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2 hours later…
02:28
@MikeMiller Is the sigh about not being able to obtain it, or that it's allegedly wrong?
If the former, I can send it to you if you want
 
2 hours later…
04:05
No I read the paper
I wish he would stop
 
1 hour later…
05:34
is Atiyah a crank now?
It sounded like that was the implication
Much sad if true
 
1 hour later…
06:57
@MikeMiller Thanks, I'll immediately download and save it.
Stupid chrome is blocking my downloads
Block chrome. Assert supremacy
LOL
Fixed
Suck it Chrome
I'll copyleft whenever I want
07:22
@BalarkaSen I thought this was about Michael A's paper
And I was like uhhh
hah no
I feel sorry for M.A.
He's still one of the greatest mathematicians of our time
Heh.
07:46
How is $S_\bullet(X)$ read?
just as the name of the object
what are you thinking this should be?
es bullet of ex
singular chain complex of X
I was thinking about S dot of X or something similar but wanted to be sure, thanks
I really like bullets
(r/nocontext)
I needed to know if it was the singular chain complex
Could have been a complex of sheaves or some garbage
07:51
mike ur brain is 2 full of 2-gerbes
@MikeMiller Oh, yes, no excessively fancy stuff
I think writing it as $S_\bullet$ instead of $C_*$ is excessively fancy boio
Alessandro is reading tommo tam dieck i suspect
whence the notation
sounds excessively fancy
tommo tim dieck is very fancy
07:55
are you intentionally getting the name wrong
you did it differently each time
@BalarkaSen I am and I'm finding it more readable than Hatcher :P
what? his name is dam tammo tieck
100% correct spelling
(I'll read Hatcher after I'm already somewhat familiar with those topics I think)
ah I see
in any case Tammo is first name, tom Dieck is last name
He really likes throwing in categorical abstract nonsense whenever he can but it's not too bad
07:57
Good luck with dom tieck
Pfff just because you sold your soul to Hatcher it doesn't mean Van Damme isn't good
(that's the first 2 words last name I could come up with)
I liked it
In any case here's the latest in the homotopy room
Beautiful
Hi everyone
08:10
lol
Hi @Mathei
@BalarkaSen here's the stuff I mentioned about Riemann surfaces and their function fields: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/36/conversation/…
the starting point is a function field analog of Ostrowski
I had no idea. It's like 57: mathematicians are working very hard on determining whether or not it is composite, and they've already gotten partway there by finding out that it's prime.
@MatheinBoulomenos Thanks, I'll have a look at it in a bit
Are you constructing the Zariski-Riemann space?
Took me much longer than it should have to noticed that number is even
I don't know that name
but it's possible
08:15
No, he's constructing the Riemann surface itself with its analytic topology
I think B-boi just is asking if you're using Zarisiki (cofinite) topology
no Zariski topology is used
No, the Zariski-Riemann space of an extension $K/L$ is a scheme whose points are in 1-1 correspondence with valuation rings squashed between the extension.
Jesus what happened to you
I learnt this construction in Hartshorne Chapter 1
In dimension 1 it recovers algebraic curves
Ugh I can't even shit on that, it's classical
08:18
it's basically that construction, yeah
Coolio
I loved that construction when I read it
I'll read your exposition again to freshen my memories
I came up with that, inspired by an ANT exercise
but I knew of course it's not new
@MatheinBoulomenos That was really impressive, though
It's always cool to see people rediscover stuff
08:20
The cool thing is that if you have a singular algebraic curve the Zariski-Riemann space is the easiest model for it's resolution of singularities
@BalarkaSen that's pretty cool! I should read Hartshorne Chapter 1
So it begins
The descent into madness
that began long ago and there's no way to stop it now
Mathein knows most of Hartshorne, @Daminark, he's already a lunatic
These are the more classical stuff for non-lunatics :P
I don't know much in Hartshorne
08:22
That's the madness I speak of
Doing geometry
my intuition for AG comes from transferring stuff in commutative algebra and algebraic number theory. Which is nice, but not enough
You know a very impressive quantity of AG despite this
Hopefully we'll praise you so much you'll feel terribly embarassed
I approach AG in a completely different way so it's very useful to see a different perspective
for me
only supermen can do geometry without pictures
08:24
agree 100%
you mean like pictures of $\mathrm{Spec}(\Bbb Z[x])$?
A sat down with a friend and we tried to draw more points in that than Mumford did, that was fun
Curves are nice because one has uniformizers
In higher dimensions one has to prepare using a recipe of Weierstrass ;)
for example, the one-dimensional ramified covers of $\mathrm{Spec}(\Bbb Z)$ that are included in that can be smooth or non-smooth, Mumford only drew two smooth ones ($V(x)$ and $V(x^2+1)$) Stuff like $V(x^2+4)$ will have a singularity which is related to failure of unique factorization for ideals and failure of integral closedness and you can also use the tangent space of course
for a given, say monic irreducible polynomial, you can read off the ramification points from the discriminant and the singularities from the conductor
That's coll
08:50
\o @Albas
Hey@BalarkaSen
Whats up
Math mostly :)
Traveling for me
Where to?
Bengal
08:51
Ahh, homecoming? :P
lol no, visit to grandparents
Gotcha.
What math you're up to?
This and that. Nothing specific to a degree.
I have to keep writing about stratified spaces
I see... I plan to do some physics, need to keep it up as well
08:55
What kind of physics?
Right now I plan to do some symplectic geometry related to canonical transforms
Man that's good stuff. Where are you learning from?
Goldstein and theres this book by Mukunda and ECG Sudarshan
I see. Arnold also has a classic text about it
Yea arnold does, but my symplectic geometry is pretty weak for it
I do plan to do it as well once I get some intuition on physics
Hopefully I can start of with some serious mathematical physics by the end of this year
09:00
That'd be very cool
I'm going to read a little symplectic geometry sometime soon, you can jump in with me if you want
You're reading that book by Katz right ?@BalarkaSen How is it?
@BalarkaSen That would be awesome
I haven't made any serious effort to read it yet lmao (sorry @Alex). I'm just chilling in my home.
I need a better work schedule
Otherwise I just procrastinate my time off
Ahh I see. Well chilling is important too
A whole bunch of stuff will be on your way in July, I guess @BalarkaSen
With the shit related to admissions
...they already are...
I'm trying to stay away from that stupid crap
Have you heard back from the uni after the interview by the way?
09:05
Yea that shit really sucks man
@Alessandro Yes. I am the 39th person out of the 72 they selected.
@BalarkaSen So you got in?
Thats cool
Not yet, that's just a rank order. They're going to release the seat allocation lists + waiting lists to run a further selection out of the 72
They have something like 50 seats
@BalarkaSen Urgh that's beginning to sound like the whole admission process is designed to be as annoying as possible
Yes, right?
Hey @Alessandro you're tryna do Hatcher too yeah?
I find tom Dieck more readable for a first exposition so I'm working on that now, I think I'll read Hatcher after I'm already familiar with the topics covered
Would you want to create a study group? I've been looking to learn AT myself.
@BalarkaSen What a pain
It's ok fuck it
09:29
Are you applying for ISI B or ISI C
Ahh I see
@Fargle would said group be abelian?
I was thinking about the name "Algebraic topology study chain complex"
@BalarkaSen Do tell me when you start off with symplectic geometry
09:32
I'd be up for it, but I kinda skipped the homotopy part and started with homology at chapter 9 of tom Dieck (I'm also reading the homotopy part from chapter 2 onward parallel to it though), I don't know what's your background and what kind of AT you're thinking about
“$H^2(\text{Electric Boogaloo})$”
5
>be balarka
>haven't read text by katz
>already know all the content from the perspective of garbological cohomology
>tfw
@Fargle what do you think?
I like it
@Albas I'll let you know for sure!
@Alex I def don't know a lot of the content there
09:41
@AlessandroCodenotti I'm not sure what kind I'm thinking about either. I'd say my background is a little weak but I've had point-set and algebra courses.
recommend me a jammy ass metal album @Alex
Jammy ass? As in they are just fucking around with riff after riff?
Animals as leaders style?
Was about to say AAL lol
Yes lol
AAL is too normie for me tho
david maxim micic?
09:46
that looks underground and something the /mu/ gods would appreciate
I shall try it
I shall also try it
But none really come to mind other than ultra normie things
I mean TesseracT got that dank groove but that might be a bit normie
Intervals and Plini are the standard suggestions if you like AAL. Heard all three of them live, they're great
oh yeah Intervals and Plini slap pretty hard
"If you like David Maxim Micic, you may also like: (A bunch of Plini albums)" - Bandcamp
plot twist Alessandro is Bandcamp
09:50
Plini is how I found DMM
@BalarkaSen Damn, I was sure you'd never find out!
and I think DMM actually toured with AAL, or at least has played shows with them
holy fuck what a huge conspiracy
conspiracy triangle my dude
I don't know DMM though, what should I listen to?
Ego, Eco, or Who Bit the Moon are all fantastic
09:52
@Fargle My objective is to self study as many topics as I can over the summer from this list to prepare for a couple of grad courses I'd like to take in the winter semester but I don't have the prerequisites for atm
I'm listening to who bit the moon rn
It's pretty weirdball
I like it
@Fargle I don't have my headphones with me right now but I bookmarked your message for later, thanks
@AlessandroCodenotti No problem, I love sharing music
Earthside is also good, but very far in the direction of prog excess
But then again, so is Animals as Leaders
@Fargle You say that like it's a bad thing
It is for some people
Personally I eat that shit up but hey
09:56
DMM should slow down these tracks and add some reverb to it and make a vaporwave remix of this album
lol
Damar is the standout track on the album for me
Next track for me
687 days now
Quite like it
I'm not sure whether math is still allowed in this chatroom but I'm stuck in the proof that for path connected $X$ we have $H_1(X)=\pi_1(X)^{\mathrm{ab}}$
Good fact
Someone add Eric S
09:59
I did!
Someone notify Eric S now that he has been added
So singular $1$-simplices in $X$ are almost paths in $X$, they just have domain $\Delta^1\subseteq \Bbb R^2$ rather than $[0,1]\subseteq \Bbb R$ but that can be fixed by associating to the simplex $\sigma:\Delta^1\to X$ the path $[0,1]\to X$, $t\mapsto\sigma(1-t,t)$
Those are the same thing
I mean $\Delta^1$ (a 1-simplex) is just $[0, 1]$
But yeah
If you want to be rigorous
@BalarkaSen Yeah but for Dieck $\Delta^n$ lives in $\Bbb R^{n+1}$ and he wants to be precise here
Well anyway that's not the issue, just the premise
10:03
tommy gun dammeck is unnecessarily rigorous
I don't understand how you could think they are different because of the space it lives in
There's even an affine isomorphism between the domains as you say
But I am a grumpy boi so
@Alessandro get harumphed on
lmao Alessandro will get dogpiled for reading dam dieck now
savaged
We have $k:\Delta^1\times I\to X$ an homotopy of paths. We factor $k$ through the quotient map $q:\Delta^1\times I\to\Delta^2$, $(t_0,t_1,t)\mapsto (t_0,t_1(1-t),t_1t)$ to get a map $\sigma:\Delta^2\to X$
10:06
is intentionally misspelling Teemo van Dyke just a running joke now
Was it a joke before I picked on you the first time
Apparently Tammo Tom Bombadil is too hard to write correctly
Hahahah
I'm dying
10:07
That one might take the cake
Dieck then says that $\partial\sigma=c-k_1+k_0$ with $c$ a constant
So ignoring the constant and the unnecessarily formal stuff the point here is that the difference of homotopic paths is a boundary?
Quite correct.
(which looks very reasonable by drawing a circle in a plane)
$k_1 - k_0$ bounds the 2-simplex inside it
@BalarkaSen Emmy gave a very good motivation for symplectic manifolds today
10:11
That is given by the homotopy
@MikeMiller Oh?
Classical mechanics, in a sense, studies flows which preserve an energy function, yes? This is the absolute simplest of physical laws.
We would then like on a manifold $M$ to come up with a recipe that takes as input a function $H$ and spits out a flow which preserves $H$.
How should we do this? We know that the easiest way to come up with a vector field $X_H$ is to take the 1-form $dH$ and contract with some 2-tensor (who knows what the 2-tensor is at this point).
Le Hamiltonian vector field
I see the point.
This gives us a recipe to get a map from functions to vector fields, as long as the 2-tensor is a nondegenerate bilinear form at every point, so that $T(X_H, -) = dH$ uniquely defines $X_H$.
No, there is more.
So we see that our 2-tensor should be nondegenerate.
10:14
Mhm.
Next, the fact that $X_H(H) = 0$ translates into $dH(X_H) = 0$, or $T(X_H, X_H) = 0$. So $T$ should be skew-symmetric. Thus our theory is defined by a nondegenerate 2-form $\omega$.
@BalarkaSen Right, so if I don't bother with having exactly the standard $n$-simplex in $\Bbb R^{n+1}$ as Dieck does I can take the homotopy of paths to be $k:[0,1]\times [0,1]\to X$ such that $k(x,0)$ and $k(x,1)$ are the two paths I'm dealing with and quotient the side $k(1,t)$ to get a 2-simplex, compute its boundary and conclude that $k_1-k_0$ is a boundary?
@MikeMiller I agree.
I like that point of view. I think @Albas might appreciate it more.
@AlessandroCodenotti Yup, for sure
Now the flow should also preserve whatever structure we used to define $X_H$; this seems wholly reasonable, lest the recipe change after we apply the flow. Thus $\mathcal L_{X_H} \omega = 0$. But expand with Cartan's magic formula: this is $d \iota_{X_H} \omega + \iota_{X_H} d\omega$. The first term is, by definition of $X_H$, $ddH$, so is zero.
Thus we should demand that $\iota_{X_H} d \omega = 0$. For this to be true for all $X_H$, $d\omega$ had better to be zero.
Thus our theory is defined by a closed nondegenerate 2-form.
Wait wait wait let me follow that last bit
10:18
This last point I really liked, since the closedness was not a necessary feature of the geometric structure to me - it gives us Darboux charts, but why is it necessary for the dynamics?
I can also quotient both the $k(0,t)$ side and the $k(1,t)$ side to get rid of the constant term in the boundary actually, the quotient is a disk so still homeomorphic to the standard 2-simplex and it's all fine
Oh, you're replacing the integrability condition by the physically apparent $\mathcal{L}_{\text{dual}_\omega(dH)} \omega = 0$.
Yup. This condition is motivated not from mathematical nonsense, but from clear dynamical requirements.
Is Tom tammo Jerryck the new meme?
@AlessandroCodenotti If you want to get it right, for what it's worth, his last name is tom Dieck, not Dieck
10:19
I love Tom tammo Jerryck
@MikeMiller Oh lol I actually didn't realize that
People usually don't, so it is a valuable point to make
let's just call him Thomas The Tank
r/surrealmeme
I'm not sure, Thomas is all about friendship yeah?
But if you take this categorical approach you will lose all of your friends
That's why just tank and not the engine
alternatively Tomas the Dank
Tomas tam Dank
10:27
You guys know that one part of Thomas's song where it kinda picks up, right? buildup and pause BA DUM PA PAA, PA PA PAAAAAA
5
(I should become a music theory expert tbh)
How much of this relationship between $H_1$ and $\pi_1$ works for $H_n$ and $\pi_n$? It seems to me that the same trick can be used to show that if $f,g:[0,1]^n\to X$ are in the same class in $\pi_n(X,x_0)$ then they should be in the same class in $H_n(X)$ as well, since $[0,1]\cong\Delta^n$
Yes, so you see that there is a homomorphism pi -> H
But asking what that homomorphism is might perhaps be too much to ask
So in general $H_n(X)$ can be smaller than $\pi_n(X,x_0)^{\mathrm{ab}}$?
You have made some grave assumptions already in that sentence :)
What do you mean?
10:36
What is the 'relationship' you were citing above? The Hurewicz isomorphismm
?
If I knew how to edit for shit I'd draw a peaceful simplex with the buildup, and then when it changes to the heavier music, then boom it becomes Concise
The fact that, for path connected $X$, $H_1\cong\pi_1$. I don't know about Hurewicz yet
You have missed a modification to the right, but that isomorphism is called the Hurewicz isomorphism
1) $\pi_n$ is abelian for $n > 1$ (Look at the start of HatCh4 for the picture ;) )
2) Who said anything about smaller? Why is the map $\pi_n \to H_n$ surjective?
Hm, good points, I was running too much ahead there
@MikeMiller I don't know lie derivatives but this seems interesting
10:43
There are some restrictive conditions that tell you something about that map (this more general statement is often called the Hurewicz isomorphism theorem, and that map the Hurewicz map: the n = 1 case is subsumed)
But in general... youtu.be/ymPpIzaanhY
@Albas Ah, you will soon. Here is some brief intuition but I won't say much
@MikeMiller lol
There are 11 chapters between where I am and the general Hurewicz isomorphism theorem in tom Dieck's book so I guess I'll wait
<3
@Albas Do you know of the Lie bracket of vector fields?
The operation that takes two vector fields $X, Y$ and spits out a new one called $[X, Y]$
No I dont @MikeMiller
Ah, I see. Allow me to rethink my exposition briefly
Given any "tensor" $T$ on a manifold (a tensor is in a sense an object that takes as input $r$ vector fields and spits out $s$ vector fields, in a smoothly varying way, and linear at each point - a vector field is a basic kind of tensor that takes 0 pieces of input data and spits out 1 vector field, while a form is a kind of tensor that takes in $k$ vector fields and spits out $0$ vector fields - just a function)
And a vector field $X$, you can define the "derivative of $T$ in the direction of $X$", called the Lie derivative, $\mathcal L_X T$. The idea is this. A vector field has "integral curves" $\gamma$, with the rule that $\gamma'(t) = X_{\gamma(t)}$ (the tangent to the curve is just the vector field, at that point)
Now on an integral curve $\gamma$ for the vector field $X$, we can restrict $T$ to $\gamma$. Because $\gamma$ is identified with $\Bbb R$, we can take the usual kind of derivative from calculus - the time derivative. If $\gamma(0) = p$, we define $$(\mathcal L_X T)_p = \frac{d}{dt} T_{\gamma(t)} \big|_{t = 0}.$$
I apologize for the mess of notation, but the idea is supposed to be that given a vector field $X$, we have a direction in which we can take the derivative given at each point by the vector field itself, and we take the derivative of the tensor in that direction
I suspect I am dropping on you a mess of concepts you haven't seen before which probably make this more scary
If that is the case, then ignore me for a bit, and let's table this for some period of time :) These will all seem quite natural eventually
Kinda. Thanks anyway @MikeMiller
10:53
My apologies
Have you dealt with vector fields before @Albas?
@Alex In physics yea a lot, I only read the definition a few days back of mapping the manifold onto its tangent bundle
Such that the composition with the projection map is identity
I think I have just tried to tell a story slightly too early
Sorry for the trouble@MikeMiller
@Alessandro Given $\alpha \in \pi_n(X)$, there is a representative $f : S^n \to X$ such that $[f] = \alpha$. Triangulate $S^n$ so that it's a simplicial complex. Then $f$ naturally gives rise to a singular cycle in $X$ by considering the formal sum of the restrictions of $f$ to each of those simplices, upto sign according to identification. Let $\xi$ be that $n$-cycle. $\pi_n(X) \to H_n(X)$ is given by $\alpha \mapsto [\xi]$.
This is well defined because of what you said, difference of two of those $\xi$'s arising from two different representative $f$'s is a boundary given by the homotopy.
10:56
No no, none at all, I am always glad to talk - perhaps a little too much :)
One day soon we will have a similar conversation
Yeah hope so
That turns out to indeed be a homomorphism. Like Mike said, that's called the Hurewicz homomorphism.
It's an isomorphism for $n > 1$ if all the homotopy groups of $X$ vanish below $n$. That's a theorem.
@BalarkaSen Not up to sign, since $S^n$ has a canonical orientation which nobody disagrees on ;)
I wasn't speaking of orientation. You have to introduce sign when you write the simplices as a formal sum.
Just that
(Like Delta_1 - Delta_2 if you use the simplex delta complex structure)
Yeah, but the sign is decided by making sure the simplex orientation agrees with that of the manifold
10:59
Ah, right.
Fair point.
This is all pedantry though
It's very fair, because in reality you're pushing the orientation class to $H_n(X)$ by $H_n(f)$
I was just breaking it down to simplicial level
@BalarkaSen Neat
For $n = 1$, this is a homomorphism $\pi_1(X) \to H_1(X)$ of a generally nonabelian group to an abelian group. So the commutator subgroup dies in the kernel of this map. By universal theorem of quotients it descends to a homomorphism $\pi_1(X)/[\pi_1(X), \pi_1(X)] \to H_1(X)$
This turns out to be an isomorphism
@BalarkaSen If $X$ is path connected, right? That's the next proof I have to read in tom Dieck's book, but I'll do that after lunch
11:03
Yeah I was implicitly assuming that. Thank you.
The reason is living in the paragraph of Hatcher I wanted you to read. Classes in $H_n(X)$ can be represented as maps from $n$-manifolds with at least(most??? codimension is weird, linguistically) codim 2 singularities.
For $H_1(X)$ there is no issue as codimension 2 doesn't exist in dimension 1
So every element of $H_1(X)$ can be represented as a map from a 1-dimensional closed manifolds (simply circles) to $X$.
So every element of $H_1(X)$ is indeed in the image of the homomorphism, as they can be represented as a loop.
"With singularities of codimension at least 2". Putting least at the end makes it clearest
Yeah good point.
@BalarkaSen Makes a lot of sense!
Now if you remember Hatcher, you'd know that there are no issues in codimension 2 as well. Every homology class is represented as a map from a pseudomanifold with singularity living in codimension at least (nudge @Mike) 3. So why can't this same argument push for $\pi_2(X) \to H_2(X)$?
Something to think about!
@BalarkaSen Secretly you are using "resolution of codim 2 singularities" already for Hurewicz
11:09
Yup
I'll let Alessandro thonk about it; I stumbled on this point when I thonked about it for the first time
@BalarkaSen hmmm well for $n=1$ we need path connectdness to make it work, so I guess we need some stronger condition for $n=2$ to have any hope of it working, but it sure looks like it should work!
I'll think about it
Ok :) Path-connectedness is not a terribly hard issue; you'll know that when you see the proof.
For $n = 1$ I mean
Path connectedness is sort of the point but mostly not. It is there because homotopy groups depend on component
@MikeMiller Here's a question pulled out of my ass. Say I pick a homology class $\alpha \in H_n(X)$ arbitrarily, where $X$ is some nice space (manifold if you want). Suppose I pick a representative $f : Z \to X$ from a pseudomanifold with codim 3 singularities for $\alpha$. The singularity set in $Z$ is going to be a subcomplex itself. So restrict $f$ to that to get a cycle in $H_{n-3}(X)$. What is this boio? Is this independent of the choice of $f$?
Can I keep iterating this stratum-by-stratum?
The subcomplex is not a manifold with singularities
11:19
I suspected so. But it's still a closed (=no open faces) delta complex, so that I get an element of $H_{n-3}(X)$ right?
I am skeptical. Why can't it be a tripod
Or three arcs with endpoints attached
I guess I'd have to think carefully how the singular set looks like.
I anticipate being able to cook up arbitrarily evil examples
I should really look for what happens when $\alpha$ is representable as a map from a stratified space. I can restrict it to each stratum-closure to get a long chain of elements in $\bigoplus H_k(X)$.
Has Kreck thought about this phenomenon? Do you get some filtration on $H_\bullet(X)$ or something?
A map from a stratified space with even cells
I suspect the different representatives of elements in lower homology you get by picking different representing chains are totally unrelated
11:24
That'd be sad.
Yeah meh I see
There are easy examples
I am going to have to read Kreck's DAT for my own good
I think the point is the only invariant data lives in the fundamental class
I guess your hope was you could see cohomology operations
Yeah :P
Doubt that's in Kreck
But probably possible
To do
Ah no.
Surely you need extra geometric data like a normal bundle
At the most unsubtle level you need this to define cup square.
11:40
So $H_{2n}(X) \to H_n(X)$
Meh bad
$H^k(M^n) \to H^{2k}(M^n)$ is cup square. So $H_k(M^n) \to H_{2k - n}(M^n)$?
Yes that is correct
I'm not sure what normal bundle means here but you need something like it
Infinitesimal neighborhood data
I'll think about it carefully later.
Mather has a thing called control data on a stratified space
I have been trying to understand them for a while
It's a coherent choice of normal neighborhoods of each of the stratums
Aha. That sounds like it must be the right thing
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