English Language Learners

StoneyB

17:00

Some do, some don't. It depends on your font.

@MARamezani You have paraphrased it as a relative clause. That doesn't necessarily mean that it is a reduced relative clause.

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India Oh, is it the same OP?

MARamezani

@StoneyB I see what you mean.

Good thing I didn't spread misinformation.

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. Oh I see, I didn't notice it.

yes same :-)

Jim Reynolds

Yes. We must punish Kaptan Singh's promiscuity!

Damkerng T.

> The other problem is that "informing" and "information" are not countable nouns. So we don't say one informing, two informings, and we don't say an informing or an information.

I think that's incorrect.

Man_From_India's OED says, clearly, that it's a count noun, too.

StoneyB

17:06

Some very distinguished linguists --John Lawler, for instance-- claim that any such postposed adjectival is a reduced relative, and that perhaps all attributive adjectives should be parsed as reduced relatives. I think that's BS.

Man_From_India

@JimReynolds I also sometimes cross post in various stackexchange, but only when I don't receive good answer or satisfactory answer, or no answer :-) I don't think there is any problem with asking in multiple stackexchange.

Damkerng T.

I think "out there" was used to make it a bit more obvious that it's not "in here".

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. Yes it does say. And in that case one & two can be used before informing, but that usage of informing as count noun is now rare. I think earlier it was okay to say one informing or two informings etc.

Jim Reynolds

And Brian What's his name ... needs to be punished, too.

"and you expect the reader to take this as a noun (the gerund, "informing"), you are asking the reader to parse it like this:

He left me without (something).
So you are saying it's like :

He left me without bread.

He left me without a clue."

So, He left me without screaming would mean that I no longer have scream?

Damkerng T.

Good point!

Man_From_India

17:11

Now this time Brian is on Jim's plate.

Damkerng T.

Good dish!

StoneyB

@Man_From_India SE is quite clear in deprecating cross-posting: meta.stackexchange.com/a/64073/268804

Jim Reynolds

Haha.

Man_From_India

@StoneyB oh i see :-( I also did some cross posting :-(

Jim Reynolds

I'll take care of that.

Eats Man From India's head.

Crunchy!

Man_From_India

17:13

Please no _/_ spare me this time, Jimbie :'(

Jim Reynolds

Mr Singh's final "Oh, yes, I do understand now."

I don't think so.

Stop talking from your neck! It's sick!!

StoneyB

Now: I see no harm in reposting on ELU a question which does not receive a satisfactory answer on ELL, provided that you rewrite the question to distinguish it -- specifically, to exclude the sorts of answer you got in the first version.

Jim Reynolds

Zaghie !

StoneyB

(But if it belonged on ELL to begin with, you shoulda written it correctly there.)

Zaghie

anyone familiar with the matrix-toe variant of tic tac toe whereby the aim is to make a matrix invertible?

Jim Reynolds

17:15

Another ****ie

Man_From_India

Ahh that is what I did in most of the cases, and also linked ELL question, if I post it in ELU later or vice versa.

StoneyB

Copacetic.

Zaghie

I guess not.

Jim Reynolds

Inverted matrices. Sounds like something @Damkerng T. could produce if we turned him upside down and shook him.

Zaghie

so you are? Because I'm wondering what the winning strategy is in the 3x3 case

Damkerng T.

17:18

I wondered why that didn't ping me. Oh, I turned off my monitor!

Jim Reynolds

No, not me, Zaghie.

Is there anyone around in puzzles, maybe?

puzzles chat?

Zaghie

I'll check, thanks for the ref!

Jim Reynolds

:D

Damkerng T.

@Zaghie I'm not familiar with the game, but apparently Math SE discussed it: mathoverflow.net/questions/45672/…

My first hunch: the problem could look deceitfully easy.

> An homage to Nicolas Roeg

!

trying to listen to that clip again...

Wow! Indeed!

How could a learner know it's Nicolas Roeg knowing virtually nothing about the movie!?

(Also, my VLC cuts off at /n/ in "allusions".)

ELL status: 15,016 questions

A: "Class, tell me, what have the Chinese invented?" B: "The Chinese have invented Chinese checkers." C: "The Chinese have invented Chinese food." D: "The Chinese have invented gunpowder." -- It seems to me that you can use the present perfect in some contexts. — F.E. 10 mins ago

A nice counter-example!

Damkerng T.

18:43

@F.E. Sorry for the interruption. I'd like to check if my hypothesis is correct. Would you think this sounds odd? Interviewer: "What have you accomplished in your professional life?" Interviewee: "I've founded B&B, my own bakery franchise." — Damkerng T. 1 min ago

excited!

@DamkerngT. I would consider that quite natural. The present perfect in the answer sorta echoes the present perfect of the question, and the present perfect is good when giving accomplishments that are important to the current discussion. For it is expected for the interviewee to respond by saying, basically, I have done this, I have done that, etc., and these things that I have done are related to this position that I am interviewing for. — F.E. 2 mins ago

Interesting!

StoneyB

So, Law51 has taken his quixotic quest to understand English through etymology to Linguistics now: linguistics.stackexchange.com/q/12024/1597

Ilan

hi

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB I remember that he mentioned language (or maybe linguistics) in his(?) profile!

@Ilan Hi!

@Ilan How was the test going? (I remember your test was in March, but I may misremember it.)

Ilan

I did it well

Damkerng T.

Hooray!

Ilan

18:52

bye the way: how do I say: I pass the test with great expression?

:)

Damkerng T.

How long do you have to wait before they'll tell you the result?

Ilan

I got it actually

Damkerng T.

Casually, I would use something plain, like: I pass the test just fine, or I pass the test nicely.

@Ilan Ah, I see. Congrats!

Ilan

I mean, I did not get the official papers

but the online tool says I did well

great that you remember!

it was a very very hard work

Damkerng T.

@Ilan I remember it!

Ilan

18:54

a work? urgg

I did not leave the house 4 months

Damkerng T.

Another way to say it is to shift your focus to your success: It was a great success!

@Ilan Ahh... It paid off nicely!

Ilan

I did not have energy after that

for 3 weeks

I was exhausted

Damkerng T.

(Or a bit more formal--though still not very formal: It paid off well)

@Ilan Hehe!

Ilan

even after the test there was aftermovement

unbelievable

Damkerng T.

aftermovement? I guess you mean you can't stop learning English now. :-)

Ilan

18:56

I continue to learn even after the test: it shaped my mind

Damkerng T.

Hehe! Good!

Ilan

now I can

Damkerng T.

But you don't want to, right? :-)

Ilan

I still don't know English

:(

Damkerng T.

Eh?

Ilan

18:58

I can manage you I can say so, but I don't understand movies

I don't have a good spoken dict

Damkerng T.

Ah, I see.

How do you watch English movies?

Ilan

yep

I don't have subtitles

Damkerng T.

I mean, in English? with subtitles? etc. -- Ahh.

Ilan

so I watch on youtube

yep

hm

Damkerng T.

When you said you don't understand movies, did you mean you don't understand their speech or you don't understand the English in subtitles?

Ilan

19:00

I feel there no end to learn

I don't understand speech of course

I have very good "dead" vocabulary :)

Damkerng T.

I suppose so! I mean, we always learn, even our first language!

@Ilan I see. So, it's about either listening or maybe common expressions used in real, spoken English.

Ilan

yes I should continue

you know.. I've started from 5.5 point in IELTS

Damkerng T.

They're related, but not quite the same problem.

nods

Ilan

and 1.5 points to gain took 2 years!

Damkerng T.

Sweat and tears!

(Maybe blood, too!)

Ilan

19:04

bloody English!

Damkerng T.

lol

MARamezani

Hullo!

@Ilan That's a start!

Ilan

:)

@DamkerngT. do you have a mac?

Damkerng T.

I do!

Ilan

??

really?

Damkerng T.

19:09

Yes.

Ilan

retina?

Damkerng T.

I don't know. (Actually I don't care!) It's a not too new, not too old iMac.

Ilan

it is not retina :)

Damkerng T.

Ahh... With the eyesight I have, I don't care about the sharpness of my display anymore.

(Actually, reading web pages on anything too sharp is a bit painful.)

@Ilan Are you thinking about buying one? :-)

Ilan

I have actually

pretty good one

but in future I've buy iMac (in addition to macbook)

Damkerng T.

19:17

Nice!

Ilan

I just have some issues with screen recording

Thought you have a retina too

Damkerng T.

Ahh... Sorry!

MARamezani

Sleepy am I. Bye guys!

Ilan

:)

bye

Damkerng T.

Sleep tight! Don't let Jim bite!

:D

> Herbicides used to clear railways and railway embankments are not selective …(?)… all plant with which they come into contact.
http://ell.stackexchange.com/q/54603/3281

A middle voice! Interesting!

(I'm more comfortable with Herbicides are used to clear ... or Herbicides are used for clearing ...)

Ilan

19:22

I suppose "clearing the railway" is weird

Damkerng T.

Oh, I see. The (?) part twists how the sentence looks.

Reading it again, I think it makes sense like this:

> [Herbicides used to clear railways and railway embankments] are not selective ...

Ilan

I agree

Ilan

20:21

@snailboat

hi

Anonymous

20:36

Hello!

Anonymous

have invented seems fine to me. Of course, whether it's appropriate depends on context

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Hello! I was wondering if the in the printer would make any difference.

Looks like it doesn't.

I'm off to test something. Please ping me when or if you'd like to talk. Thanks.

Anonymous

21:00

@DamkerngT. Can we discuss a complete sentence? "The Chinese have invented printer" seems ungrammatical, but I feel like I'm probably misinterpreting your question

Damkerng T.

Ah, here is the thing. The question reminds me of that discussion we had last year, something about the use of the present perfect with definite stuff is prohibited.

A: "Class, tell me, what have the Chinese invented?" B: "The Chinese have invented Chinese checkers." C: "The Chinese have invented Chinese food." D: "The Chinese have invented gunpowder." -- It seems to me that you can use the present perfect in some contexts. — F.E. 4 hours ago

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. You can understand the sentence as "Herbicides ~~which are~~ used to..." but not "Herbicides ~~are~~ used to..." because the entire phrase is one big subject

Damkerng T.

When I found that comment, I agree with F.E., but I wonder if he would still feel the same if I restricted the meaning to be definite somehow.

@snailboat Ah, that's a different sentence. I was confused by .... (?) .... which I didn't know what it was supposed to mean at that time.

Back to the printer question. When I found this comment:

@Catija Interviewer: "Why should we consider you as a CEO for our startup business? What are your qualifications?" You: "I have founded a company …" — F.E. 3 hours ago

I thought it was a good opportunity to test my idea, so I asked:

@F.E. Sorry for the interruption. I'd like to check if my hypothesis is correct. Would you think this sounds odd? Interviewer: "What have you accomplished in your professional life?" Interviewee: "I've founded B&B, my own bakery franchise." — Damkerng T. 2 hours ago

My idea was to check if it still sounded okay if I turned a company to something definite (B&B in my example).

And here is the reply:

@DamkerngT. I would consider that quite natural. The present perfect in the answer sorta echoes the present perfect of the question, and the present perfect is good when giving accomplishments that are important to the current discussion. For it is expected for the interviewee to respond by saying, basically, I have done this, I have done that, etc., and these things that I have done are related to this position that I am interviewing for. — F.E. 2 hours ago

Which means that my idea doesn't work.

Anonymous

I'm afraid I don't recall out earlier discussion

Anonymous

Our

Damkerng T.

21:08

It was something about a cookie or a muffin. I can't recall the exact sentence.

But I was stumbled upon a page of a book on Google Books.

Which related indefinite to the present perfect, and that was a big surprise to me.

Anonymous

It's a surprise to me too, but maybe it would make sense in context…

Damkerng T.

I think it was like: Did you make that muffin yourself? vs. Have you made that muffin yourself?

(I'm not even sure whether it was make or bake.)

Anonymous

Oh, where the perfect would be interpreted as experiential so it's infelicitous?

Damkerng T.

Yes!

Where Have you (ever) made muffins yourself? is fine.

Anonymous

It does make more sense to me in that sort of example to refer to a class of things, not to a specific instance of that class

Damkerng T.

21:12

Maybe Murphy's discussion wasn't intended to be experiential, but when all other possible readings failed, the experiential reading is usually my default fallback reading.

nods

Anonymous

Sorry, whatever I said back then must have been insufficient as an explanation

Damkerng T.

I think it was sufficient enough. :-)

I think it's just that it had a substantial impact to the order I use when I try to read marginal sentences in the present perfect.

(I tried to read The Chinese have invented the printer as The Chinese have ever invented the printer, which, of course, is weird.)

In any case, this is still a bit tricky, and it's still difficult to explain it in words (for other learners).

For example, "What English novels have you read?" "I've read Asimov's, among others."

I can replace Asimov's with any specific title, and the sentence still sounds fine.

(My idea is that, it's still indefinite because it's unclear when exactly I read that in that sentence.)

So I think Murphy's

> We can't use the present perfect if there's no connection with present.

though sounds like good advice, it's not really good advice.

(It think it'd be clear to anyone who tried to think about it as a definition or a rule for the present perfect. Even δοῦλος's answer admits that, though not explicitly: Of course, even the simple past tense makes some historical connection with the present: [...]

So it's not surprising why a lot of learners/non-native speakers use English present perfect differently from native speakers.

Anonymous

21:36

The present relevance / connection with the present idea is what I describe as a resulting state continuing at the reference time

Anonymous

With an experiential perfect that's the state of having the experience

Anonymous

Ideally that state should be relevant to the discourse

StoneyB

And on Gricean principles it must be interpreted as relevant to the discourse.

Nishiyama and Koenig argue -convincingly, to my mind- that the 'meaning' of a PrPf is assertion of a current state arising out of the prior eventuality, but it is left to the hearer to infer the nature of that state.

Damkerng T.

21:55

If I pretend to not know how I should use the present perfect, I think I can allow myself to think that "What English novels have you read?" "I've read 'Forward the Foundation' in 2010. I've read 'Prelude to the Foundation' in 2011. I've read 'Next' in 2012." is good usage.

I didn't mean to oppose Nishiyama and Koenig's. I'm trying to come up with a really good way to explain the usage in words.

(Or in graphs and charts, even!)

StoneyB

22:07

Ah. But The present perfect is a present tense; it asserts a present state, which cannot be located in the past. You can't say I've read 'Forward the Foundation' in 2010 for the same reason you can't say I'm happy yesterday.

Damkerng T.

Great counterpoint! Thanks!

StoneyB

By the same token, you can't say The Chinese have invented printing for the same reason you can't say (this is the 'canonical' argument) Einstein has visited Princeton: Einstein and the Chinese who invented printing are dead and cannot support an assertion about their present state of experience.

The only way you can make these sentences work is by embedding them in a context where the topic is Princeton's experience of famous visitors and the entire history of Chinese ingenuity.

... I've got sausages about to burn on the stove--gotta run.

Damkerng T.

Oh, no!

See you later. And thank you so much!

Anonymous

23:21

In the right context you can say it. Like in a video game like Civilization where each nation is inventing stuff. The game might report this news to you: "The Chinese have invented printing."

Anonymous

I don't suppose anyone here has played Civilization...? :-) That's one of the computer games I had when I was little

Anonymous

It taught me about triremes!

Damkerng T.

23:36

@snailboat Ah, that sounds quite like a good example of Hot News!

@snailboat I'm not even sure how to read it, triremes!

ELL status: 15,019 questions

Now I'm sure we have only 10-11 questions this Sunday!

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