JEE Chemistry Club

Yuvraj

04:36

@Safdar hi

ronak jain

06:29

@YusufHasan hi ! Are you here ?

ronak jain

07:03

@Safdar hi

@Safdar @satan29 @sai-kartik is anyone among you around ? I have to ask something

Safdar

you can ask you know..

ronak jain

@Safdar actually I had confusion in Gibbs free energy. And I want a discussion

Safdar

then give me 10 mins.. ill be there then..

ronak jain

Ok ping me when you are back

ronak jain

07:33

@Safdar are you done now ?

Safdar

@ronakjain what is your doubt?

ronak jain

@Safdar if you don't mind can you look at my conversation with John Rannie sir. I had described that in room for me and John Rannie

@Safdar look at the total conversation of today....

Safdar

@ronakjain What is it that you want to prove? del(G) = del(Go) +RTln(Q)?

ronak jain

@Safdar did you read the complete discussion. That's not too long. The proof of this is not problem.

Safdar

@ronakjain I couldn't understand properly. Or gibbs free energy at a given time t?

ronak jain

07:40

Ok let me explain....

Safdar

not considering kinetics ofcourse.

ronak jain

Firstly tell me thet is it true that Gibbs function of any species is G = G° + RTln(C). Right ?

@Safdar right ?

Safdar

@ronakjain Here Go is? standard free energy of what?

ronak jain

For any species. G° is its standard Gibbs function. I will use subscript for different species.

Ok so far ?

@Safdar tell me is it right or not ?

Safdar

@ronakjain One min.. I need to understand this part properly...

ronak jain

07:43

Ok

Safdar

Lemme just read up on this quick..

ronak jain

Should I continue ?

Safdar

@ronakjain I don't think you can write it exactly like this for a given product..

ronak jain

@Safdar are you talking about my paper clip that I posted ?

Safdar

@ronakjain yes (and no) the method as a whole.. It is fine to say the change in free energy is so and so.. however, we have only ways to calculate the difference in free energy and not actual values of free energy. [I think]

@ronakjain I am not exactly sure if this is valid..

ronak jain

07:50

@Safdar but the books also calculate the exact value with their method ? Can you tell me whether my method is correct or not ? I just only want to derive the expression for gibbs free energy change and reaction quotient

Ok

So, I will have to talk to someone else

Safdar

Because from what you state, if G value is positive then, it is reacts [But with what?]

@ronakjain This formula is derived using chemical potential.. Which is currently not taught in syllabus.. that may be why it seems so confusing.. basically, they use dG=Sigma(udN) to prove this.

ronak jain

Ok

Safdar

Wikipedia has a pretty good proof on how this happens.. but you have to keep in mind that it is fine if you don't understand because right now this is out of scope..

ronak jain

But how will you define Gibbs free energy change of reaction when concentration of species are given. For example....

Safdar

@ronakjain Same way, that is what chemical potential is all about..

It helps you identify the direction of a reaction.. Similar to E in electrochemistry.

ronak jain

07:54

Consider thd reaction....aA + bB = cC + dD. And we are given the concentration of a = (A) of b = (B) and of c = (C) and for d = (D).

Safdar

@ronakjain I would have to prove it right now, if you wish to understand.. you fine with that?

ronak jain

@Safdar So in this case how will you define gibbs free energy of reaction ?

Ok

Safdar

You have mathJax? [would make it easier]

ronak jain

Yes

Safdar

then give me a min.. lemme type it out and i'll send it part by part.

ronak jain

07:57

Ok

Safdar

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_equilibrium#Thermodynamics Actually this would be enough..

ronak jain

Let me see....

@Safdar actually I think this is also something like proof of my book though it uses an extra udN

Let me show you

Safdar

The reaction they have taken is:

$$\ce{\alpha A + \beta B -> \sigma S + \tau T}$$

@ronakjain If this were $\mu$ then it would have been correct.

@RobinSingh Hey.

Robin Singh

Hi

Safdar

Wassup.. how's life.

Robin Singh

08:03

Going good

Aap batao

Safdar

@RobinSingh aap? ithna respect kaha se aaya re? accha chal raha hai abhi..

:P

Robin Singh

lol!

ronak jain

@Safdar this is how my book proves the relation .

Safdar

@ronakjain what is Po?

Robin Singh

Can someone answer that why a group can't a group "exert" +M/-M effect on phenyl ring if it is non-planar to it? And is it just in case of Phenyl ring?

ronak jain

08:05

@Safdar its standard pressure at which Gibbs function is G°

Safdar

@ronakjain they've over simplified it..

ronak jain

@Safdar ok. To go ahead , tell me that what was problem in ky method which I had derived in room with John sir

Safdar

@RobinSingh Resonance needs planarity no? how do you expect to overlap properly when there is an angle between the two?

@ronakjain Simply put, your initial assumption is wrong..

whatever happens after doesn't work then..

Robin Singh

Are you guys going to give NSEP/NSEC?

ronak jain

@Safdar but why ? That will tell the difference in Gibbs function in between two states. And that will be Gibbs free energy between two states

Safdar

08:12

@RobinSingh do you really wanna write that for the 3rd time?

Robin Singh

@Safdar What?

Safdar

@ronakjain states.. not reaction co-ordinates [don't mix them up]

@RobinSingh technically those who were in 12th before corona are now 12+ and would be writing for the third time

Robin Singh

@Safdar I was in 11th before corona and I never gave NSEP/NSEC

Safdar

@RobinSingh ok then fine..

Robin Singh

@Safdar How did you perform in NSE's in previous years?

Safdar

08:15

My bad then.. age is pretty difficult to calculate online.. thought you were in 12th+..

@RobinSingh qualified astronomy [then forgot to register for the next round]

Robin Singh

@Safdar I had the same confusion when you said that you are 12th prepping

Safdar

@RobinSingh Well

I've passed 12th officially.. so now I am a....

what am I? other than a human..

Robin Singh

@Safdar Delving into philosophy now XD

@Safdar Which book did you solve for organic?

Safdar

not a dropper, haven't dropped a year.. not a repeater, first attempt.. not in 12th anymore but also not in college.. Hmm..

Robin Singh

@Safdar Seems like a nice riddle

Safdar

08:18

@RobinSingh MS chauhan.

Robin Singh

Why not himanshu pandey?

Safdar

@RobinSingh have both.. faculty told to solve MSC so did that.. now solving HP..

Robin Singh

Ohk

Safdar

@RobinSingh have a pdf of it.. too lazy actually.

Robin Singh

Chalo phir ok bye

Safdar

08:19

cya,

ronak jain

@RobinSingh is Himanshu Pandey faculty of AIIMS ?

Yuvraj

08:46

@Safdar can you help me in a riddle

Safdar

@Yuvraj I'll try why not..

Yuvraj

@Safdar actually Grignard look for the acidic hydrogen for the best,and if it is not there it goes for the lone pair if i have RMgx compound if react it with a ethylene oxide what you feel what would happen?

Safdar

@Yuvraj Will attack on one side and open the ring..

Yuvraj

continue?

Safdar

So then R-CH2-CH2-OMgBr forms.

Yuvraj

09:00

if you hydrolysis it then?

Safdar

@Yuvraj primary alcohol forms..

Yuvraj

but answer says a aldehyde group is formed

in between

Safdar

What? chem.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Organic_Chemistry/….

Same reaction is given there.. no aldehyde..

Yuvraj

sorry i frogot to mention it was with the thf

Safdar

@Yuvraj as solvent?

Yuvraj

09:08

yup

so it would turn R2Mg +MgX_2

Safdar

@Yuvraj that is also ether right? that is the reason for stabilisation of grignard in medium..

Yuvraj

yes there is the ether ?

then?

Robin Singh

@ronakjain @ronakjain He is a coaching teacher somewhere in Bhilai-youtube.com/watch?v=ntaILcUw2X8

ronak jain

Ok

Safdar

@Yuvraj bc.edu/content/dam/bc1/schools/mcas/Chemistry/pdf/undergrad/… Do you mean something like this>

Yuvraj

09:17

@Safdar i got my answer one more question if i react Grignard with a compound who has both alcohol as well as carbonyl group where does it react and why?

Safdar

@Yuvraj Alcohol..

Acid base reaction is must faster..

*much

Yuvraj

with aldehyde and ketonic group?

Safdar

2 days ago, by Yusuf Hasan

3

A: Mechanism of three-membered lactone hydrolysis in base

According to Organic Chemistry: Second Edition,[1, pg 934](from which I assume that the question was taken): Enantiomerically pure (R)-2-bromopropanoic acid reacts with concentrated sodium hydroxide to give (S)-lactic acid. The reaction goes with inversion and is a typical SN2 reaction—and a goo...

Similar to this

@Yuvraj aldehyde since nucleophilic attack happens at more electrophilic center..

Yuvraj

what i feel is rather than electrophilic it would be due to steric hindrance?

Safdar

@Yuvraj both actually.. ketone is at a disadvantage regarding both..

Yuvraj

09:22

ok thanks

Safdar

@sai-kartik what is your profile pic?

sai-kartik

@Safdar Miles Morales

heard of him?

Safdar

@sai-kartik Spiderman the kid one..

sai-kartik

yep

Safdar

@sai-kartik almost typed assassins creed there :D

sai-kartik

09:26

@Safdar lmaooo

so what you doing now?

Safdar

@sai-kartik Solving physics Q..

sai-kartik

ahh nice

Safdar

Suggestions for good music?

sai-kartik

you have any special organic questions?

@Safdar Gryffin(Artist)

for like soft edm

Safdar

@sai-kartik Anything else? something louder..

sai-kartik

09:29

Also have you heard Alec Benjamin's songs

Safdar

@sai-kartik I'll sleep if I listen to this now..

@sai-kartik Used to.. then heard it too many times and then stopped

sai-kartik

@Safdar no no like its the catchy type

but not heavy metal

listen to Bye Bye by gryffin

youll get the idea

Safdar

@sai-kartik you don't know.. I am at the point where rock might let me fall asleep..

sai-kartik

@Safdar what.even.

XD

but just try once

Safdar

@sai-kartik yeah sure..

sai-kartik

09:32

How about the script?

Safdar

@sai-kartik Think I've already listened to griffin before.. not sure.

@sai-kartik too many times still..

sai-kartik

@Safdar gryffin*

aight i gtg now

before i go..

Safdar

I listened to music for 12 hours straight for the last month..

Yuvraj

guys i one more confusion i have in books is if i says phrnol react with hbr do issume medium to be water

sai-kartik

5 mins ago, by sai-kartik

you have any special organic questions?

@Safdar dauym

Yuvraj

09:33

means neutra;\\\

sai-kartik

@Yuvraj It should be mentioned

cus you have two separate reactions

Safdar

@sai-kartik not really.. I just go with the flow.

sai-kartik

@Safdar ohh okay..

Yuvraj

there is no mention

our teacher says assume hbr +h2o

sai-kartik

hmm

Safdar

09:34

@Yuvraj you can assume water as solvent but what you get would be tri-substituted bromophenol.. [i think]

like Br on o- and p- positions

Yuvraj

@Safdar why? h in hbr does not react with oh?

Safdar

@sai-kartik is there a difference?

@Yuvraj after that?

@Yuvraj positive charge cannot come on benzene right? SN2 also doesn't work I think..

Yuvraj

@Safdar can you show the mechanism

Safdar

@Yuvraj Is it fine if this happens later in the evening?

... or wait.

Yuvraj

ok around 6

by the way do not pping my brother

it is his account i use it usually for my queries

Safdar

09:37

quora.com/Why-do-phenols-not-react-with-hydrobromic-acid

@Yuvraj Aahh..

I understand now.. It was so confusing..

Yuvraj

@Safdar sorry i should have told you before

everybody feels the same

Safdar

@Yuvraj no no its fine.. Btw its no reaction.. phenol doesn't react what I said was for Br2

@Yuvraj why do you not have your own account?

Yuvraj

@Safdar it do not have my own phone or pc

Safdar

@Yuvraj You are using chrome right? Can't you just make a different user on it?

Yuvraj

it is with them so creating my account is of no use

Safdar

09:41

@Yuvraj who? them??

Yuvraj

two brothers

b the way can you tell me why do not they react?

Safdar

@Yuvraj Same reason as message above this..

Yuvraj

thanks though

Safdar

@Yuvraj no prob.. Why not ask your brother though? just asking..

@Yuvraj Which grade are you in?

Alright then gotta go.. I would be online but that is b/c I have it open in another tab. do not expect a reply when you ping me.

Guru Vishnu

11:38

If anyone is interested, I've asked that question on the main site:

0

Q: Mechanism for the addition of hydrogen iodide to 3,3‐dimethylbut‐1‐yne

The following reaction mechanism was given as a solution to a solved problem in my textbook1 for the addition of hydrogen iodide to 3,3‐dimethylbut‐1‐yne: It can be seen that that 2,2-diiodo-3,3-dimethylbutane (a geminal dihalide) is the product according to this mechanism. I arrived at a differ...

Not advertising though :P

satan 29

12:11

@GuruVishnu +1.

Safdar

@GuruVishnu I've added a comment.. that should be the reason..

not advertising here as well :P

satan 29

13:04

@CaptainBohemian what brings you here?

Captain Bohemian

13:15

@satan29 you

Yusuf Hasan

Yello

Safdar

@YusufHasan hey..

Yusuf Hasan

13:31

@Safdar About your issue...I don't see if we can do much without reporting to mods or confronting

Safdar

@YusufHasan you sure

Yusuf Hasan

13:51

Yes...A third option would be reporting the specific comments and/or answers where the condescending stuff has been said..It might be that the mods don't directly question you, or it bypasses them...Either way, flagging stuff seems the most indirect way to do the reporting, if a mod doesn't have to be invloved directly

satan 29

14:02

@CaptainBohemian aww

Guru Vishnu

@Safdar That definitely solved the problem. But I'm unable to find a green tick to accept it. Thank you :-)

Safdar

@GuruVishnu I'll add an answer later, if no one else does.. currently not free..

Guru Vishnu

@satan29 Thank you. That wasn't needed though. Seems it finally became an ad :/

@Safdar No problem! Understood.

Safdar

14:33

Are unacademy's classes good for phy?

Yusuf Hasan

15:04

@Safdar For that benzaldehyde thing, I didn't pay attention closely but the phenol only should migrate as it can stabilize the TS by it's electron rich nature

This is the TS^

This is how it can stabilize

Hrishabh Nayal

17:10

Hi guys I am facing problem with this rather simple looking question

Safdar

The D is removed I assume.

satan 29

the double bond is on the right side

Safdar

E2 occurs anti periplanar

so is Br is towards us, then the H/D away from us is removed.

@satan29 A bit too slow? :P

satan 29

@HrishabhNayal remember that in E2 elimination, the X and H/D have to be anti-periplanar

Hrishabh Nayal

Oh thanks

Safdar

17:12

@satan29 Bzzt

Hrishabh Nayal

Btw why tho

Why anti-periplanar

satan 29

You cant remove H, since that is on the same side of the plane as Br

Safdar

@HrishabhNayal steric hindrance due to halogen would be a simple explanation..

Hrishabh Nayal

@Safdar Ok

And what about E1?

satan 29

E1 is simply by CC...

Safdar

17:14

@HrishabhNayal Carbocation formation happens.. that is RDS.. so no difference

@satan29 you answer. one of us at a time..

Hrishabh Nayal

So in E1 what would have happend in the above question?

satan 29

CC forms--->rearranges(if possible)

so here i believe it will be a hydride-shift first

Hrishabh Nayal

@satan29 right there seems to be a possibility for 3° there so H shift?

Safdar

@satan29 One doubt though.. Will double bond go up or down after that?

satan 29

@Safdar didnt get you?

Hrishabh Nayal

17:19

Closer or away from D atom?

Safdar

@satan29 One min.. I'll share an image.. which product would be more likely there?

satan 29

@HrishabhNayal it will go to the left

Safdar

@satan29 why?

satan 29

isnt it simply more stable there?

due to HC?

Hrishabh Nayal

@satan29 further from D?

@satan29 HC?

satan 29

17:20

@HrishabhNayal yes

Safdar

@satan29 D does show HC.. but I agree with you..

satan 29

@HrishabhNayal hyper conjugation

Hrishabh Nayal

@Safdar cause D has less stable HCs?

Safdar

@HrishabhNayal the bond is harder to break..so yeah..

satan 29

And then finally an H + from the adjacent carbon, to yield an alkene

@Safdar Although i dont understand this:

Hrishabh Nayal

17:23

@satan29 Ok

Thanks guys!

Safdar

If you have propyl bromide Br on C1 and D on C2, the whole molecule rotates so that H becomes antiperiplanar to Br before attacking.

@satan29 you don't understand HC or D being less stable?

satan 29

isnt Hyper-conjugation a kind of overlap between an sp3 orbital and a vacant p? (in case of carbocations)

Safdar

@satan29 yeah.. not exact overlap but sort of.

satan 29

so then I dont see how D "shows hyper-conjugation"

Safdar

@satan29 why not?

Its exactly similar to H. they are isotopes after all.

satan 29

17:27

you require a h/D bonded to an sp3 carbon

Right??

in hyperconjugation

Safdar

@satan29 yep.

@satan29 btw, here HC takes place after bond formation K..

satan 29

ok wait i think now i get your point

the possibility of HC with D is if the CC didnt rearrange

Safdar

@satan29 Yeah/

satan 29

my bad. I was thinking you were shifting the CC to the right, and then claiming that HC happens with D. Which baffled me.

Safdar

@satan29 oh. *thumbs_up

satan 29

17:31

although, say this was E1

"nd then finally an H + from the adjacent carbon, to yield an alkene" in this step

kaha se nikalega H?

Safdar

@satan29 We did do a hydride shift so it is there, but wouldn't the reaction happen to the other side?

satan 29

I think this is the time to draw structures...

Safdar

CH3 on right is D.. couldn't get that.

@satan29

satan 29

yes ofcourse those are the two products

my queston was, which one will be major?

Safdar

@satan29 down one.

since C-D bond is harder to break so less effective HC

satan 29

17:41

and another question, how did you know that H- after shift is in Dashed position?

@Safdar Ah!

Safdar

@satan29 can be either.. did not want to draw four structures.

satan 29

yeah haha thought so

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