English Language Learners

Damkerng T.

12:36 AM

ELL status: 15,011 questions

Anonymous

12:53 AM

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Former and latter are usually paired

Anonymous

It sounds rather unusual contrasting the first with the latter

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Yes, I felt weird after typing it.

But what are those pictures?

Anonymous

Beatrice Warde

Beatrice Warde (September 20, 1900— September 16, 1969, née Beatrice Becker), was a communicator on typography. She was the only daughter of May Lamberton Becker, a journalist on the staff of the New York Herald Tribune, and Gustave Becker, composer and teacher. Beatrice was educated at Barnard College at Columbia University. At the age of eleven she had developed a love of calligraphy, and this grew in her college years to an interest in the history of letter forms. She became acquainted with Bruce Rogers and, on his recommendation, was appointed after graduation to the post of assistant librarian...

Damkerng T.

1:00 AM

> "Over there" is further than "there" and "there" is further than "here."
http://ell.stackexchange.com/a/54569/3281

That's kinda new, but I think it makes sense, thought it's not the over there I thought when I read the OP's sentence.

Anonymous

I think that can be true contextually

Anonymous

Some languages have a two-way proximal-distal distinction

Anonymous

Some languages have a three-way proximal-medial-distal distinction in demonstratives

Anonymous

English speakers learning such languages are often taught to think of the demonstratives as "here, there, and over there"

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Anonymous

1:02 AM

Though that doesn't necessarily work very well for every language with a three-way distinction! :-)

Damkerng T.

:D

Anonymous

So for example we find (I just found this on Google): studyspanish.com/lessons/demonstratives.htm

Anonymous

> este (this one - masculine)
> ese (that one - masculine)
> aquel (that one over there - masc.)

Anonymous

This one, that one, and that one over there!

Damkerng T.

Ahh... Three ranges.

Anonymous

1:04 AM

That's one way people choose to teach these things to students.

Anonymous

Then they would say aquí, ahí, and allí are 'here', 'there', and 'over there'

Anonymous

It's supposed to make intuitive sense to English speakers that 'over there' is further away

Anonymous

I'm not entirely sure why :-)

Damkerng T.

The problem is I think this sense of over there doesn't really exist in English, I guess.

Anonymous

Yeah

Damkerng T.

1:07 AM

(Way over there is more like it, imo.)

Anonymous

You can keep adding distance: way the heck over there

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

I'm not sure what's further than that :-)

Damkerng T.

Maybe we can keep adding more way's to it!

:D

Anonymous

Way, way, way the heck over there

Anonymous

1:09 AM

And then some!

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Jim Reynolds

4:40 AM

Borges describes this example of an alternate taxonomy, taken from an ancient Chinese encyclopædia entitled Celestial Emporium of Benevolent Knowledge.

The list divides all animals into one of 14 categories:

Those that belong to the emperor
Embalmed ones
Those that are trained
Suckling pigs
Mermaids (or Sirens)
Fabulous ones
Stray dogs
Those that are included in this classification
Those that tremble as if they were mad
Innumerable ones
Those drawn with a very fine camel hair brush
Et cetera
Those that have just broken the flower vase

Jim Reynolds

6:56 AM

theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/05/…

Damkerng T.

9:31 AM

ELL status: 15,011 questions

o_O

Jim Reynolds

Why are you tracking that?

Damkerng T.

I wonder if 20 questions a day is real, because I feel like it's actually much lower than that.

Maybe it's because it's on the weekend.

0

A: Is it okay to omit the object in this sentence?

He left me without informing. I don't think there's anything wrong with this sentence. The word "informing" is a noun just as warning and speaking are. The Free Dictionary says informing is also a noun, meaning a speech act that conveys information.

o_O

How about... *He left me without bringing?

Jim Reynolds

I certainly don't judge your unhealthy obsession.

O.o

user116848

Hi Jim and all

Damkerng T.

Hi!

Freddy

9:39 AM

hello

Damkerng T.

-1

Q: Sentence structure - "As..as.."

I've found a sentence that sounds weird to me from ted video. He is talking about why we all need to practice emotional first aid. and here's a sentence. Our minds and our feelings, they're not the trustworthy friends we thought they were. I think this sentence would sound better, if I re...

sentence-construction

Eeek!

Why -1?

I mean, "hi."

@Freddy Hello!

9:42 AM

He left me without informing.

Damkerng T.

Oh, you meant you hello'ed arrowfar.

Jim Reynolds

For virtually all practical purposes, it's not ok.

Freddy

@DamkerngT. Hi

Damkerng T.

Yes.

Jim Reynolds

He was thinking about leaving me. And he was also thinking about informing on his partner to the police.

In the end he did both. He left me without informing.

Maybe! haha

But it's far contrived.

Damkerng T.

9:45 AM

nods -- I think it's a question of how often we can ellipsis the object of transitive verbs.

> "Everybody likes Jim." "No, everybody loves!"

Is that passable?

user116848

So visiting ELU main site once a while and reading some questions/answers there improves my vocabulary and language.

Damkerng T.

I wonder if some folks on ELU will screech "it had to be 'improve'!"

Just thinking, kiddingly...

user116848

Edit time is over unfortunately :)

user116848

But thanks!

Damkerng T.

Unfortunately, indeed!

About the edit, keep in mind that I'm not the best editor in the world anyway. I think maybe you can argue that 'improves' is possible, too.

0

Q: topic that/of/on whether

1a. Many discuss the topic that whether medicine has true benefit on our society. 1b. Many discuss the topic of whether medicine has true benefit on our society. 1c. Many discuss the topic on whether medicine has true benefit on our society. Which one is correct? I am writing to express my v...

word-usage sentence-construction prepositions conjunctions

Assuming they were writing about something going on on a forum, maybe 1d)

> 1d) Many discuss the topic 'whether medicine has true benefit on our society'.

Jim Reynolds

9:58 AM

Yes, probably "improves" is better. :-)

Damkerng T.

Hmm... it's a two-in-one question!

user116848

@JimReynolds I know. Thanks so much Jim :-)

Jim Reynolds

Because we would tend to group together into one concept the visiting and reading.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Yes, I think it's obvious that it was how arrowfar conceptualized his thought.

Jim Reynolds

No ... That should be arrow far conceptualized their thoughts.

Because I think it's arrow + far.

O.o

Damkerng T.

9:59 AM

lol

user116848

Yeah :)

Damkerng T.

> 2) I am writing to express my view on the topic that/of/on whether ...

user116848

By the way @DamkerngT. can I be honest with you? I mean don't mind me saying that.

Jim Reynolds

answer is of and of.

Damkerng T.

Yes, sure!

Jim Reynolds

10:02 AM

17 mins ago, by Damkerng T.

> "Everybody likes Jim." "No, everybody loves!"

Ordinarily, not ok.

How often we can elide not ellipsis. :D

Man_From_India

Oh that day I was confused about the pseudo cleft sentence - What he did was eat/ate their lunch

eat is standard, but ate is acceptable only in non-standard English

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Hmm... I thought elide is only about speech, or so I was told.

Man_From_India

+1, for a nice post! :) -- Though, in my idiolect, the verb for the subordinate VP is less constrained, e.g. "What he did was taught him a lesson" would be acceptable, as the pseudo-cleft is understood to have the associated non-cleft "He taught him a lesson". But my idiolect appears to be non-standard on this issue, w.r.t. 2002 H&P CGEL and the 1985 Quirk et al. Oh, well. (cc. @Araucaria ) — F.E. 15 hours ago

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India After reading your answer, I think it's like it's a kind of ellipsis in CGEL.

Jim Reynolds

Hmm. It has a special meaning pertaining to speech, which I didn't know or had forgotten.

But I submit it can be used generally as well. dictionary.reference.com/browse/elide

Man_From_India

10:07 AM

Another one

For me, if somebody said to me "what John did, was gave me a cat", I probably wouldn't even notice there was anything wrong with it. Whereas if they said was "what John did, was gives me a cat", I would be thinking why doesn't this person know how to speak English? — Peter Shor Jun 7 '14 at 17:46

user116848

@DamkerngT. Well since we are virtual friends here I thought I’d let you know what has been bothering me here for a while.

Damkerng T.

Interesting! (Why the past tense sounds acceptable!)

@arrowfar Go on.

user116848

I apologize if my tone looks harsh

user116848

Here is the thing:

user116848

The thing is it gets a bit grating for me when you discredit/debate everything I say here. I mean I have noticed that no other non-native speaker here does that with me. And then there are many instances when you are wrong afterwards :-)

Man_From_India

10:08 AM

@DamkerngT. See Peter Shor's comment. In that way it might be acceptable. It will go unnoticed :D

user116848

So unless snailboat or some other native speaker is present kindly do not correct me :-)

user116848

Well, I like you here but you know… it takes a toll on my mind sometimes :-)

Jim Reynolds

Example: @Dam never told the truth, ever. 'E lied and 'e lied.

Damkerng T.

@arrowfar Okay, I'll try to stay away from your sentences.

By the way, I think you take things too seriously, not only with me.

Man_From_India

Cool down guys :D (considering Arrow is a male ;-))

Jim Reynolds

10:10 AM

Ha. But that sounds like a criticism itself, Dam!

I know you want to show your positive intent and friendliness.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Please clarify that!

o_O

Jim Reynolds

He's asking a favor. Not to be evaluated or criticized.

Damkerng T.

That's why I said I'll try to stay away from (evaluating or criticizing) his sentences.

Jim Reynolds

The idea of, "You shouldn't take things this way or that way," is itself an evaluative response.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Oh, I just thought that he was being a bit frank with me, so I did the same.

Jim Reynolds

10:13 AM

No one will die. o.0

Damkerng T.

Everyone will. Just not today. :P

Jim Reynolds

There's a difference between saying, "I / we usually have friendly and helpful intents in here" and "This is how you should or shouldn't feel." That's all. I meant to point that out in a light way, myself.

Damn text

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. What he did? Answer: He did eat his lunch So it is What he did is eat his lunch. What he did Answer: He ate his lunch. So What he did is ate his lunch But the version with ate is non-standard.

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India From the two comments, I think it's indeed acceptable, but maybe they will rephrase it in writing.

Man_From_India

As far as I remember yesterday night I got some google book hit with the past tense.

Damkerng T.

10:16 AM

nods

Was it mostly in fiction?

Jim Reynolds

I think in speech, native speakers will often mix those around.

It's funny, because I think I've never considered how the tenses of two clefts should match or not.

So I have to rely on my native percept-o-meter.

And it's very confused with many of those choices!

It makes me think that many of us will speak carelessly in those kinds of cases.

But "is ate" . . .

Damkerng T.

I believe that these marginal sentences (if we may call them so) are challenging for native speakers in any languages.

Jim Reynolds

doesn't seem to work!

Yes. It's one of the delicious advantages of being around non-native speakers.

One of the advantages is that non-natives often use great words or word combinations that we seldom would.

Damkerng T.

lol

Jim Reynolds

I'm completely serious.

ER.

Damkerng T.

10:20 AM

My serious-o-meter is probably broken!

Jim Reynolds

Ha. Yeah.

Reboot!

Boots Dam in the rear access hatch.

Damkerng T.

Is there any nicer way to boot?

Jim Reynolds

Hmm..

How about a soft bunny slipper instead of a boot?

Damkerng T.

Cute enough. :-)

Jim Reynolds

:D

Damkerng T.

10:22 AM

I almost bought a pair of them some time not so long ago!

But back to the topic, I remember that you didn't seem to like What he did was ate ... much.

Jim Reynolds

Right. I don't.

But I could also see myself saying it somehow.

Without thinking.

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Jim Reynolds

I think it could be sort of "set up" in a context.

Maybe . . .

Oh. I think I need a nap!

Damkerng T.

:-O

Is it because of the furniture?

Jim Reynolds

I was just starting to formulate an idea . . . .

Yes!

I think what I need is to have taken a nap earlier. O.o

Damkerng T.

10:25 AM

@JimReynolds And you're better at formulating it in sleep, I presume. :P

@JimReynolds Somehow I sympathize with you.

Jim Reynolds

:-)

I put a lot of effort into sounding authoritative on the long answer I wrote earlier!

I'm going to try a 30-minute hibernation. :D

Man_From_India

@JimReynolds I think u overlooked this sentence :-)

> Our minds and our feelings, they're not as trustworthy friends as we think they are

i think this is a wrong sentence

Jim Reynolds

I agree that it's no good!

Yes. I just tried to suggest that "they're not what we thought they were" is ok.

But I didn't specify that the other was non-standard.

is non-standard. o.o

Damkerng T.

They're = They were/they are. The difference might also be based on whether you mean are or were. — Man_From_India 35 mins ago

Man_From_India

:D

Damkerng T.

10:36 AM

Wait, I think we don't shorten they were as they're.

Man_From_India

Well in that case I am wrong :-(

Damkerng T.

(Isn't it strange that I'm protesting that, and yet I feel fine to write shouldn't've!)

Jim Reynolds

One of his problems is the different meanings that as can have.

Man_From_India

I deleted my comments :-) now I know I am wrong about they're :-)

Jim Reynolds

Come into the swimming pool. The water is not as cold as you think.

He is thinking that way.

The author is saying more like, "The pool is filled with blood, not water as you thought!"

O.O

I'll add a little to my answer when I wake up, perhaps. :D

Man_From_India

10:41 AM

Oh sure, but the answer is just fine.

Damkerng T.

What's strange is that I think:

Man_From_India

Just don't include the difference between the two sentences

Damkerng T.

> Our minds and our feelings, they're not the trustworthy friends we think they are.

is okay.

It's a bit different from the case of They are not the two classmates I thought they were.

> I thought they were the two classmates (I knew, perhaps), but they are not.

Man_From_India

but the following sentence is similar to your "classmate" sentence

> Our minds and our feelings, they're not the trustworthy friends we think they were.

Damkerng T.

The OP's original pushes the thinking part into the past tense.

> Our minds and our feelings, they're not the trustworthy friends we thought they were.

I think we should number them!

> a) Our minds and our feelings, they're not the trustworthy friends we thought they were.

> b) Our minds and our feelings, they're not the trustworthy friends we think they were.

> c) Our minds and our feelings, they're not the trustworthy friends we think they are.

Jim Reynolds

10:47 AM

b not ok.

a and c ok.

It depends on whether we are still thinking they are friends.

Damkerng T.

nods

I think I tend to say c) rather than a).

It's a kind of an assertion. To hedge, I think I would add "probably" or "perhaps" rather than shift it to the past tense.

Jim Reynolds

Unless we assume that we all thought x in the past, but now know better.

Damkerng T.

Indeed.

Jim Reynolds

Smoking tobacco is not the harmless habit we (once) thought it was.

Damkerng T.

16 hours ago, by StoneyB

@snailboat Context, context, context!

Jim Reynolds

10:50 AM

O.O

Damkerng T.

I just wanted to say that context is important. :P

Jim Reynolds

So context is more important that we thought it was?

What we thought was, it was going to be important.

Damkerng T.

For choosing the phrase!

Man_From_India

than :P

Jim Reynolds

Yay!

Damkerng T.

10:52 AM

(imitating MARamezani) @Man_From_India 1 @JimReynolds 0

Man_From_India

Oh today probably I am behaving like a teacher :D

:D

Damkerng T.

11:04 AM

I was thinking for a bit (while eating something!) whether I should explain myself or not.

I think I will not. But my words are here to stay. I didn't lie. I meant no harm. If someone took my words the wrong way, I think I can't do anything about it.

Man_From_India

This is interesting -

0

Q: Is it okay to omit the object in this sentence?

Is the following sentence grammatically correct: He left me without informing.

grammaticality

Damkerng T.

I think it's like @MARamezani once warned me that commenting on answers of some particular users on ELL too much could be received as evil.

@Man_From_India We were talking about object omission an hour ago!

Oh, yes! It's the same question!

Hehe!

Man_From_India

Oh I see...i didn't follow :-)

so what is the conclusion...I think the answer there is completely wrong

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India I brought up the answer!

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. I did?

Hullo world!

Man_From_India

11:09 AM

Anyone think it's right?

Hi @MARamezani....

Damkerng T.

@MARamezani I remember you did. Maybe more than once. :-)

MARamezani

o.0

Damkerng T.

2 hours ago, by Damkerng T.

0

A: Is it okay to omit the object in this sentence?

He left me without informing. I don't think there's anything wrong with this sentence. The word "informing" is a noun just as warning and speaking are. The Free Dictionary says informing is also a noun, meaning a speech act that conveys information.

@MARamezani So I try to write (correction or rhetoric) comments less.

MARamezani

If you assume you use ellipsis, many wrong things can be true.

Man_From_India

ELL will be benefited by your comments :-)

Damkerng T.

11:11 AM

@MARamezani Indeed!

@Man_From_India Thanks!

MARamezani

In a lang, I could say he asked. Definitely. But, it's unacceptable since there are no direct or indirect objects.

@DamkerngT. BTW, good thing I did.

Damkerng T.

:D

MARamezani

You could be perceived as picking on people.

Damkerng T.

I guess so!

MARamezani

Though they don't know the Fourth Robot Commandment:

> No thy robot shalt take revenge on a human.

Damkerng T.

11:14 AM

That's an unstated law!

@Man_From_India There is one thing I haven't checked. The definition of informing on The Free Dictionary.

(Hmm... I seem to think of TFD as a website rather than a dictionary!)

Man_From_India

This is what it says - a speech act that conveys information

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. It's a Wikipediaticly dictionarian website.

Damkerng T.

Oh, interesting! a speech act that conveys information That perhaps makes it possible.

Man_From_India

In that case I think informing can be used without an object but consider this -

It is a noun: it is a gerund, a nonfinite (untensed) verbform which acts simultaneously as a noun and a verb. To the best of my knowledge inform can only be used intransitively with the sense betray associates or acquaintances to the police. "Informing earns a swift and terrible punishment from the gang." — StoneyB 11 hours ago

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Man_From_India

11:20 AM

StoneyB says the noun is only limited to some particular meaning.

So if we go by his definition, we have to use an object

Damkerng T.

But what if in the OP's context (which is unclear), they said that to mean, "He left without (such) informing."

Such informing that could earn a swift and terrible punishment from the gang.

Man_From_India

Again context :-)

Damkerng T.

Indeed!

Man_From_India

Ah got some real examples

OED says something about it

I think Khan is correct in his answer

This OED is not very up to date

MARamezani

Yawning Meta.ELL has surely turned into some crappy creepy place.

@Man_From_India Again, one could argue these things are correct.

Damkerng T.

11:27 AM

@MARamezani In what way?

Lots of downvotes?

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. Nothing new.

BBBOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN‌NNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!

Damkerng T.

Oh, no!

Your information digesting capacity way exceeds all stacks combined!

MARamezani

Anyways, as I was saying, the pedantic linguists might argue that the sentence is unacceptable.

I don't say they're wrong. I don't say they're right.

@DamkerngT. Huh?

Damkerng T.

@MARamezani Nothing is new for you now!

That's what I meant.

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. MWAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Man_From_India

11:58 AM

0

Q: "Should have done“ vs. "would have done”

Collins COBUILD English Grammar 5.134 You use should with have to say that you expect something to have happened already. Dear Mom, you should have heard by now that I’m O.K. You also use should with have to say that something was expected to happen, although it has not...

modal-verbs

MARamezani

Well, I for one, think that the meaning changes drastically.

Damkerng T.

Yay, our modal guy is back!

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