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14:39
Hi @BalarkaSen
14:50
Hi @Mathein!
I read what you wrote above, very interesting stuff
It turns out that if you define a model category structure on the category of chain complexes, then there are some nice analogs between homotopy theory and homological algebra
for example, in the usual model category structure for the category of chain complexes, fibrations are just (degree-wise) surjective maps
and the fiber of an epimorphism is just the kernel
so a fiber sequence is just a short exact sequence of chain complexes. And the long exact sequence on the homology groups you get from the snake lemma corresponds to the LES for a fibration
Aha
I suspect I don't know too much about model categories to appreciate the formal similarities though
On an off-note: de Rham cohomology turns out to be very very powerful. "Intersection is dual to cup product" has a 2 line proof using the Thom isomorphism, which is very obvious and natural in the de Rham world
you can figure out what an "interval" should be for chain complexes, with that you can define mapping cones and path spaces for chain complexes, so you get homotopy fiber and homotopy cofibers which are actually useful for proofs in homological algebra
yeah I remember the interval object
I don't think you could come up with the mapping cone for chain complexes without the motivation from topology
there are a lot more of that analogies. Tensor prodcuts are like smash products, both are left adjoints to Homs, and when you figure out what a circle is (well you can get that if you know what an interval is, it's the coequalizer of the inclusion of the two endpoints to th interval), then you get that suspensions are just degree-shifts
Also derived functors have a rather simple description in the model category setting: So suppose you have a model category $C$, then you can define the associated homotopy category $\operatorname{Ho}(C)$ together with a canonical functor $C \to \operatorname{Ho}(C)$, then for a functor $F: C \to D$ to any category $D$, a derivied functor is just a functor $\operatorname{Ho}(C) \to D$, such that the obvious triangle with $C$, $D$ and $\operatorname{Ho}(C)$ to commutes
which is "universal" with this property (formally, a Kan extension)
when you have a functor defined on abelian groups or $R$-modules, you first extend it to the chain complexes by applying it degree-wise
15:29
Hm I only learnt derived functors in the derived category setting - but I'm guessing they are some specific case of model categories anyway
the derived category is the homotopy category actually (weak equivalences are quasi-isomorphisms)
oh - yeah i guess (i didn't look up the definitions.. )
semi-related - i think (but im not sure) these stuff is used in defining a more general notion of cotangent bundle in algebraic geometry (called the cotangent complex)
Hi @MikeMiller
15:44
@Mathei I personally don't find there to be a lot of power in the model categorical perspective in classic/elementary homological algebra
I rather find that homological algebra helps me understand the model categorical perspective
(I do however frequently use the octahedral axiom in practice)
I'd say passing to the homotopy category provides intuition for considering derived categories, but I guess you could also say that derived categories provide intuition for the homotopy category/ localizations of categories in general
I think the homotopy category is the most basic object here and the idea "derived category" and "model category" are two improvements one comes to, sometimes in different ways
yes that's a good way of saying it
15:49
I like triangulated categories more than model categories (less stuff to think about / keep track of) but they are apparently insufficient for some purposes
Limits and colimits of triangulated categories I hear are not well-behaved, and one still doesn't know how to make sense of homotopy (co)limits inside the derived category itself, right?
Hi @BalarkaSen
Sorry that this is who I have become
Hey!
lmao
I hope the fact that I am a geometric-topological idealogue makes me ramblings about infinity-categories more respectable instead of less
It's definitely one of the two
@MikeMiller yeah, homotopy colimits in the derived can behave weirdly if they exist (and they might not)
@MatheinBoulomenos I don't really know how they're defined in the derived setting. I know it's almost tautological in the model categorical setting
It does tell me that there is content to infinity categories and whatnot. I just don't have the background to appreciate (I admittedly am finding this line of discussion dry, hence why I am not engaging)
15:58
I usually like these perspectives as things to have in the back of my head, and try to do all my actual math very concretely
I am going to learn ze Check-da-Ram cohomology now
@BalarkaSen oh and about that ramification stuff, you can just define ramification for locally ringed spaces and this gives you both the notion of ramification for Riemann surfaces and schemes (and via the letter, ramification in algebraic number theory) as special cases
Balarka is flipping you off in front of his computer screen
16:00
lol
idk, you did seem interested in the previous ramification discussion
I just thought the abstraction to locally ringed spaces was kind of funny
it seems natural when you have it for schemes
Seems more your style than Mr Concrete Geometry
But I didn't mean to hurt feelings, I was just trying to be silly
the definition for schemes doesn't use that they look locally like affine schemes at all
@MatheinBoulomenos I was, but I think from the opposite perspective than yours
I liked the ramification stuff for locally ringed spaces because they were natural abstractization of the geometric meaning of ramification. You probably like it because of it's algebraic minimalism and general abstract language of which geometric ramification is but a special case
(i.e., my perspective is fundamentally ingrained in geometry. I find abstractions hard to care for simply because they are abstractions, useful or not)
16:14
I liked it mostly not because of the generality because I already spend a lot of time studying ramification in algebraic number theory so it was nice to see that this relates to some other stuf like Riemann surfaces
Gotcha.
is room title permanent?
I was talking to a clever PhD student today who's writing his thesis on graphons (symmetric measurable functions from $[0, 1]^2$ to $[0, 1]$. These are "measurable generalizations" of graphs, because such a function is really like the adjacency matrix of a weighted graph. His presentation was very beautiful)
Here's a possibly naive question - is there an analogue of Riemann hurwitz?
(Beware: abstract algebra: if you have a local homorphism between local commutative rings $f:R \to S$, then you say that $f$ is unramified if the induced map $R/\mathfrak{m} \to S/\mathfrak{m}S$ is a finite separable field extension.
So when you have a morphism of locally ringed spaces $(X, \mathcal{O}_X) \to (Y, \mathcal{O}_Y)$ is ramified at $x \in X$, if the induced map on stalks $\mathcal{O}_{Y,f(x)} \to \mathcal{O}_{X,x}$ is unramified.)

The point is, if you have a holomorphic map between Riemann surfaces, then this induces a map of locally ringed spaces where you take the sheaf of ho
16:20
And he asked me the question: What is singular/simplicial cohomology really? I feel like I don't know the answer to that question beyond "cochains are like PL functions on the simplicial complex".
I can relate it to cohomotopy or classification of vector bundles, but I do not know what is an answer to that question except "it's a formal thing which happens to have a nice product structure by a stroke of luck (as functions can be multiplied)"
The geometric content is basically that you can check ramification (algebraically) at stalks
That's the kind of thing where geometric meaning just stops existing
@MikeMiller Nope, we can change it
I just don't consider myself a derived nerd per se
but being a derived nerd is very handy. Every derived nerd has the structure of a triangulated nerd
16:22
Of course my perspective is immediately intersection homology
Probing by a good enough class of spaces that have boundary, boundary squared is zero, a notion of intersection, but so that the cone on a positive-dimensional test space is a test space
the last condition being the axiom about H(pt)
@MikeMiller Is that an answer to the question, though? That's a homology theory.
Contains about the same info as cohomology but still not quite it.
Oh, he's asking about the (co) and not the (homology).
Right.
I can describe homology just fine
Well, then cohomology is the theory of "functions on test spaces"
but it's kind of hard to say the product from this POV I guess
well, product is just multiplication of functions
That's not different than my description of cochains as PL functions on the simplicial complex, but he didn't find it very insightful I could tell
16:26
I don't agree, it also uses a coproduct on the simplex
(split a k+m-simplex into a k-simplex and then an m-simplex)
I see, that is true. So your test space description is harder.
In my case a test space is a simplex so I don't have to worry about that :)
I guess the fancy derived answer is that they are graded homotopy-functionals on $C_*(X)$.
I think if you told this guy that he'd probably shrug.
A degree d cohomology class is given by a map $C_*(X) \leftarrow C \to \Bbb Z_{(d)}$, where the leftarrow is an equivalence. It's like saying that you have functionals, but only defined on some of the complex, as long as it's enough,
"Intersection with a transverse chain" is one such functional and gives a cohomology class. "Integrate a form along smooth chains" is another functional
They're ways of eating chains, but because homotopy-theoretic things are so flexible we might need maps which are defined on more, or less, of $C_* X$
@loch well, you need some notion of genus for that. I don't think you can define that in such generality. But in the number-theoretic setting, there's a good notion of a genus and an analog of Riemann-Hurwitz holds. This is theorem 3.3.13 in Neukirch ANT
16:32
@BalarkaSen I think that some tools need new perspectives to understand them. (co)homology is probably one of these.
I agree. I feel like there really is no geometric content in "dualizing".
yeah
I think the "weak functional" idea there is not that bad, especially if C is considered as a quasi-isomorphic subcomplex instead of some larger thing
And captures at least two different geometric ideas
But it's still going to not be satisfying for someone who wants to see it
I have only recently started appreciating the "filter geometry through homological algebra" perspective, so I agree.
I do think the cohomotopy approach is something close to geometric for me at least, but that might be because I filter geometry through homotopical and cellular perspective
I think you get the cohomotopy approach when you filter geometry by the Postnikov filtration
16:41
random analogies between Riemann surfaces and ANT: the fact that $\Bbb P^1(\Bbb C)$ is simply connected, so it has no unramified cover, is the analog of the classical result due to Minkowski that $\Bbb Q$ has no unramified extensions which is also equivalent to the fact that $\pi_1^{ét}(\operatorname{Spec}(\Bbb Z))$ is trivial.
You can also phrase that in a very elementary way: take any irreducible monic polynomial in $\Bbb Z[x]$. Then there exists at least one prime $p$ such that $f$ has a multiple root mod $p$
@MatheinBoulomenos stars in the new hit Marvel movie, ANT man
(okay I guess the thing with polynomials doesn't fully prove that result of Minkowski, only in some special cases, but it's a consequence)
I'm mainly here to make really bad jokes
If I am honest, the de Rham perspective is non-geometric at the core too. The battery of differential forms is building a formal exterior algebra. Sure, you can write it all explicitly out and get the de Rham cohomology groups as obstructions to solving some PDEs. But that's not any more "insightful"
It's "cool" but that's distinct from "insightful"
I do not know if it's insightful but it's wrong-headed to say that differential forms are not geometric at their core. They're a fundamentally good language for higher derivatives and certain integral functionals
In the end it's still about having representatives for functionals on test spaces, I guess (I would suggest that differential forms are good ideas because k-forms clearly integrate well on k-manifolds)
16:47
I disagree. "Good language" is not the same as "geometric"
When one introduces differential forms in full, they start by building an exterior algebra generated by $dx_1, \cdots, dx_n$ pretty literally
That's not geometric, even if you can interpret it as such further on.
You don't work with them using a geometric principle, would be a better parsing, I suppose
there really seems to be a lot that carries over from Riemann surfaces that carries over to ANT: ramification, euler characteristic, genus, Riemann Roch, Galois groups corresponding to deck transformations, etc.
@BalarkaSen Yes, because they see that the change-of-variables formula involves a det(Jac) cross-term.
I disagree that "exterior algebra" inherently means non-geometric. It's being introduced for the geometric reason of the change-of-coordinates formula for integration.
I get what you mean, but I don't feel like I am using the geometric part of my brain when I prove something with differential forms. I use it to interpret my proof geometrically later on. But I feel like I am just doing symbol pushing in the exterior algebra
I guess you're the one in Bott and Tu right now
So I don't think geometric origin necessarily means geometric
16:54
I feel that you used to have a very expansive notion of 'geometric' that has now shrunk over time
That could be true
Bott-Tu started feeling like geometry when the Thom isomorphism came up
I think your notion of geometry might be too coordinate-invariant
you might be a topologist instead :0
I'm just a regular chad who likes math but can't do it
far from any form of ist
16:56
chadist
Oh, speaking of, I have been writing the following: sharelatex.com/read/mjhhrskykxqm
It's some trash but I'll expand it over time along with ploughing through B-T
Do Bott and Tu describe the Thom class as a fiberwise Gaussian on the normal bundle?
Fiberwise the generator of the compactly supported cohomology of the fiber minus origin, yes
@BalarkaSen do you mean graded-commutative $\Bbb R$-algebras in the last sentence of the first paragraph?
Ah, yes.
17:03
Note that Th(E) = E cup infty
Not if base is noncompact
oh sure
"Nobody cares about noncompact manifolds." - Mike Miller, 2018
Generically I don't either
Still think there is conceptual merit to the fiberwise construction though, instead of one point compactifying altogather
Same things, but the former seems to make the intuition that you should immediately integrate over fibers clear
Sure, "fiberwise compact support" is what I like better but it's the same of course
17:07
yeah
Better to think about relative cohomology of $(E, E - E_0)$ where $E_0$ is the zero section
I just write 0 for that
Than $(E^*, \infty)$, even though they are the same
Ah good notation
Singularly Thom isomorphism is fairly simple too. It's taking a class in $H^{n+k}(E, E - E_0)$ and then taking cap product (is that what it is called?) with the homology class $H_n(F, F-F_0)$ given by the choice of fiberwise orientation of the oriented bundle $E$ over $X$, which a class in $H^k(E)$ "transverse" to the fibers, which you push down to $H^k(X)$.
Maybe I should have wrote that in chain level
$H^k(X) \to H^{n+k}(E, E-E_0)$ is easier to describe nonetheless, by cup product with the Thom class like you said
Thom class being the thing in $H^n(E, E-E_0)$ which restricts to the orientation in $H^n(F, F-F_0)$
In homology Thom isomorphism is just a fiberwise suspension isomorphism :)
Ah true
17:22
@BalarkaSen sorry, if I'm annoying you with my ANT/ramification stuff, you can just say it.
There's another way to characterize ramification in the Galois/normal setting.
Suppose $L/K$ is a Galois extension of number fields (you can actually show that this is equivalent to the the action of $\operatorname{Aut}_K(L)$ on the fibers of the induced map $p:\operatorname{Spec}(\mathcal{O}_L) \to \operatorname{Spec}(\mathcal{O}_K)$ being transitive, just like for covering spaces)
Then for every $\mathfrak{p} \in \operatorname{Spec}(\mathcal{O}_K)$, we have a (transitive) action of $\operatorname{G
I don't think anybody is annoyed
I certainly am not!
oh I wasn't sure since you didn't respond to my ramblings
I wonder if one can give geometric meaning to the extension $\mathcal{O}_K/\mathfrak{p} \to \mathcal{O}_L/\mathfrak{q}$, since the analog for Riemann surfaces is always trivial
I remember that [L:K] formula from a long time ago
I didn't respond to it because I didn't understand it :)
What you wrote now is beautiful though
17:26
"we can have unramified coverings that still have different numbers of points in the fibers!"

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ljcub8mq5k1qehv22o1_500.jpg
@MikeMiller what was that, lol
I responded to the whole block, I thought the message I wanted to cite was just a single thing
(Yikes about a technical point as opposed to about the whole of ANT :P)
@MikeMiller isn't it obvious that the only reason this doesn't happen for Riemann surfaces is because $\Bbb C$ is algebraically closed? thonk
Little about this setting is obvious to me
I am too old and confused
I read the beginning of Cassels-Frohlich when I was an undergrad (stopped when I got to group cohomology and it confused me) so this rings a bell but nothing I can actually grasp
number theory is 2 hard
An embarrassing question I should ask anyway: $S \subset M^n$ be a closed $k$-manifold. Why is the Poincare dual to the fundamental class $[S] \in H_k^{sing}(M)$ given by the form $\eta \in H^{n-k}_{dR}(M)$ such that $\int_S \omega = \int_M \omega \wedge \eta$ for all $k$-forms $\omega$ on $S$? I usually understand the Poincare dual in the singular context to a class $\alpha \in H^{n-k}_{sing}(M)$ such that $[M] \cap \alpha \in H_k^{sing}(M)$ is the class $[S]$
What's a quick way to see these agree?
17:36
I don't know what cap product is in de Rham
Integrate your form over a bit of the simplex I guess
That's not insightful though
I think you need a vector bundle and a fiberwise integration operator.
Can you extend the normal bundle from S to be a bundle over the whole of M?
(Only clear to me when S is codimension 1)
I think codim 2 oriented works too
I too only know that in codimension 1
The map $\mathcal{O}_K/\mathfrak{p} \to \mathcal{O}_L/\mathfrak{q}$ is "almost" the map from the definition of ramification:
When we take the map that tells us about ramification, i.e. $(\mathcal{O}_K)_{\mathfrak{p}}/\mathfrak{p}(\mathcal{O}_K)_{\mathfrak{p}} \to (\mathcal{O}_L)_{\mathfrak{q}}/\mathfrak{p}(\mathcal{O}_L)_{\mathfrak{q}}$ and we quotient out all the nilpotents, then the residue field extension $\mathcal{O}_K/\mathfrak{p} \to \mathcal{O}_L/\mathfrak{q}$ is what we get.
So I guess in some sense this difference between ANT and Riemann surfaces, geometrically speaking is that whe
This is only true locally, of course. The induced extension of meromorphic function fields (which I'd like to think as the map induced "at the generic point", although we don't really have that since geometers are weird and like their spaces Hausdorff) will be a nontrivial extension unless the map is an isomorphism
So I guess number theory is more complicated "locally" in some sense than Riemann surfaces
Another difference is that locally all points in a Riemann surface look the same which isn't true for number fields
17:51
Cohen structure theorem is the relevant homogeneity result in the algebra world I think
Upto profinite completion of the local ring good schemes look the same at every point
Something like that
that's not a profinite completion, but a $\mathfrak{m}$-adic completion, but yeah
that's definitely a homogenity result
Right, thanks
so a small formal neighborhood for Riemann surfaces is $\Bbb C\{\{x\}\}$ (at every point), whereas a small formal neighborhood of $p$ looks like $\Bbb Z_p$ and $\Bbb Z_p$ is not the same as $\Bbb Z_q$ for $p \neq q$
Open conjecture: Is P = NP? Mathein Boulomenos: P $\neq$ P, that much is clear
lmao
well every statement with "for $p \neq p$" isn't wrong, at least
17:57
mumbles something paradoxical about your very message containing "for $p \neq p$"
I am too sleepy to pull that off
18:18
Hey @Ted!
@TedShifrin is the Jacobian of a Riemann surface like the Hilbert class field of a number field?
Oh let me add Ted to the room
@TedShifrin You can converse now!
If $K$ is a number field and $L$ is the Hilbert class field, then we have an exact sequence
$ 1 \to (\mathcal{O}_K)^\times \to K^\times \to \operatorname{I}(K) \to \operatorname{Gal}(L/K) \to 1$, where $\operatorname{I}(K)$ is the group of fractional ideals in $K$. The last map is the Artin map from class field theory.

I found an exact sequence in these notes, that looks reall similar:

$0 \to \Bbb C^\times \to \mathcal{M}^*(X) \to \operatorname{Div}_0(X) \to \operatorname{Jac}(X) \to 0$, where $X$ is a compact Riemann surface
So I guess this is kind of geometric Artin reciprocity?
Ah, it seems that $\operatorname{Jac}(X)$ is related to $H^1(X, \Bbb Z)$. This is like in number theory. $L/K$ is the maximally unramified abelian extension. But since $H^1(X, \Bbb Z) = \pi_1(X)^{ab}$, this also describes abelian unramified coverings
hmm, now I want to understand this Jacobian thing
 
1 hour later…
19:45
Fun irrelevant fact - you can prove associativity of group law on the elliptic curve using the fact that it is isomorphic to its own pic0
20:02
@loch I did know that elliptic curves are isomorphic to their pic0, but not that you can use that to prove associativity, that's pretty cool
 
3 hours later…
23:28
Speaking of Thom class, recently I'm trying to learn some K-theory (mainly for the intersection theory aspect) and I find the idea that you can develop Thom class / chern classes etc. in complex K-theory (or more generally in any complex oriented generalised cohomology theory) pretty fascinating

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