@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ I like that mindset.

No, because accidents happen, and sorry doesn't cut it

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ that would allow for going to a [the-word]. :/

but all actions in some way or another, whether direct, or indirect, will eventually affect someone else.

@ARadish yes

Pipe Bombs can kill you, or people around you.

@X-27 by affect I mean infringing upon another person's rights

@GiantCowFilms right, i accidentally blow up someone randomly trespassing and wearing a gillie suit so i can't see them.

Or yourself

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ so in some ways, your moral code is looser than mine

@GiantCowFilms If it kills you, that is your problem. If you are stupid enough to experiment with explosives, AND do it near people, you will get arested for other reasons

@GiantCowFilms lol

@GiantCowFilms If you know what you are doing, you can play with dangerous things. That is like saying that going to a shooting range and emptying a few casing of bullets is wrong because an accident might happen.

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ exactly

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ pretty much

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ And his parents and families problem

@ARadish That is what I expect from other people, my conscience restricts me more

And he brings over friend to show off his pipe bomb

@GiantCowFilms i did it on a friends ranch

But my personal convictions are nobody elses problem

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ oooo

as long as you know the danger, and are taking necessary precautions, play with all the boom you want.

@GiantCowFilms it was my friends pipe bomb. lol

@ARadish So now they will have to explain why you got killed on their property.

@GiantCowFilms no.

because i am alive

@ARadish Digging your hole deeper.

@GiantCowFilms the hole was about 4 feet deep, why?

lol

S.W.A.T. team knocks on door

I really can't stand lawyers and government regulations that try to protect people form their own stupidity.

@ARadish People have survived 80 MPH car crashes, therefore they are safe?

@X-27 yeah

@X-27 their own stupidity hurts other people

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ "heeeelo boisss.. wanna some vodka? hic"

heh

@GiantCowFilms they lived

never said it was safe

That is why pipebombs should be illegal

because they kill people

they are

people dying is bad.

this might come off as offensive, and partially cruel, but let the stupid people do dumb stuff. if the stunt is dumb enough, they can do it, but they can only do it once - if you know what I mean.

@X-27 lol

@GiantCowFilms people should be smart enough to realize when someone else is doing something dumb that could endanger themselves.

and get out of the blast zone.

I say protect and nurture the idiots for their own good. They may never realize and never be grateful - but you will have helped them help society and in turn you.

once we set a barn on fire, but thats about the worst thing i've done, and it was 100% accident

@GiantCowFilms That - That is it- That is exactly it!!!!!

That is the biggest problem facing our nation

@GiantCowFilms wish: granted. NEEEXT!!

@X-27 Besides Donald Trump, who is a verbal pipe bomb

is (sorry cow) uninformed people making dumb statment like, "pipe bombs should be illegal"

They are already.

I know

which makes them all the more fun

people like radish, who care none for silly laws like that, still endanger themselves and the people around them.

@ARadish FBI, um yeah, that vegetable is at it again.

@X-27 i had one friend people!!!

@GiantCowFilms No, you have doomed society :P

They all vote

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ You were watching the debate, correct me if I'm wrong. Cruz said something like, "criminals, by definition, do not follow laws"

Exactly

@GiantCowFilms the most simple law of life: all you have to do to make something desirable is to make it hard to obtain.

lol

very true

@GiantCowFilms you should leave, I'm getting stared on politics again

@X-27 That is such a dumb argument

@X-27 hides

@GiantCowFilms lol ,but it is funny

The problem, is all these morons who go around saying, if we can only make killing people ileage, murders will stop doing it

Of course they don't follow laws, but if there is a law, we can force them to follow it (jail door clinks shut)

not making a rule because you cannot guarantee its enforcement is dumb.

@GiantCowFilms force me to follow a law that i don't like.

@GiantCowFilms I can see you would support a police state.

that is, until one or all of the police officers becomes corrupt.

@GiantCowFilms Just realize that police forces are not nearly as effective preventative forces as the citizens living in the community 24/7. The police generally only get there in time to mop up the mess.

@ARadish I will use police, to arrest you and lock you in jail

@GiantCowFilms go.

I need the legal power, that is why we should make the alw

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ so true, on so many levels.

the police come somewhere, after i do something

if they came before, i'd leave

if they come during, i'd leave

@GiantCowFilms then why do you want to take the legal power from the people so they can not defend themselves?? Why? your logic makes 0 sense.

if they come after, it's no problem

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ But we need to make laws to allow them to act, also we need to make sure they have the training and skills

@X-27 it conforms to invisible rule #998

All of that is of no avail if nobody calls them to the scene in time

@X-27 Because they don't know better

@GiantCowFilms If people don't know any better, then how would laws help?

@GiantCowFilms have you ever arm wrestled a police man? they have the training

the problem here is dumb people, of which I have already proposed a wonderful (and inhumane) solution

@X-27 We empower the people who know better to do the knowing for the dumb people.

@GiantCowFilms This is where you and I fundamentally differ, you think the Government knows better for some people than they do themselves. That is 100% in opposition to my values. That will never happen if it is within my power to stop it.

@ARadish Novice was talking about every day citizens

police have the training, that was my point

@GiantCowFilms which does nothing, i still am not jailed or fined for pipe bomb

@GiantCowFilms you want to train everyone?

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ So we should let lunitics out onto the street, where they will be hurt?

people have training availible

@ARadish No, my round about point was the police are best fitted to do the job

i'm "ordinary" and im trained

@ARadish yet if your "friend" who detonated your pipe bomb was as law abiding as you, according to GCF logic, both of you would have mutually agreed to report each other.

@GiantCowFilms How do you know someone is a real lunatic? Now of course if they are endangering othe rpeople, to jail like everyone else that does similar things.

@X-27 so we duke it out, and unfortunately, some one dies.

(not me)

erhrm

@X-27 lol

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ Really, you are telling me you cant decern.

lol. some friend you are.

@X-27 what

@GiantCowFilms No, I am asking how do you ensure that they are really a lunatic?

you have a medical professional examine their mental state

how do we do it now?

seems to work

We shouldn't jail people because of a supposed condition, but because of actions.

@GiantCowFilms Many false positives

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ what percentage

I'd have to do more research.

I have a better idea. We develop an all powerful AI, and they turn us into their human pets. they can protect us from all the dumb people within our society.

(detects tram problem ahead)

?

and then i report her for using illegal weapons, and the police show up, find her dead, and then they arrest eachother as suspects

@X-27 it was my duty to the law

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ I know! we can read thie transcripts for random online chat rooms!

lol

@ARadish good point.

@GiantCowFilms hmmm. does not work

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ Basically, can you violate one persons rights to save five people

James Holmes killed a bunch of people in a theater and then lived, because he was good at acting insane.

it goes like this:

I have a question, should the making of these explosive devices or the detonation thereof be banned?

@GiantCowFilms No

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ it is

Rights are inalienable

@ARadish But which should be?

If a tram is out of control speeding down a track, and it is about to kill five people, and the only way to stop it is to push someone in the way, killing them, would you do it?

No

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ that means we cannot make aliens obey the law

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ But by not hurting that guy, you are killing the five people

inaction is action

I'd sacrifice my own life quite possibly, but I would never kill another person.

@GiantCowFilms So what?

@GiantCowFilms wait, someone falls onto the tracks and stopsa tram???

@ARadish yes

hmm..

might want to brush up on physics

These fake situations are specifically designed to be traps, just ignore it . . .

lol

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ Alright, let say a nuke is about to blow up New York. The only way to stop it is to stuff a person into the mechanism to shut it down, but it will kill him. Do you stuff him in the missile?

can you really save one man to justify blowing up 10 million people?

@GiantCowFilms wt????? lol

My answer always applies to all situations: I would do what I could to save them, but it is not I who decides who dies in the end. Maybe it would come to the point where I need to make a sacrifice, but I would never make that decision for another human being. This utilitarian view of people is sickening.

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ But by saving him, you let the entire city die

to me you made that choice for 10 million people...

Someone else did. Is there honestly no way to put anything else or myself there?

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ So you are anti-war?

Ok, this conversation make little sense anymore. @NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ you still make sense though. he logic being used here is severly confusing to comprehend

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ No way

I have replicated it in the BGE.

how is someone stuffed into a msilie stop it?

@GiantCowFilms Yes, however I do think war can be a necessary evil. If the person is acting actively against those people, I might be able to in good conscience justify it, however I can not lift my hand against a human being made in the image of God. That I believe is the height of blasphemy.

@X-27 My logic makes sense, I feel that you are refueling to process it, because it challenges your world view. It is also possible i may not have expressed it correctly, in which case I can elaborate where needed.

That is what it comes down to.

@GiantCowFilms if it made sense, I could consider accepting it.

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ The soldiers have nothing against you, some may even be forced under threat of death to fight you.

@X-27 Where is the bit that confuses you.

I honestly have not finalized my beliefs on the subject of killing with cause.

@GiantCowFilms I knw

I believe I have already pointed out the flaws as best I could.

@GiantCowFilms You think murder is OK if the end is good?

It depends what you are weighing up.

. . .

In the end, if there is a choice between killing 20 people and one person, I'll go for the one person.

You aren't the one killing them.

@GiantCowFilms "is it not better for one man to die for the nation that for the whole nation to perish?"

I rest my case.

@GiantCowFilms why not use yourself?

other than killing mr innocent?

I would feel obliged to everything I could to save them, but I would never kill another innocent person to save them

@ARadish I brought that up several times . . . he is just trying to formulate a moral trap. I'm leaving for now

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ Therefore you kill them

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ good job son, you made your mama proud

@GiantCowFilms Wrong

If you'd acted, they would live.

Bye

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ bye?

@GiantCowFilms doesn't men you killed them

@GiantCowFilms you angered him

@ARadish So if i could save a guys life, and just didn't act, I'm not liable for his death?

if it meant killing someone else, then no

if you didn't act just because you were lazy, then yes

@ARadish no, there is no major sacrifice or risk.

@GiantCowFilms like, give me situation

like there is someone with gun pulled, and you just walk by, then yes

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ I didn't mean to offend you, There were merely hypothetical brain problems.

if there is an innocent person who you could shove into the path of bullet, then no

that would be stupid

if you kill man with gun. good

but not another innocent person

thats not your choice.

you can kill yourself to save someone, but not kill someone to save more people

but those are my "flawed morals"

so maybe you shouldn't listen to them

To be honest, I don't really know what to make of these situations

@GiantCowFilms give me situation, i don't get offended easy

Okay, here is your situation: you can post a message that you think has a probability of causing a massive fight and ending up with @NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ adjuring for a week, or you can play it safe and just not make the remark.

These are classic philosophy problems that have been argued for centuries.

@GiantCowFilms what are the positives of posting the message?

@MutantBob which makes it more fun to argue them, because there is no right answer

@ARadish The same as every other such message you posted

???

Wow, I come in, and it appears that we're back to people being offended

i don't hink ive offended NiD b4

@MutantBob I know. Some how they were taken very seriously, due to the prevailing controversies.

@TARDISMaker Yes

What is this place coming to?

@TARDISMaker yes

a head

One thing is certain. In all these situations I will ask if anyone wants to play chess.

anyway, gtg

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ the bedrock wall looks nice when tiled with diamond slabs.

@GiantCowFilms I will

Before I sign out on this PC: I have been watching the atmosphere of this chat room become more and more toxic over the past few months. I am unsure of the cause, but I think I need to leave. I am not angry with any of you, I just feel I need to leave. Cyall in a few weeks/months. I am still on Steam for those who still want to contact me.

@GiantCowFilms Okay

Where does the background for this start?

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ The cause is the fact that when people know each other better, their rough edges come out.

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ what if I don't know how the steam messaging system works?

I have observered in all of you, and myself, that we have become slowly more blunt, aggressive and willing to touch on touchy subjects. That is inevitable.

I wonder if anyone is to blame particularly (looks at hooves)

@X-27 I can try to help you figure it out

@TARDISMaker awesome.

Although you need to make sure your profile is setup properly

Is the entire chat going to move to steam messaging?

oh, ok.

Maybe talk to @ThomBlairIII about what he did

@GiantCowFilms nope, your not on steam.

Wait, so the entire chat except for me.... :O

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ cya

Because if I remember right, you didn't show up when I searched you

@GiantCowFilms Steam is private only

So I doubt it will replace this

I hate it when people can PM behind your back on the internet.

??

great you chased him away. <jk>

I get anxiety attacks that people are trash talking and teaming against me.

very unfounded, but it still perturbs me no end.

@GiantCowFilms don;t let it bother you man. seriously, people talking is no reason to get upset.

@GiantCowFilms I can see that

I wish I knew what people said behind my back, but I don't get to

you need a massage therapist

I can just hope that they don't make a joke out of me

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ um.. this will not work. steam doesn't let you do anything unless you spend $5.

bye

@NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ wait, non limited users can send requests. I can accept them, I just can not send them.

@X-27 I'm trying to get Thom to come over here

I'm pretty sure that he had the same issue that you have

And he figured out how to get around it

ahh.

I can't even figure out how to search for a player name.

I don't know for sure, but what happened on my end seems to be consistent

@X-27 Do you have a view friends list button at the bottom right corner of the steam window?

@TARDISMaker yep, it is empty.

@X-27 At the bottom of it do you have a "+ ADD A FRIEND"?

If you do, click on that and you should be able to search names

yah. and I can not use that button because I have not bought their features.

@X-27 Okay, so it gives an error message of some sort?

support.steampowered.com/…

Okay

link goes there.

can you search for my profile name?

tis' kingdudethe7

Not finding it :(

:-(

That's what I meant with how it's similar to thoms

oh well...

Yeah

It seems like a bit of a bad way to go about doing it though...

I feel like there should be a less intrusive way for that to work

I guess you could like buy portal or something though...

(portal is a good game)

buying games works not. read the help page.

@X-27 Wait, what?

plus, I've already activated other steam products with purchased steam keys.

So you have to keep five dollar on the account?

don't know.

@X-27 Pirated? Really?

@TARDISMaker No. legitimately purchased.

I have the receipt.

Okay, good

@gandalf3 Can you proffer some wise advice for this room, things have gone very poorly as of late.

It's the thought that counts

You can say anything, and it will be insulting if you intend it to be

Theoretically it works the other way too

But you can be insulted regardless of the intent of the insulter

Being insulted is a choice

So, your saying, in order to resolve our issues, we need to all cohesively decide both to not intend to offend or be offended.

Well.. use your judgment.

I've been using it. We are now here.

I mean, if one person is extremely offended by a particular message, but no one else finds anything really wrong with it, it's hardly reasonable to expect a chat-wide ban of anything containing similar sequences of letters. Flagging that message will likely result in it's removal, and hopefully that's the end of it.

I see.

We all pretty much know each other as much as can be expected in a random collection of internet-people, and for the most part we get along. I've never really seen any of us go off the handle and really try and hurt someone

We should congratulate ourselves on that

And continue the tradition.

That said, of course think before you type

The current derailment is bad though. NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ has taken a months leave until things turn for the better, and there is an palpable air of discord.

@gandalf3 I wish I could past that onto my eyeballs

Everyone's guilty of saying something thoughtless at some point(s)

But if we just brush it off, then there's no harm done

@GiantCowFilms What exactly is the conflict at this point?

@gandalf3 Its complicated

The conflict morphed into a grim philosophical debate

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what is wrong

Gandalf is smart, everyone should listen to him.

however, it seems that I am part of the problem here. Perhaps I should leave out of protest.

@X-27 That's genious

You fooled me until I actually looked at it

lol

Wow! 2 27 stars!

That's crazy!

noo! you ruined it!

doesn't look as good now

lol, much better :-)

ok. Now I will take my leave.

let me know when @NᴏᴠɪᴄᴇIɴDɪsɢᴜɪsᴇ gets back.

Why is everyone slowly leaving the room?

If everyone leaves, then I'm going to be forced to leave

And then BSE will be boring

I feel like everyone who feels at some part liable is going to abandon ship.

@X-27 Absolutely not

@GiantCowFilms I feel like in the past I've caused some pretty bad arguments and stuff, but I think I can just get past that.

It's been months since I've done something like that

From my current point of view at least

The darkest hour is before the dawn. Things have to go down to go up. I don't think now is the right time to bail, its the time to try harder.

@GiantCowFilms Yeah

I wonder if we just need to get back to the core of what the chatroom is really intended for

Blender

And stop talking politics and stuff

Philosophy is politics for snobs. It is easy to forget that it is still as contentious as politics.

Yeah

Maybe we should just say for the next few weeks, everything but Blender and BSE are off topic

So that we have solid topics we can use to get back on our feet

We must put chess on that list

Sure

I don't think chess has ever lead to anything remotely controversial. At least here.

But we need to make sure that we draw a line

And that it's a clear line

And that we don't argue about what the line is, and focus on doing our part.

Does anyone know how to get the IVY generator addon to spread more near the base and grow leaves near the ground?

I've never used it, sorry :/

@gandalf3, can you fix it with magic?