought, felt, experienced, etc

i think this is part of what philosophy does in many ways

Cerberus

Oppose paradox to good? Or to good sense?

user19161

It seems there can be no clear definition of philosophy or metaphysics.

Joseph Weissman

well, paradox to both common AND good -- and i might suggest that sense itself has a paradoxical structure

Cerberus

To me, philosophy is basically rigorous thinking about anything.

Joseph Weissman

can there be a "clear" definition of anything?

user19161

00:10

Just like we cannot define love or mathematics.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Anyhooes me hearties, ima go to bed.

Over and out.

Cerberus

@JosephWeissman It can be clear in that we just pick a definition that we like and work with that.

user19161

In fact we cannot even define definition.

user19161

That is why well-defined is not well-defined.

Joseph Weissman

well we can still talk about the structure of sense

identify different types of relationships within propositions

user19161

00:12

Indeed we can talk and try to understand each other with intuition.

Joseph Weissman

definition in @Cerberus sense above is pure "denotation" or designation, relating a proposition to an external state of affairs

but sense can also have the structure of manifestation

Cerberus

Doesn't even need to be external.

Joseph Weissman

where the proposition is related to the beliefs and desires of the speaker

Cerberus

Is that what you mean by manifestation?

Joseph Weissman

finally, we can also "signify" -- relate propositions to other propositions

yes

Cerberus

00:14

OK.

Joseph Weissman

this is at least how Deleuze talks about the structure of sense (in "Logic of Sense")

Cerberus

I'm fine with those three categories.

Joseph Weissman

so objects, subjects or other propositions, right?

Cerberus

Maybe I should H & A again.

Joseph Weissman

but each of them can be taken to be primary

Cerberus

00:15

@JosephWeissman Right, though perhaps what you call "subject" should be classed under "object".

Joseph Weissman

interesting, how do you mean?

Cerberus

When you define some internal feeling, you are defining it qua object, not qua subject.

Joseph Weissman

"i'm sad" = "there exists a sadness such that i am feeling it"

?

Cerberus

Even when you define the self, you define it as an object of your thinking.

@JosephWeissman Yeah, I'm not sure I would call that subjective, not as something qualitatively different from defining, say, rain.

Joseph Weissman

but we can just as easily say the "I" is primary, right?

Cerberus

00:18

Well, not as something you can define, not to me.

The I is more like a nous poietikos.

If you study it, you make it into an object on a meta level.

If that makes sense at all.

Joseph Weissman

sure; my suggestion would be that any of these structures of sense may be taken to be first and the cause of the others

the self, the world, language

Cerberus

Cause in what sense?

Joseph Weissman

well, that each is prior to the others and determines them

it's a paradox

Cerberus

Heh.

I'm not sure.

Joseph Weissman

anyway, sorry for the hijack of your room :)

(stanford encyclopedia of philosophy covers this very well if you'd like to hear more about the deleuze: plato.stanford.edu/entries/deleuze/#LogSen)

Cerberus

00:23

@JosephWeissman Don't be!

user19161

@JosephWeissman No this room is 90 per cent off-topic.

Cerberus

Nothing was going on.

@JosephWeissman OK thanks for the link.

By the way, I wonder how the SEP came to be the world's foremost encyclopaedia of philosophy.

user19161

It's still spooky that we are both symmetrical @joseph!

Cerberus

It is quite good and complete. Everyone seems to be using it.

user19161

@Cerberus You are highly asymmetrical!

Cerberus

00:28

?

user19161

@Cerberus I mean the avatar.

Cerberus

Ah, thanks.

user19161

By Mahnax's request I will blog about KFC in my third post, but only a paragraph or two.

user19161

Happy December everyone!

user19161

@cerb What is the most beautiful city in Europe in thy opinion?

Cerberus

00:36

Ehh I couldn't say, really.

I like water. I dislike modernist architecture.

The older, the better.

user19161

I ask because I saw a sentence which says it is Prague.

Cerberus

Heh.

user19161

I had thought it was Paris.

Cerberus

Well, there are probably 10,000 very beautiful cities in Europe.

I couldn't decide.

Some very small cities are among the most beautiful.

Like Carcasonne, Rocamadour...

user19161

OK, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Cerberus

00:38

It also depends on whether you take the entire city, or just a part of it that you like to walk around in.

Most larger cities have ugly neighbourhoods.

user19161

@Cerberus neighbourhoods

Cerberus

Venice and Amsterdam are among my favourites too.

user19161

Some confuse Vienna and Venice.

Cerberus

Vienna is nice too, but a bit too ponderous for me.

@JasperLoy What do you mean?

Totally different architecture and landscape.

user19161

@Cerberus Since they are spelled similarly.

Cerberus

00:40

What does that have to do with it?

user19161

They call one when they mean the other.

Cerberus

They look completely different.

@JasperLoy But why?

user19161

@Cerberus They just mixed up the name, like maybe one day I call you Matt instead, understand?

Cerberus

It is like confusing Austria and Australia.

@JasperLoy Oh, right.

user19161

@Cerberus Ah yes that too!

user19161

00:44

0

Q: Why was this question closed?

The question in question: What is a less offensive synonym for "hypocrite"? It was closed as "not constructive." (it also got downvoted). Why? There's a fairly similar question that not only stayed open, but got a good amount of upvotes: What is a less offensive synonym for "reta...

Cerberus

user19161

I like sim's answer: I can't speak for the others who closed.

user19161

Actually I confess sometimes I just go with the first person who closes it.

Cerberus

user19161

If one person has voted to close, chances are, the question isn't great.

user19161

00:45

@Cerberus Where is this?

Cerberus

Can you guess?

Both are in the same city.

user19161

@Cerberus Venice?

Cerberus

Ding!

Now tell me that's not pretty.

user19161

I expected you to say ding!

Cerberus

Ding's mah thing.

user19161

00:49

Then I will say dang dong dung deng!

Cerberus

So that's Venice for you.

user19161

I will now give you a nice song with Venice as pictures.

user19161

►

user19161

Andrea Bocelli's Because We Believe.

Cerberus

Nice.

So you know Venice!

user19161

00:54

No I don't know Venice, I only know about the video!

user19161

V for video, V for Venice!

user19161

But my next life I want to be born in Germany.

Cerberus

user19161

►

Cerberus

Where do you think the pictures above are?

user19161

00:59

Luciano Pavarotti's O Sole Mio.

user19161

@Cerberus Looks familiar, let me think.

Cerberus

Hint: it is very different from Venice.

user19161

@Cerberus Prague?

Cerberus

Nope.

It is in between Prague and Venice.

user19161

I have seen it somewhere but can't recall.

Kitḫ

01:02

Well, the last one says what it is.

Cerberus

Shh cheatress.

Kitḫ

I didn't mean to!

It was right there in the address bar!

Cerberus

I know, it is in one's nature.

user19161

@Kitḫ I read that!

Cerberus

Prague is very nice too, judging from the pictures.

user19161

01:04

No more ding!

user19161

@Cerberus Libido?

Cerberus

I like.

user19161

@Cerberus Now we are omitting the object of the verb as well.

Cerberus

"We"?

user19161

@Cerberus This reminds me of the seven bridges of Konigsberg.

Cerberus

01:07

Oh!

Kitḫ

@Cerberus I am not a cheater!

Cerberus

I have no idea what Königsberg looks like!

Must. Know.

@Kitḫ I didn't say you were.

user19161

@Cerberus I have no idea too. Just that I saw the bridge.

Cerberus

@JasperLoy Both Prague!

user19161

@Cerberus Czech girls are beautiful.

Cerberus

01:09

Pic or it didn't happen.

user19161

@Cerberus What? The Czech?

Cerberus

The girls!

user19161

@Cerberus They didn't happen, but they are all over the internet...

Kitḫ

Hmm. I'm thinking a burrito would be really tasty right now...

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Yay!!

@JasperLoy Yay!!

I am not terribly impressed with Königsberg so far.

Why did you mention it again?

user19161

01:13

2

Q: What is a less offensive synonym for "hypocrite"?

Is there a word that describe a person who doesn't "practice what they preach"? Basically, is there a synonym for "hypocrite" that carries less pejorative connotations? For example, let's say a friend of mine says he is a Christian. Yet he engages in behaviors considered sins by the Bible, maki...

single-word-requests vocabulary politeness

Kitḫ

@Cerberus I liked her books.

user19161

@Cerberus No yay! You should yay only if it did happen!

Cerberus

@Kitḫ What? Who?

Kitḫ

E. L. Konigsburg

Elaine Lobl Konigsburg (born February 10, 1930 in New York City) is an American author and illustrator of children's books and young adult fiction. She is one of five authors to win two Newbery Medals, awarded annually for one contribution to American children's literature. Her first two manuscripts were submitted to editor Jean E. Karl at Atheneum Books, accepted, and published in 1967: Jennifer, Hecate, Macbeth, William McKinley, and Me, Elizabeth and From the Mixed-Up Files of Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler. [http://www.nytimes.com/2000/04/03/arts/jean-karl-72-a-publisher-of-books-for-chil...

user19161

Please reopen the above question for OP's sake. Maybe I should not have closed it...

Cerberus

01:16

@Kitḫ Ah, that sounds much better.

user19161

Seven Bridges of Königsberg

The Seven Bridges of Königsberg is a historically notable problem in mathematics. Its negative resolution by Leonhard Euler in 1735 laid the foundations of graph theory and prefigured the idea of topology. The city of Königsberg in Prussia (now Kaliningrad, Russia) was set on both sides of the Pregel River, and included two large islands which were connected to each other and the mainland by seven bridges. The problem was to find a walk through the city that would cross each bridge once and only once. The islands could not be reached by any route other than the bridges, and every bridge...

Cerberus

Problem is, Königsberg was badly firebombed during the War.

user19161

It is a problem in graph theory.

Kitḫ

@Cerberus A really terrific author of young adult fiction.

And how I learned that PM stood for post meridian.

user19161

@Kitḫ meridiem

user19161

01:19

Meridian (geography)

A meridian (or line of longitude) is an imaginary line on the Earth's surface from the North Pole to the South Pole that connects all locations along it with a given longitude. The position of a point along the meridian is given by its latitude. Each meridian is perpendicular to all circles of latitude. Each is also the same size, being half of a great circle on the Earth's surface and therefore measuring 20,003.93 km (12,429.9 miles). The meridian through Greenwich, England, also called the Prime Meridian was set at zero degrees of longitude, with other meridians being defined by t...

user19161

meridian != meridiem

user19161

Then there is the hotel Le Meridien.

user19161

So pretty confusing.

user19161

Le Méridien

Le Méridien is an international hotel brand with a European perspective, formerly headquartered in the United Kingdom, with 130 properties. It is owned by Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide. Le Méridien is a global hotel chain with a portfolio of more than 120 hotels in over 50 countries worldwide. History The Le Méridien brand was established in 1972 by Air France "to provide a home away from home for its customers." The first Le Méridien property was a 1,000-room hotel in Paris — Le Méridien Etoile. Within two years of operation the group had 10 hotels in Europe and Africa. Within...

user19161

12-hour clock

{| align="right" class="wikitable" style="margin: 0 0 2em 2em; font-size: 95%" !colspan="2"|Clock system |- !12-hour||24-hour |- |midnight(start of day)12:00*||00:00 |- |12:59 a.m.||00:59 |- | 1:00 a.m.||01:00 |- | 2:00 a.m.||02:00 |- style="font-size: 150%" |…||… |- |10:00 a.m.||10:00 |- |11:00 a.m.||11:00 |- |11:59 a.m.||11:59 |- |12:00 noon*||12:00 |- |12:01 p.m.||12:01 |- |12:59 p.m.||12:59 |- | 1:00 p.m.||13:00 |- | 2:00 p.m.||14:00 |- style="font-size: 150%" |…||… |- |10:00 p.m.||22:00 |- |11:00 p.m.||23:00 |- |11:59 p.m.||23:59 |- |midnigh...

Kitḫ

01:21

@JasperLoy No, meridian.

eats burrito

Cerberus

wants to eat burrito

user19161

@Kitḫ Maybe a result of Latin perversion. I don't trust these brandless dictionaries.

user19161

@cerb Since you are the Latin scholar should it be meridiem in am/pm?

Kitḫ

@Cerberus Want recipe? Super easy. Ten minutes.

Cerberus

The thing is, post meridiem is an adverbial constituent, whereas postmeridian is an adjective.

Kitḫ

01:24

I invented it yesterday.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Yes!

user19161

@Cerberus There, there.

Kitḫ

@Cerberus Ground beef, black beans, garlic, cumin, white pepper, tomato sauce.

Cerberus

Sounds good!

No guacamole?

No cheese?

Kitḫ

It's awesome.

Cerberus

01:26

No sour cream?

Kitḫ

That's just the filling.

user19161

@Cerberus I like that!

Cerberus

Ahhhh now we're talking!

Kitḫ

You can put whatever else you like on it.

Cerberus

Can I? Yay!

user19161

01:26

I like Taco Bell fries with sour cream and cheese.

user19161

Taco Bell is always adjacent to KFC, same boss.

Cerberus

Do you eat enough vitamins?

If you're always eating at snack bars...

user19161

I take a multivitamin pill everyday.

user19161

No I seldom take fast food nowadays.

Kitḫ

Beer anyone?

Cerberus

01:28

I'm not sure pills are good substitutes. It is more complicated than that.

Kitḫ

I'm having a Leinenkugel.

Cerberus

Yeah!

I don't know what it is, but it sounds good!

user19161

I prefer wine...

Kitḫ

hands @Cerb a beer

user19161

Though I do not use Wine.

Cerberus

01:28

slobbers beer

Kitḫ

@Cerberus It is a wheat beer.

user19161

Though I do whine.

Cerberus

Oh, good!

Kitḫ

@JasperLoy Um, I have a couple of reds. Shiraz?

Pinot noir?

Cerberus

Ever since you explained to me that it is like what we call white beer, I'm your man on the wheat beer.

Kitḫ

01:29

I also have a GSM, if you'd rather.

user19161

@Kitḫ Anything, I am no expert!

Cerberus

I'll take both thank you.

Kitḫ

decants red wine for @Jasper

user19161

Actually I don't drink much.

Cerberus

GSM?

Kitḫ

01:29

@Cerberus Heathen.

Cerberus

Is that a grape?

user19161

But my friends influenced me.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Not in the same glass!

user19161

They give me some bottles as gifts now and then...

Kitḫ

@Cerberus Grenache, Shiraz, M...um, BRB.

Cerberus

01:30

Merlot?

So a mixture.

Kitḫ

Mourvedre.

Yes, a blend.

Really excellent.

Robusto

@Reg: Can't log into WMT for some reason.

Kitḫ

And actually Syrah, not Shiraz.

Cerberus

OK.

user19161

I still don't understand why sometimes the OP accepts answer without upvoting even though he has not run out of votes.

Cerberus

01:32

@Robusto Hmm works for me.

Kitḫ

Hey, did you star my recipe?

user19161

@Robusto There was a message just now saying chat will undergo maintenance so maybe that's why.

Robusto

It said that this afternoon.

user19161

@Kitḫ Probably Cerb's doing.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Yeah, it qualified as interesting.

Robusto

01:33

Nah, it's up now. Laterz.

Kitḫ

The white pepper is the secret ingredient. Don't tell anyone.

Cerberus

OK.

cuts out tongue

user19161

I prefer black pepper.

user19161

But green peppers and red peppers taste the same to my naive tongue.

Kitḫ

Black pepper is fine, but all wrong for this recipe.

Cerberus

01:34

So how long do you put the tortilla in the oven?

Kitḫ

Do not use black pepper in the burrito mix.

I didn't put my tortillas in the oven.

Cerberus

Oh.

OK.

Kitḫ

Did you want to bake the burritos?

Because I'd say about 10 minutes in a preheated oven probably.

Cerberus

Wait maybe I don't know what a burrito is.

No, I meant just the tortilla.

Kitḫ

If you want to just steam the tortillas to soften them, you can wrap them in damp paper towels and bake for like, 2 minutes.

user19161

01:35

It is interesting how 12345679 times 9 gives 111111111.

Kitḫ

Also, you can steam them easily in the microwave.

Cerberus

Soften? I though you wanted the opposite.

user19161

It is also interesting how e=2.718281828... but the 1828 does not recur.

Kitḫ

You need to soften them before you fill them or you can't wrap them properly.

Cerberus

Hmm OK.

You made my mouth water.

Kitḫ

01:37

Well, I don't often soften mine first unless I really want to stuff them full.

Cerberus

My tongues are hanging out of my mouths (the two that are left).

Kitḫ

Then you can fill them with whatever you like and either bake them or pan fry them.

Cerberus

Ahhh I can't take this any longer!

Kitḫ

I usually pan fry in a little olive oil or actually just toast them in the toaster oven.

Cerberus

BRB while I get some bread and cheese.

Kitḫ

01:38

And just now, I didn't bother to do either.

I just wolfed it down soft.

Cerberus

Yay!

By the way, did you know that cheese starts to boil in ten seconds in the microwave?

At 450 watt, even.

Kitḫ

I didn't know that.

Cerberus

By the way, if you are in for a map game...

You want me to find you a map here, or play Geosense?

Or find me a map, that's fun too.

Kitḫ

Hmm.

What do you feel like?

Cerberus

I like all three equally.

Kitḫ

01:47

Oh goodness.

I was playing Skyrim, but I think it might be too creepy without my husband home.

Let me save in Whiterun, then we can play.

Cerberus

OK.

Is Whiterun a place? Am I suppose to guess the continent?

Kitḫ

Haha, yes. No.

FFS, where is the damn city gate?

OK.

Now, let's see...

7 mins ago, by Cerberus

Hmm. I need a hint.

Cerberus

The left bit if part of a larger landmass, and it is being torn away from it roughly along the left border of the picture.

Border? What does a picture have?

Kitḫ

So the strait between Africa and Madagascar?

Cerberus

Ding!

Kitḫ

01:57

What is it called?

Cerberus

Mozambique Channel.

Kitḫ

Oh. Interesting.

I thought Mozambique was on the other side.

Cerberus

Nope!

No idea how easy this one is.

Kitḫ

Penisula along a fault line...

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…