Fate chat and game room

Bradd Szonye

00:05

I'm thinking this stunt may be a little too narrow: Because I am Scrappy, I get +2 when I Forcefully attack when I am outnumbered in close combat.

trogdor

that is pretty narrow

Bradd Szonye

Seems like it should either apply to another action or apply to other kinds of conflicts. Perhaps ... when enemies gang up on me.

To give it social utility.

trogdor

stunts are supposed to be narrow in some way, but you are narrowing it more than it needs to be I think

Bradd Szonye

Yeah, I just threw it out there.

trogdor

also

keep in mind, that ,at least so far, the PC's conflicts have been with one superior opponent, rather than many inferior ones

and I don't think you need to add in the "when I am outnumbered" thing

Bradd Szonye

00:09

Perhaps ... when I'm in an unfair fight

trogdor

something less narrow than outnumbered possibly

Bradd Szonye

The basic idea was that she's the sort of person who can hold her own against gangs and bullies

trogdor

mm

Bradd Szonye

Like Ender (only less vicious)

trogdor

Ender from Enders Game?

Bradd Szonye

00:11

Yeah.

trogdor

mm

well

maybe BESW can help you

Bradd Szonye

He had a knack for busting his way out of unfair fights.

trogdor

cause it seems to me you may be restricting the stunt just a tad

Bradd Szonye

Pretty sure I am :)

trogdor

but I dunno how it could be fixed

Bradd Szonye

00:21

... when people try to push me around. I like that a little better.

BESW

That's just about any conflict ever.

trogdor

yeah

BESW

I agree as is, the stunt is perhaps a bit limiting.

trogdor

that one is too broad now

BESW

Will think.

Bradd Szonye

00:24

Yeah, I'm looking the character over in general now that I've had a chance to sleep on it and percolate a little.

Changed my dilettante aspect to “Tailor, Tinker, Scrapper, Singer”

BESW

Ooh, nice.

Bradd Szonye

Because my high concept already covered the Self-Made Royalty well enough, the other aspect was missing artistic stuff, and this way it rhymes (sorta)

I didn't realize that Tailor, Tinker was a nursery rhyme.

Tinker, Tailor

"Tinker Tailor" is a counting game, nursery rhyme and fortune telling song traditionally played in England, that can be used to count cherry stones, buttons, daisy petals and other items. It has a Roud Folk Song Index number of 802. Its American version is commonly used by children for "counting out," e.g. for choosing who shall be "It" in a game of tag. Lyrics The most common modern version is: :Tinker, Tailor, :Soldier, Sailor, :Rich Man, Poor Man, :Beggar Man, Thief. The most common American version is: :Rich Man, Poor Man, :Beggar Man, Thief, :Doctor, Lawyer, (or "Merchant") :In...

trogdor

lol

well now you do

Bradd Szonye

Oh! I thought of something cool! Because I am tougher than I look, I get +2 to Forcefully attack when somebody underestimates me.

Which is something I can set up with an advantage if it doesn't happen naturally.

BESW

00:55

Interrrresting.

I like it. We'll have to see if it needs fiddling in play, but it's good to start with.

Bradd Szonye

01:06

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Hello!

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

yo

BESW

Ohai.

We've done a lot of lorebuilding while you were out.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

right

and I think we've got too much stuff starred. Can we make an index google doc?

BESW

What we need to do is keep the PC thread updated.

Bradd Szonye

There's a couple of redundant stars

BESW

01:10

I also need to update and codify our house rules and policies.

Bradd Szonye

Link at “Install this .js...” is broken.

BESW

[blink] Isn't for me.

This link?

Bradd Szonye

No, this one: userscripts.org/scripts/show/168599

may 26 at 12:49 by BESW

BESW

Oh, yeah. That's been superseded by the pinned link:

May 26 at 17:51, by C. Ross

Chat.SE FATE Dice

Which is also the link given in the thread I linked above.

Bradd Szonye

Right. Just noting that the older one was broken in case you wanted to unstar it.

Or whatever. I have no idea how things work here, but I'm learning.

BESW

01:14

We don't know either.

I... am clicking "unpin."

Bradd Szonye

I've gotten to learn the Q&A interface pretty well, but chat is still new to me.

Spend most of my time at english.se.

BESW

Not a lot of chat there?

Bradd Szonye

There might be. I mostly like to answer questions there :D

I ask some occasionally, but most of the stuff I'm curious about is because there are no good answers.

With RPGs, you can always count on somebody to have some answer.

BESW

Heheh.

Bradd Szonye

You and Aramis have been very helpful with my Fate questions.

BESW

01:17

...or, in the case of The Taboo Topics, you can count on everyone to have an answer.

Bradd Szonye

I thought of another one today, but I haven't gotten to the relevant part of the rules yet, so I dunno whether it's already covered.

For that game I'm trying to talk my friends into, I'll probably end up doing something supers- or mage-like

And so I want to know how to handle PCs in different locations (split scenes and/or fast travel to team up)

I got the impression that DFRPG has some stuff about that but maybe not Core

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@BESW what needs to go?

3 star chat se dice?

BESW

@BrianBallsun-Stanton No, the other starred dice script links.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

mine?

BESW

May 27 at 3:18, by Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Fat Fate Dice

May 26 at 12:49, by BESW

Install this .js and "4d6" will read as Fudge dice in this chat!

Those two.

Bradd Szonye

01:21

@Cat Hello!

Cat

Hi @BraddSzonye

:)

Bradd Szonye

“Consequences as Positive Currency” is very cool.

BESW

01:36

...why can I delete this post but not that one? [pokes Discourse]

doppelgreener

@BESW Maybe something to do with the people in the thread, or whether it's been replied to, etc?

BESW

I did ....something kind of workable.

discourse.problematic.io/t/…

How does that look?

doppelgreener

Looks just fine. :)

BESW

I kind of want to delete the whole thread and restart; it's really messy under the hood.

Much better.

Bradd Szonye

Looks good.

Got myself a discourse login: discourse.problematic.io/users/bszonye

BESW

01:53

Duly updated.

Record of PCs | Record of NPCs

There we go.

Problematic

I return.

BESW

@Problematic I have thoroughly fiddled with the pinned post on Discourse.

Problematic

I see it. And... a deleted post that looks the same as the present PC list?

BESW

Yessssss.

It doesn't exist. No.

Problematic

The... shadow PCs?

Bradd Szonye

02:03

THE SHADOW?

Problematic

I'm pushing updated code to the discourse servers, may be wonky for a tick

BESW

I'll take my hands off.

doppelgreener

I need to check if I understand Stress right. I have three stress boxes: one for one stress, one for two stress, and one for three (written as OOO). Taking two stress, I could elect to tick off my two-stress box (now it's OXO). If I then take one point of stress, I can tick off my one-stress box (XXO). If I then take one more point of stress, if I don't want to take a consequence to absorb it, I must then tick off my entire three-stress box absorbing just one stress (XXX). Right?

Bradd Szonye

That's how I read it.

doppelgreener

Am I taken out now, or the next time I take stress (if I am completely determined not to take a consequence for it)?

Bradd Szonye

02:06

p.22: If you can’t (or decide not to) handle the
entire hit, you’re taken out. Your opponent
decides what happens to you.

doppelgreener

Alright. :D

Bradd Szonye

Think that means, if you tick off enough stress/consequences, you handle it.

Ah yes. p.23: f you’re unable to absorb all of a hit’s shifts—by checking a stress box,
taking consequences, or both—you’re taken out.

doppelgreener

Aha got it :D

So it's not like dropping to 0hp, it's just being unable to do anything to take the next attack.

Bradd Szonye

Yep.

Good time to have invocable aspects handy.

Problematic

Just so.

Bradd Szonye

02:10

It's interesting how there are so many ways to deal with attacks.

trogdor

yeah

ticking off all your stress doesn't mean you are taken out

doppelgreener

@BESW Do you white-star something just by starring it normally, or is giving something a white star separate?

trogdor

it just means you are taken out the next time you take any stress

without taking a consequence to mitigate or something

doppelgreener

but optionally I could just choose to be taken out right at the beginning whilst I'm in perfect health, simply by doing nothing to mitigate the attack.

trogdor

uh

I think you are confusing that with conceding?

Problematic

02:14

I... broke it.

trogdor

you can concede at any time

or at least on your turn

Bradd Szonye

If you let yourself get taken out without taking any consequences, then you lose the fight but don't suffer any lasting harm.

trogdor

and you get Fate Points for it

Bradd Szonye

Although the victor gets to narrate terms for it

trogdor

yeah

that's the thing I guess

Bradd Szonye

02:16

Conceding is better than being taken out ... but I think you need to concede before rolling dice.

So it's gambling.

trogdor

it's a choice between deciding how you "lose" the fight, or getting to not be harmed by your loss

no

you can concede as long as you have not been taken out

Bradd Szonye

p.24: If things look grim for you, you can give in (or concede the fight)—but
you have to say that’s what you’re going to do before your opponent rolls
their dice.

trogdor

yeah, thats before they roll it on thier turn

you can still concede if both of you have rolled, lets say, 3 times.

doppelgreener

@trogdor I'd briefly forgotten about conceding, but no, I am genuinely interested just for the sake of understanding how stress works. Choosing to get taken out by an attack, instead of conceding, is a terrible choice, but I'm wondering if it's possible.

trogdor

you just have to make the choice BEFORE they attack you

so you don't gyp a good roll they just made

Bradd Szonye

02:18

I'm just saying, you don't get a choice between conceding and being taken out

trogdor

well

Bradd Szonye

You can't concede after they've already made the shift that would take you out.

trogdor

you do,... as long as you make the choice before you would have been taken out

Bradd Szonye

I don't understand.

trogdor

yeah

you are right

Bradd Szonye

02:19

Oh, OK.

trogdor

we are saying the same thing

Bradd Szonye

Right, that's why I said it's gambling.

trogdor

if you just got hit with enough to take you out, and you can't or won't take a consequence or spent FP you can't concede

doppelgreener

Well, it is only really gambling on "that person might be able to take me out or they might not, and I sure don't want to have to be taken out or suffer a severe consequence to deal with it."

Bradd Szonye

@JonathanHobbs Right.

trogdor

02:21

but if you got hit for enough to take you out, and you take consequences to make it so you aren't, you can concede and rack up FP

Bradd Szonye

Yeah, it's probably a good idea to take your chances until you have at least a minor consequence.

trogdor

it's actually what I did my last session

I took a minor consequence and conceded

I got 2 extra FP for my next session

Bradd Szonye

Of course, if you don't concede when you're out of stress, you take the chance of sucking up a major consequence.

(or being taken out)

trogdor

I still gotta deal with the minor consequence, and I ran from a dragon leaving it to attack a PC and a princess

but I got 2 FP and didn't get eaten

Bradd Szonye

:D “not eaten” is good.

trogdor

02:23

and scored major good character development ideas

conceding is pretty awesome

especially if you don't think you can win

Bradd Szonye

It's an elegant solution to an issue that most RPGs don't handle well.

Champions has solutions too, but I wouldn't call them elegant.

trogdor

I do like FATE's ideas

if you can't win, and you can admit it, you profit for it

if you are too insistent that you can win, and you get taken out, it's less good for you

but it isn't considered punishment so much as a moving along with the story

something bad may very well happen that you didn't want, but if that never happened it wouldn't be fun

doppelgreener

@trogdor Now that you mention it, I noticed that on the small scale, Fate points are a reward for being able to take a loss - but I guess it does that on the large scale too, like you're describing!

trogdor

yeah

you take compels to do something that complicates things for you

doppelgreener

In general, in D&D, not winning is really bad whether on the small or large scale, and not winning a few times in a row can have pretty severe consequences and the players don't like it to happen. But in Fate, it's more OK.

trogdor

02:30

you concede to mitigate loss and gain FP, but you have to actually accept LOSS

D&D has no real way to let you lose and still have fun

not built in anyway

there was one session BESW ran for me and my brother

we were the minions of the Big Bad

the Big Bad was a warlock, my brother was a mishapen, hunchbacked dark cleric

doppelgreener

@Problematic The discourse board is having technical problems. It appears I am unable to load topics.

trogdor

and I was basically Frankenstiens monster

we knew from the start we would lose in the end

Problematic

18 mins ago, by Problematic

I... broke it.

trogdor

but it was still fun

Problematic

@JonathanHobbs Working on it

doppelgreener

02:33

@Problematic Oh, alright :)

Problematic

@JonathanHobbs one of the downsides of using beta products :)

Aaand we're back?

Forgot to run the db migrations >.>

Bradd Szonye

Topics list load, clicking through gives server error.

Problematic

@BraddSzonye I see your exception in the logs, but I can't duplicate

Bradd Szonye

“Sorry, we couldn't load that topic, possibly due to a connection problem. Please try again. If the problem persists, let us know.”

Problematic

Yeah, I was getting that before I ran the migrations. Happens even if you go back to discourse.problematic.io and navigate to it again?

Bradd Szonye

02:44

Yeah, that's clicking through from the homepage.

I can read my welcome message, but no topics.

Problematic

Hrm.

BESW

Skimming the convo, I think you've missed something about concessions.

Problematic

@BraddSzonye ... interesting, I can duplicate that if I'm not logged in.

digs around

BESW

You have to concede something:

> Your opponent gets some major concession from you—talk about what makes sense in your situation—but it beats getting taken out and having no say at all.

Bradd Szonye

@Problematic Logged out and logged back in, same problem.

Problematic

02:46

Wonder if it's a problem with admin status or not

Bradd Szonye

@BESW Yes, I was aware of that – just consider it preferable to being taken out.

BESW

In Kirby's case, it was changing his aspects to reflect his increased awareness and guilt about his irresponsibility.

trogdor

and running away

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Room owners can "pin" comments to the top of the starred-comment column.

@trogdor Running away wasn't a concession; it was Kirby getting to narrate his loss.

It was part of "giving in," but it wasn't the Bad Stuff part.

doppelgreener

@BESW Oh wow. That's some nice character development.

@BESW Aha alright

Bradd Szonye

02:47

@BESW That sounds worse than getting taken out though, which I don't think is the intent.

When you're taken out, the other guy gets to demand the outcome.

trogdor

yeah but it was part of the concession

BESW

@BraddSzonye In Kirby's case, getting taken out would have meant being eaten.

trogdor

the reason I conceded was so I COULD run

BESW

Instead, he chose to lose the conflict on his own terms: but he still had to lose.

trogdor

that doesn't make it not part of the concession

that's what I have been saying

BESW

02:49

@trogdor Technically, you're mixing your terms.

In DFRPG the process is called Conceding.

In FAE, it's called Giving In.

Bradd Szonye

Getting eaten sounds severe for “taken out”

BESW

And the concession is the Bad Stuff part of giving in.

trogdor

I pissed off a dragon

BESW

@BraddSzonye Yes, it is.

trogdor

normally "taken out" does not mean getting eaten

Bradd Szonye

02:50

FAE offers “concede” as well as “giving in”

BESW

I telegraphed both in and out of character exactly what a spectacularly bad idea it is to repeatedly insult a dragon, and then DARE IT TO EAT YOU.

trogdor

just don't do anything stupid like me, and you will not be faced with too many "get eaten" taken outs

come on now

BESW

So when Kirby continued to do so... he entered an unusually high-stakes conflict that he quickly discovered he was unable to win.

trogdor

stop rubbing that in

you said that AFTER I did it

and by the way

I only said "go ahead and eat me" one time

Bradd Szonye

Heh.

trogdor

02:52

it was stupid, but don't make it sound like you warned me about that specific thing before I did it :P

BESW

....I did, though.

Problematic

Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!

BESW

May 9 at 13:53, by BESW

...although if you're rude to a dragon, it'll probably eat you.

May 18 at 9:03, by BESW

Heh. Then she knows that if you're rude to a dragon, dragon etiquette says he can eat you.

May 19 at 12:00, by BESW

"I'm a dragon. I don't have to be polite to people I can eat. I think I might eat you."

May 19 at 12:04, by BESW

"And you're rude to everyone, aren't you? I really SHOULD eat you, just so the forest is a politer place. I'm also hungry."

May 19 at 12:20, by BESW

@trogdor This is your choice. Apologize, back down, give Sang some sign of allegiance, something to keep the dragon from deciding to eat you both because it's easier.

trogdor

lol

but that was AFTER I already said it

BESW

Actually, you said it immediately after the third-to-last quote I just linked.

May 19 at 12:01, by trogdor

"just try it then, when you choke to death I will be the one laughing"

And then I gave you two more chances.

trogdor

02:56

you miss what I am saying

Bradd Szonye

Hm, lasting character change isn't something I would expect from a concession.

trogdor

I dared it to eat me, you didn't say specifically that I should not dare a dragon to eat me

Bradd Szonye

That's more of a consequences thing.

trogdor

at least not before I actualy said it

I am poking fun, not saying you didn't try to help

BESW

@BraddSzonye It's actually quite reasonable, in certain circumstances, but in this case it was particularly good because Kirby was having problems with his aspects.

doppelgreener

02:57

@trogdor From my perspective it seems like BESW tried multiple times to suggest it really would have no qualms with doing so

trogdor

yes

and again, I say

BESW

Now, if you'd introduced yourself, it might've been different. Etiquette is very strict about the circumstances in which one can some a person one's already been introduced to.

trogdor

you are missing my actual point

Bradd Szonye

(I also wouldn't expect sudden character death from getting taken out, without advance warning)

trogdor

there was warning

in plenty

BESW

02:58

@BraddSzonye Agreed. I really like that you can lose catastrophically without dying. Dying's usually boring.

trogdor

that's why I say

Bradd Szonye

“Advance” as in “not during the same scene”

trogdor

he did say things about the dragon before we even started

BESW

@BraddSzonye That one was spread across two or three sessions, with discussion before I ever introduced a dragon about how they will eat you if you're rude.

trogdor

there was warning, some of it in advance, and all of it in plenty

Bradd Szonye

02:59

My expectations from FAE would be that “taken out” is not much worse than being knocked out or captured

BESW

@BraddSzonye Agreed, that's usual.

trogdor

yes

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