2018 Moderator Election Chatroom

Dean Yang

01:34

vote me moderator please

Robert Frost

08:41

@DeanYang ok. you're in.

Asaf Karagila

11:08

Does anybody know when tomorrow night get here?

quid

12:39

@AsafKaragila tomorrow night?

Asaf Karagila

@quid Ugh. Fine.

quid

Other than that the voters count passed 2k recently.

@AsafKaragila the election ends at 20:00 UTC if that was the question.

Asaf Karagila

@quid Oh. I know that. I'm just tired of waiting for the results already...

@quid I count 1998.

6677 - 4679 = ?

user 2646

6677 + (–4679)

quid

Strange.

Maybe the badges are lagging.

Asaf Karagila

12:48

@quid What other "total statistics" are there on the election page?

quid

eligible, visited site, visited election page.

Asaf Karagila

Yes. I meant what are they?

Kenshin

Nick Ivoted for u

user 2646

why?

quid

"25,945 voters were eligible, 8,516 visited the site during the election, 4,417 visited the election page, and 2,001 voted"

Kenshin

12:51

Why did I vote for Nick do you ask?

user 2646

yup

quid

It's 6678 now, the badge count. But there were no votes recently, I think badges are lagging.

Kenshin

Because he has aptly pointed out there are a large number of questions being closed for vague reasons

"insufficient context" appears to be being used as a catch all reason for arbitrarily closing questions

user 2646

@quid 1 out of 13 people vote?

Kenshin

@quid, I just voted like 1 minute ago

Asaf Karagila

12:53

@user2646 No, it's 1 out of 4.

user 2646

eligible?

Asaf Karagila

@Kenshin How do you think having Nick as a moderator would change that?

Kenshin

@AsafKaragila one of his dot points was "Lessen suprise closed/on-hold qns with generic close reasons."

Asaf Karagila

@Kenshin You didn't answer my question.

user 2646

sure he did

Asaf Karagila

12:57

@user2646 No. He only said that Nick believes that this is an issue.

quid

@user2646 "eligible" includes all users with at least 150 points. Many of them are inactive by now.

Kenshin

@AsafKaragila, nick doesn't just believe it is an issue, but he will attempt to "lessen" the issue

quid

The more meaningful number is those that visited the site during the period, as Asaf said.

Asaf Karagila

@Kenshin And how do you think a moderator would do that? That's my question to you.

user 2646

Thanks @quid

Mike Miller

12:57

By what mechanism will he attempt to lessen the issue?

Kenshin

@AsafKaragila, tone is set from the top in these sites

Nick alone may not be able to change things

but if over time more and more moderators are elected like Nick

Then things will begin to change

Asaf Karagila

That's particularly naive.

Kenshin

That's your opinion

user 2646

That's politics

Asaf Karagila

@Kenshin Backed by eight years on the site.

Kenshin

12:59

I have more experience than you then

Asaf Karagila

@Kenshin Really? You were on this site before August 2010? How?

user 2646

chill out guys

Mike Miller

Not really. Moderators have minimal relationship to close votes; because their votes would immediately close a question, most prefer to close less or not at all than they would as a user. Conversely, they are unlikely to vote to reopen by binding votes. The point is that these are community jobs.

Kenshin

Guys, culture sin't like mathematics

it isn't all direct links

My view is that the moderator's behaviour influences the culture of the site

Asaf Karagila

@Kenshin How old are you, if I might ask?

quid

13:01

@AsafKaragila well somebody claimed they use the site since more than a decade...

Kenshin

55 and yo?

Mike Miller

@Kenshin What moderators have affected the culture of the site and how?

This is not my experience.

Kenshin

all moderators affect the culture of a site

I've seen users leave because of the moderateors

user 2646

me too

Asaf Karagila

@Kenshin 33. And I've been on online communities, of all sorts, for the past 20 years. I've seen them rise and fall. I've created them, and destroyed them.

Kenshin

13:03

when you have high rep users leave a site because of the actions of moderators, that shows how moderators influence culture

Mike Miller

Ok. You're just saying vagaries.

Xander Henderson

Gotta love the vague assertions...

Kenshin

@AsafKaragila, I have my own site online community outside of stackexchange which I run

@XanderHenderson, yes culture is a complex phenomenon, not everything in real life is as black and white as mathematics

Asaf Karagila

@XanderHenderson That's a vague assertion. :P

Mike Miller

I tend to think whether or not users leave a site has more to do with their experience with questions on a site. And whether or not those are closed depend on the userbase, which is not led by a moderator charge.

Xander Henderson

13:04

@Kenshin That has nothing to do with what I wrote.

Kenshin

it does, you have have to search for the link

Mike Miller

I am not interested in using a site with a flood of bad questions. Some people prefer this. vOv

Asaf Karagila

@Kenshin Exactly. Not everything is black and white. There is a lot of grey.

user 2646

4 mins ago, by user 2646

chill out guys

Xander Henderson

@AsafKaragila Like I said, we just gotta love 'em!

Mike Miller

13:05

Anyway this strikes me as a waste of time. Nobody here is going to convince the other.

Asaf Karagila

@XanderHenderson Gotta love who? That's vague! :P

Xander Henderson

Exactly!

Kenshin

@MikeMiller of course it's a waste of time

Xander Henderson

@Kenshin I have no idea what you are on about. If you don't want to clarify, fine, but don't blame the reader for your lack of clarity.

Asaf Karagila

@MikeMiller What isn't a waste of time?

Kenshin

13:06

@XanderHenderson yes it's a barbarity that clarity is a rarity

Mike Miller

I did enjoy that rhyming scheme.

Kenshin

@XanderHenderson, my point was that vague assertions are inevitible when talking about super complex ideas in a concise way

Xander Henderson

Which has nothing to do with culture...

Kenshin

To talk about complex ideas precisely requires alot of talking

@XanderHenderson, no culture is a complex idea

Asaf Karagila

@MikeMiller Dr. Seuss meets a Bond villain.

Kenshin

13:07

Culture is an amalgamation of individuals and their interactions, super complex

But we try and examine these interactions in a simplistic and obviously rough and vague way

user 2646

8 mins ago, by user 2646

That's politics

Mike Miller

I think the point is that your estimation of how culture changes is as simplistic and rough and vague as it could be.

Asaf Karagila

@Kenshin: Nobody is happy with the amount of closures, I promise you. Those who close these questions would have rather them being asked in better form from the get go, or not at all.

Mike Miller

The moderator team is the simplest and smallest piece of the puzzle.

Kenshin

@AsafKaragila, I'm not arguing that closure is wrong

Asaf Karagila

13:08

I have yet to see change in this community that comes from a single moderator in a way that can be traced to them.

Kenshin

@AsafKaragila, I'm arguing that arbitrary closure is the problem, where arbitrary is the key word

closure of questions is fine

but there should be some objective process in doing so

because currently I see bad questions remain open, and good questions being closed

Asaf Karagila

Yes, and what are you doing about it?

What is Nick doing about it?

Kenshin

i'm going to vote nick

Mike Miller

Lol

Asaf Karagila

Yes, you voted for Nick. We got it.

Kenshin

13:10

See

Asaf Karagila

I'm just trying to make sense of your claim that Nick "gets it right".

Kenshin

my observations on the site is that I see alot of heard like behaviour

user 2646

in Homotopy Theory, 21 hours ago, by Harry Gindi

Politics is the worst thing ever. It's poison

Asaf Karagila

(Partly because it seems to imply that the rest of us candidates got it wrong.)

Kenshin

I see alot of heard like behaviour, in fact I can show in the data that questions that have been upvoted are more likely to be upvoted

because people follow the heard

but furthermore, not only do I notice that people follow the heard

I also notice that people follow the powerful

I believe users are more likely to close a question where a moderator has posted a negative remark, and keep open a question where a moderator has posted a positive remark

Asaf Karagila

13:12

Yes, herd behavior is a very well documented phenomenon. I still don't see you point.

Kenshin

these are my obsverations accross multiple sites, not just this one

Asaf Karagila

Can you back this up on this site?

Kenshin

I've told you my conjectures, i'll leave the proof as an exercise for the reader

Asaf Karagila

Haha :P

Kenshin

there are sql tools you can use to verify my claims

i'm just giving you guys hints in the right direciton

Asaf Karagila

13:13

I claim that all pigs can fly now... I leave the proof to the reader. It's a trivial exercise, really.

Kenshin

lol

user 2646

Proof by intimidation :P

Kenshin

I was explaining why I believe Nick can make a difference, not why you should believe nick will make a difference

I've seen enough cases to verify my conjectures, which is why I believe what I believe

but I haven't gone to the effort or proving this to others

not a goal of mine

Asaf Karagila

My experience is different. And when a moderator was trying to suggest something should be left open, or be closed, and the community disagreed, the result was that the community got their way.

When said moderator got frustrated with the community, unilateral reversals were issues. This ended up generating a lot of friction in moderation, and eventually the moderator stepped down.

Kenshin

yeah there's a balance

Asaf Karagila

13:15

I am not saying moderators cannot be leaders of the community.

Kenshin

moderators must be fairly representative of the community

Asaf Karagila

I just want to know, how does someone plan on achieving that.

user 2646

Mikey said that too

Kenshin

but moderators also move the community towards their stance I berlieve

Asaf Karagila

I might as well run on the platform of trying to bring back the old theme. And everyone will love me for that. Great. But that's a naive point of view. The question is how does someone plan on approaching these problems.

user 2646

13:17

And not take it personally

Mike Miller

Anyway, this is great motivation to go write.

Asaf Karagila

Especially someone who is comparatively very inactive, and has literally no meta participation.

Xander Henderson

"Herd", not "heard."

Kenshin

@AsafKaragila, I think if he's elected is activity will increase

Asaf Karagila

@Kenshin I sure hope so.

Kenshin

13:18

btw i'm not really 55

tricked yas

Asaf Karagila

I know you're not.

Kenshin

guess my age

Asaf Karagila

17

Kenshin

hmm

user 2646

28

Asaf Karagila

13:19

Nah, probably 24.

Kenshin

24, that sounds like the age of peak iq

i take that as a compliment

good chat

bye all

Asaf Karagila

Well, if that's what you present as peak...

:P

user 2646

cya

Xander Henderson

Wow... your entire user profile consists of you begging for bitcoin...

sheesh

Asaf Karagila

@XanderHenderson Peak IQ.

Xander Henderson

13:20

Neat!

user 2646

What safe guards do you have in place to not take things too personally as a moderator? @AsafKaragila

Xander Henderson

Oh! Oh! I know!

Lots of alcohol!

Asaf Karagila

@XanderHenderson You know what?

Xander Henderson

(That would be my solution, probably.)

@AsafKaragila I was trying to play @user2646 guessing game.

Asaf Karagila

@XanderHenderson I still don't follow. But I have the user on ignore, since their "contributions" were mostly distracting.

Xander Henderson

13:24

Ah. @user2646 asked a question. I answered it.

Asaf Karagila

@XanderHenderson Right.

user 2646

Thank you for ignoring me

Asaf Karagila

@user2646 Oh, you've earned that many years ago already.

@user2646 None, except for my word to try and not take things personally (unless they are aimed at me personally).

user 2646

Good luck.

Mason

Thanks to the candidates for volunteering their time and running for position of nerd elite among the nerds.

Have the candidates shared who they voted for? (Is it appropriate to ask such things?) Does anyone feel comfortable doing so?

Xander Henderson

13:43

All votes are confidential.

It seems kind of inappropriate for anyone to ask anyone else who they voted for.

Asaf Karagila

@SimplyBeautifulArt: Who did you vote for? :P

Simply Beautiful Art

._.

Mason

Yeah. The exception to that case would be elected officials/candidates. As their politics are on display. But of course no one needs to answer anything.

Asaf Karagila

@Mason I don't see how it's helpful.

Simply Beautiful Art

The answer is trivial and left as an exercise for the reader (also I'd guess that the order of the votes are what really matter.)

Mike Miller

13:46

I am interested in who my elected officials voted for in MSE election.

Asaf Karagila

If I voted for someone and then someone else got elected, how is this going to be helpful for anyone?

Mike Miller

In particular, that my elected officials use MSE.

Xander Henderson

@Mason I don't see why a candidate's vote(s) should be any less private than anyone else's.

Mason

@SBA How did we know that a face was going to be an answer to that question.

Xander Henderson

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.

Simply Beautiful Art

13:47

@Mason ._.

Asaf Karagila

@XanderHenderson I voted for Baal and Xasthur.

Mason

@XanderHenderson. It needn't be. They can decline. My point is that it's the case that in elections candidate's votes are often less private.

Asaf Karagila

@Mason Not really. Not when there are several votes available.

Sure, if there is only one vote, then I assume that @SimplyBeautifulArt used it to vote for themselves. But with the 2+1 method here?

Say that @SimplyBeautifulArt voted for me and not for Aloizio. If Aloizio gets elected, what good does that public information is going to make?

Mason

2+1? What do you mean? I heard to 2+1 was prime?

Asaf Karagila

@Mason You vote for two candidates, and an "extra vote" in case your options were disqualified at some point.

Simply Beautiful Art

13:50

Essentially your first choice gets like 2 points, and if they can't win/get disqualified, then your second choice gets like 1 point. (numbers may not be exact, but they are likely accurate to ±1 $\ddot\smile$)

user 2646

lol

Mason

Sure. We have to trust that our moderators won't hold grudges for stuff like that. And we might interpret that SBA values you as a higher candidate than Aloizio which might be insightful if he would expand on that decision.
Eg: I think they're both good candidates and Asaf's longer history with this site won the day.
Insight in to the candidate's thinking would be the goal.

Anyway. It's a dangerous game theoretic game to play because if one person answers and then somebody else doesn't and blah blah blah. I was just hoping to spark conversation which would be insightful into the mind's of the candidates.

Last opportunity! Who are these people?

quid

Regarding the missing badges I have a new theory, maybe it's deleted users.

Mason

@SimplyBeautifulArt. Your username is very long and SBA just rolls off my fingers. Sorry. I am not that sorry. Please don't hold an angry grudge against me for not typing out your username.

Simply Beautiful Art

no problem, people use that for short all the time.

user 2646

14:00

good guess @quid

Simply Beautiful Art

including me

Xander Henderson

If you type @s (or maybe one or two more letters, then you can autocomplete with tab to get @SimplyBeautifulArt

Oh, sorry, @SimplyBeautifulArt, I pinged you again!

Simply Beautiful Art

You only need the first 4 letters I think

so @Simp tags me

nope nvm

(That's just for comments, plz excuse me)

Asaf Karagila

Does @SimCity ping you?

Xander Henderson

@simp

Simply Beautiful Art

14:01

Oh there we go

:/ guess I'm not crazy

:\ or maybe I am

@AsafKaragila ._.

Asaf Karagila

@SimplyBeautifulArt Well, you're running for moderator. Of course you're crazy!

Mason

True facts.

Simply Beautiful Art

probably

user 2646

@AsafKaragila and @SimplyBeautifulArt

Simply Beautiful Art

sure thing

mathrookie

17:39

how to operate?

Simply Beautiful Art

@mathrookie ?

amWhy

18:06

→ 1 message moved to trash

amWhy

21:36

~22:30 hours left before the election wraps up. (I guess I'm trying to give @Shog9 and company 5-6 minutes to get us the results; that will seem like an eternity compared to previous elections, particularly last year's feat by Asaf, but we need allow the community managers a bit of a learning curve to get up to speed.)

Asaf Karagila

21:48

@amWhy Well. I don't know about you. I will know the results pretty much the instant the voting file is public. :P

amWhy

@AsafKaragila Yeah, Yeah... but I consider "final" upon the posting of the results on MSE: :P (And I'll be popping popcorn about 19:50 tomorrow (UTC), and waiting and munching, to watch how adeptly/quickly the CM's are at getting us quick results.

Asaf Karagila

@amWhy Yeah, I know. Everyone wants to have a CM sign on the validity. They use the same voting file, you know... :P

amWhy

I'm looking at how quickly the CM post comes, compared to your post in October 2017! I need something to hold over @Shog9's head for at least another year! ;-)

Asaf Karagila

@amWhy Well. True.

I have tricks up my sleeve to make it quicker and quicker, of course. October was particularly fun, since I got to write a small script to parse the voting file even faster. :P

Anybody gets the idea?

amWhy

22:11

No, it's not any puzzle I want to waste time trying to figure out. I wouldn't worry; and trying to engage the user there to figure out what he means will likely play right into his game.

@AsafKaragila Just curious: Have you seen this newest meta post?

quid

22:51

@AsafKaragila underappreciated genius

Asaf Karagila

23:03

@quid Like Abel?

@amWhy No, I have not trawled meta in the last few hours...

quid

@AsafKaragila wouldn't be my first association, but why not.

Asaf Karagila

@quid Because it wasn't your association? :P

Transcript for

$Mathematics$ 2018 Moderator Election Chatroom